Is our plan flawed?

[DON]

2 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

No he should have said “Molson fire me and keep paying me for the good of the team - because it’s all about team and I’m a team first guy”

Thanks Eeyore, quite surprising cynical comment, so unlike you. Why so bitter?

[johnnyhasbeen]

6 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

This is the point we're not retooling we're rebuilding. If we're not going to be playoff contending for another 3 years do we need Price and Weber on this team?

How do you expect to replace Weber? Also I said 2 years. The retooling has been done. The prospects are in the tank. This team should be a serious team in a year or two. If not, that is when you trade away your assets. Nobody in contention this year has the cap space to take on Price or Weber. This is not ps4. I am fine with the road being travelled. I am become sick of the Montreal fans though and understand why no UFAs want to put up with them. Next time you post you should realise that NHL players have phones too. They read this shit. Would you want to play for the current fan base? 

[Commandant]

4 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

He got Domi last year, he got Armia last year.  I think those 2 additions definitely improved the team last year. 

 

And tatar.

 

Hf89 tries to say hes unbiased will give bergevin credit... but he doesnt.  Everything bad is his fault and everything good was luck.  Its bs

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

3 hours ago, johnnyhasbeen said:

How do you expect to replace Weber? Also I said 2 years. The retooling has been done. The prospects are in the tank. This team should be a serious team in a year or two. If not, that is when you trade away your assets. Nobody in contention this year has the cap space to take on Price or Weber. This is not ps4. I am fine with the road being travelled. I am become sick of the Montreal fans though and understand why no UFAs want to put up with them. Next time you post you should realise that NHL players have phones too. They read this shit. Would you want to play for the current fan base? 

 

I agree, I am good with the road being travelled right now. I am not sure what fans expect MB to do at this point in time. The last thing I want him to do is to sacrifice the future to get a little better now.  

[Habsfan89]

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

And tatar.

 

Hf89 tries to say hes unbiased will give bergevin credit... but he doesnt.  Everything bad is his fault and everything good was luck.  Its bs

No I said they were good trades and good returns. But the reason behind those trades were because of mistakes made by Bergevin.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

7 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

No I said they were good trades and good returns. But the reason behind those trades were because of mistakes made by Bergevin.

 

What mistakes.  He got Armia for virtually nothing because he had cap room. You could say drafting Galchenyuk was a mistake at three but it was a crappy draft year,  does anyone remember who was drafted one and two?   I think it was just time for a change for Max Pac and he got a great return. 

[Chris]

What mistakes? 

 

How about putting garbage on the ice year after year, MB will have missed the playoffs 5 out of 8 years. 

 

MB has made some good deals, a couple great deals and a bunch of meaningless deals and signings and a few really bad ones. 

 

Ultimately his teams have been worse since he started, he has been here close to 8 years, not even a sniff of a good playoff team 

 

 

[Trizzak]

4 minutes ago, Chris said:

What mistakes? 

 

How about putting garbage on the ice year after year, MB will have missed the playoffs 5 out of 8 years.* 

 

MB has made some good deals, a couple great deals and a bunch of meaningless deals and signings and a few really bad ones. 

 

Ultimately his teams have been worse since he started, he has been here close to 8 years, not even a sniff of a good playoff team** 

*4 out of 8 assuming they miss this season.

 

**Two 1st round exits, one 2nd round exit, and one 3rd round exit (when they lost Price.)

[hab29RETIRED]

8 hours ago, DON said:

Thanks Eeyore, quite surprising cynical comment, so unlike you. Why so bitter?

i guess is shoaled be doing fist pumps, high fives and back flips on how great the team is right?

[DON]

8 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

i guess is shoaled be doing fist pumps, high fives and back flips on how great the team is right?

No, but 100% cynical posts year after year are bit much, dont you think? I cant even recall anything positive you have ever posted yet you call yourself a fan? I just dont get it, all knew the team was mediocre and many here predicted Habs to miss playoffs. So why keep harping on it, we all know the teams weaknesses, this team was in the basement just 2 years ago, as it was in 2012 when Bergy took over and no one here expects team to quickly become an elite powerhouse. How they get there is debatable, but the need to simply put pessimistic spin on everything I just dont understand?

[alfredoh2009]

8 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

i guess is shoaled be doing fist pumps, high fives and back flips on how great the team is right?

back flips are overrated

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

46 minutes ago, DON said:

No, but 100% cynical posts year after year are bit much, dont you think? I cant even recall anything positive you have ever posted yet you call yourself a fan? I just dont get it, all knew the team was mediocre and many here predicted Habs to miss playoffs. So why keep harping on it, we all know the teams weaknesses, this team was in the basement just 2 years ago, as it was in 2012 when Bergy took over and no one here expects team to quickly become an elite powerhouse. How they get there is debatable, but the need to simply put pessimistic spin on everything I just dont understand?

 

We were expected to be a bubble team, not a lottery squad, which is what we're shaping up to be. Of course, injuries play a key role in that outcome, but if you're an old sour-puss like me, you also remember that MB did very little to improve the team over the summer, even though the team was a failure last season. When I kept pointing this out, people told me, 'don't be so impatient, there's lots of time to improve the team before the deadline.' Turns out there wasn't lots of time at all, was there?

 

In terms of a more general attitude problem, if I'm being honest, I still blame Bergevin for failing to take the excellent hand he inherited in 2012 and turning it into a legit contender. Instead, he let its two top-6 C age out and we were left with a bottom-dwelling suction eel. We never got to see Gainey-Gauthier Rebuild 3.0 come to full fruition, because Bergevin was not able to find even a decent 2nd-line C. Instead of serious playoff runs after 2015, therefore, we got four out of five years with playoffs missed.

 

If this is your interpretation of the past decade, then it's hard to get up and wave the pom-poms for Bergevin - although for my part, I believe the record shows that I *have* credited him with good moves when warranted.

 

Indeed, I will admit that most of Bergevin's moves have been good once he got the stupid Drouin trade out of his system. Some of them have been superb (e.g., Domi). But he still did not improve the team from last year and so some of the blame for this season's emerging disaster rests on him. Beyond that, while I certainly agree we shouldn't eviscerate the system for immediate help, I'm also not as convinced that our future is as guaranteed super-shiny as the rhetoric suggests. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. So again, hard to be incredibly chipper if that's your take on things.

 

Just my attempt to explain why some of us might be less than upbeat re: the Montreal Canadiens.

 

 

 

 

 

[sbhatt]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

We were expected to be a bubble team, not a lottery squad, which is what we're shaping up to be. Of course, injuries play a key role in that outcome, but if you're an old sour-puss like me, you also remember that MB did very little to improve the team over the summer, even though the team was a failure last season. When I kept pointing this out, people told me, 'don't be so impatient, there's lots of time to improve the team before the deadline.' Turns out there wasn't lots of time at all, was there?

 

In terms of a more general attitude problem, if I'm being honest, I still blame Bergevin for failing to take the excellent hand he inherited in 2012 and turning it into a legit contender. Instead, he let its two top-6 C age out and we were left with a bottom-dwelling suction eel. We never got to see Gainey-Gauthier Rebuild 3.0 come to full fruition, because Bergevin was not able to find even a decent 2nd-line C. Instead of serious playoff runs after 2015, therefore, we got four out of five years with playoffs missed.

 

If this is your interpretation of the past decade, then it's hard to get up and wave the pom-poms for Bergevin - although for my part, I believe the record shows that I *have* credited him with good moves when warranted.

 

Indeed, I will admit that most of Bergevin's moves have been good once he got the stupid Drouin trade out of his system. Some of them have been superb (e.g., Domi). But he still did not improve the team from last year and so some of the blame for this season's emerging disaster rests on him. Beyond that, while I certainly agree we shouldn't eviscerate the system for immediate help, I'm also not as convinced that our future is as guaranteed super-shiny as the rhetoric suggests. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. So again, hard to be incredibly chipper if that's your take on things.

 

Just my attempt to explain why some of us might be less than upbeat re: the Montreal Canadiens.

 

Your thoughts echo mine as I look at this team and the now near sure fate of missing the playoffs yet again.  In a nutshell, he went into the season with pretty much the same squad that missed the playoffs last season (minor tweaks were all he accomplished imo), so to expect a better result was a stretch.  I didn't see anything from our young players last season that made me believe they would take a quantum leap in their development this season, so to come into this season banking on that and little else to improve the team baffled me.  It's hard to accept as early as Jan 5th that your team is playing out the string pretty much, but here we are with only an 11.9% chance to make the playoffs ( http://www.sportsclubstats.com/NHL.html ).

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

We were expected to be a bubble team, not a lottery squad, which is what we're shaping up to be. Of course, injuries play a key role in that outcome, but if you're an old sour-puss like me, you also remember that MB did very little to improve the team over the summer, even though the team was a failure last season. When I kept pointing this out, people told me, 'don't be so impatient, there's lots of time to improve the team before the deadline.' Turns out there wasn't lots of time at all, was there?

 

In terms of a more general attitude problem, if I'm being honest, I still blame Bergevin for failing to take the excellent hand he inherited in 2012 and turning it into a legit contender. Instead, he let its two top-6 C age out and we were left with a bottom-dwelling suction eel. We never got to see Gainey-Gauthier Rebuild 3.0 come to full fruition, because Bergevin was not able to find even a decent 2nd-line C. Instead of serious playoff runs after 2015, therefore, we got four out of five years with playoffs missed.

 

If this is your interpretation of the past decade, then it's hard to get up and wave the pom-poms for Bergevin - although for my part, I believe the record shows that I *have* credited him with good moves when warranted.

 

Indeed, I will admit that most of Bergevin's moves have been good once he got the stupid Drouin trade out of his system. Some of them have been superb (e.g., Domi). But he still did not improve the team from last year and so some of the blame for this season's emerging disaster rests on him. Beyond that, while I certainly agree we shouldn't eviscerate the system for immediate help, I'm also not as convinced that our future is as guaranteed super-shiny as the rhetoric suggests. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. So again, hard to be incredibly chipper if that's your take on things.

 

Just my attempt to explain why some of us might be less than upbeat re: the Montreal Canadiens.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think that's a very fair post. I think the only difference between your outlook and mine is that I am trying to focus on what MB should do going forward?  Who is available to help the team and what is the cost?  You spend a little more time looking back.   As much as I admire Gainey the hockey player and person, his trade of McDonagh and Higgins for Gomez was a head scratcher. 

[xXx..CK..xXx]

15 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

You could say drafting Galchenyuk was a mistake at three but it was a crappy draft year,  does anyone remember who was drafted one and two?   

I definitely remember that the 1st overall was Nail Yakupov, and he turned out great 🙂 

 

The only thing I feel on the topic is that I don’t focus all my energy and attention on Bergevin when it comes to the Habs.

 

When the Habs picked up Kovalchuk, I can say that I’m generally on the upper echelon of content (happy) with the move compared to an average person. With that being said, my mind doesn’t immediately go “Wow Bergevin, you’re a great GM”. It looks at the impact the move has on the organization and although expectations just remain low, we need players with talent on this team. Domi is the most talented by far right now, and that shouldn’t happen on most teams. Despite age, Kovalchuk is right there already in terms of skill level. 
 

When a move is made that I don’t necessarily like.... I’ll pick the Sergachev move because I felt as though he was someone who (in the long term) had potential to replace a huge void in losing Markov, I also don’t think about Bergevin immediately. 
 

I think about the organization as a whole and what impact it has.
 

Ironically, another move I would have wanted to criticize at all costs was when Pacioretty was traded. The thing Bergevin did though, was get an actual player I already liked in Tatar... Many people say that this move was lucky, but I feel as though I’m in the minority who actually accepted the trade simply because we at least got an already ready NHLer back when we lost Pacioretty. If I had a positive opinion of Tatar even at that juncture (after his time in Vegas), I think it’s possible our organization did as well. The addition of Suzuki was actually the bonus in my opinion. I liked Pacioretty a lot but the point again is that the trade didn’t make me think about Bergevin whatsoever despite me wanting to rage on anyone who would have contemplated trading him. 
 

It seems as though I’m a Bergevin fanatic but I’m not. I actually think he should have been fired if someone were to ask me. I just see that those who have a more negative mindset towards him seem to obsess over him. It’s fine and understandable to do this when the GM makes a move that is questionable. He’s done a few things like leave cap space on the table and take too much time to fill voids. Perhaps a little to stringent on contract negotiations considering we had cap space available as a result as well. The last week, however, which is the freshest timeframe in our minds has been quite great on his part and yet we still manage to bring up negative things that he’s done in the past... or even worse, criticize the solid moves he did make. All because our version of GMing the team from our mobile device is different from others. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

42 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I definitely remember that the 1st overall was Nail Yakupov, and he turned out great 🙂 

 

 

Living in Edmonton, there are bad memories of that draft. If you look at that draft (2012), there are so many that didn't make it. Not only did Edmonton take Yakupov #1 (complete bust or you could make the case for bad development),  they ended up trading a #1 pick (turned out to be Barzal) and a #2 pick  to the Islanders  for the #4 pick in 2012 (Griffin Reinhart),  another complete bust.  Chiarelli made some bonehead moves but that one really turned out bad. 

 

Kovalchuk was pretty much a zero risk move, he seems really determined to do well, I was impressed with his interview. I hope he proves everyone wrong.  I agree with much of your post. 

[Link67]

I find it hilarious that Bergevin is able to stay poised with the plan to build through youth, despite injuries knocking us down in the standings, compared to half the fanbase. 

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

1 minute ago, Link67 said:

I find it hilarious that Bergevin is able to stay poised with the plan to build through youth, despite injuries knocking us down in the standings, compared to half the fanbase. 

agree totally...

 

After a great 3-1 road trip in Western Canada and holding onto 2nd in the division after righting an 0 and 8 run with a 7-3 run, we fast forward 5 games and another injury to our #1 goalscorer and here we go again with fans going crazy. Some can be so fickle its tiresome.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Cucumber's point is that MB should have done something to improve this team in the summer and he didn't (even if he tried). We played teams hard and had success when we were healthy, and if MB had made the needed upgrade our season might have been very different.

 

As it stands now, considering our injuries and the apparent plan to wait until we are rescued by our youth sometime in the future (if that day ever comes) we may as well prune our roster at the deadline. I don't want a scorched earth rebuild but why hang on to players that won't be part of the future?

 

Trade Price - Habs29 has a good case for Calgary being a logical fit for Price and I could see a deal being made there. Tandem Primeau until he is ready for full time duties

 

Trade Tatar - We have plenty of depth on the wings and I think Tatar's value is fairly high (I frankly think that his value is higher than it should be)

 

Look at trading some of the depth guys like Byron, Weal if there is interest.

[tomh009]

Does Petry still have decent trade value?

[PMAC]

4 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Cucumber's point is that MB should have done something to improve this team in the summer and he didn't (even if he tried). We played teams hard and had success when we were healthy, and if MB had made the needed upgrade our season might have been very different.

 

As it stands now, considering our injuries and the apparent plan to wait until we are rescued by our youth sometime in the future (if that day ever comes) we may as well prune our roster at the deadline. I don't want a scorched earth rebuild but why hang on to players that won't be part of the future?

 

Trade Price - Habs29 has a good case for Calgary being a logical fit for Price and I could see a deal being made there. Tandem Primeau until he is ready for full time duties

 

Trade Tatar - We have plenty of depth on the wings and I think Tatar's value is fairly high (I frankly think that his value is higher than it should be)

 

Look at trading some of the depth guys like Byron, Weal if there is interest.

 

I think trading your franchise goalie and top scorer is pretty scorched earth.

I don't believe that there are many teams with the cap space or inclination to give up significant assets for Price. A Price trade would be more likely to involve a minimal return with Montreal retaining salary. I am no longer opposed to a Price trade in principle, if, (no pun intended) the Price is right, but we also need to get a legit NHL goalie back because rushing Primeau is a recipe for disaster. In short, I don't see a Price trade this season. 

 

The club has to make a decision on Tatar. Resign or trade him. Either way it needs to be done well before he becomes UFA at the end of next season.

The outflow if we are out of the playoffs by the deadline ( and yes, I know that may people already consider the playoffs out of reach) should be a number of players like Thompson, Byron, Weal, Cousins, Folin, Kulak, Weise, Kovalchuck ( if he can perform). Players like Petry or Tatar should only be traded now if the return is astronomical. 

[tomh009]

Tatar is indeed the leading scorer, but not by much. Gallagher, Drouin, Domi, Weber and Danault are all within 15% of his PPG. Our strength is in balanced scoring, so giving up Tatar is surely a smaller impact than having, say, Gallagher, Drouin and Armia all injured all at the same time.

 

Price, yes, we would surely need to retain some salary. But can we get something in return? Just for freeing up cap space, it doesn't make sense.

 

Now, there are some UFA goalies available next summer, so finding a reasonable netminder seems to be a feasible task.

https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2021/caphit/all/goalies&signing-status=ufa

[Prime Minister Koivu]

As we get closer and closer to not making the playoffs again (I still hope we do but things are looking bleak) why keep assets that won't be part of the future?

 

I'm thinking that Price would currently return us a 1st, prospect and cap garbage - I would consider eating some of Price's cap for another 1st. Price is struggling now and I'm not sure what he will look like in 3 years.

 

Tatar is our top scorer, playing top minutes including PP time. I think that his value is much higher than his actual worth is so that is why I think he should be traded.

 

This is not scorched earth (that would be Weber, Tatar, Gallagher, Petry, Price etc). What I'm proposing is asset management to maximize our chances for the near future.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

48 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

As we get closer and closer to not making the playoffs again (I still hope we do but things are looking bleak) why keep assets that won't be part of the future?

 

I'm thinking that Price would currently return us a 1st, prospect and cap garbage - I would consider eating some of Price's cap for another 1st. Price is struggling now and I'm not sure what he will look like in 3 years.

 

Tatar is our top scorer, playing top minutes including PP time. I think that his value is much higher than his actual worth is so that is why I think he should be traded.

 

This is not scorched earth (that would be Weber, Tatar, Gallagher, Petry, Price etc). What I'm proposing is asset management to maximize our chances for the near future.

I was just thinking that while I think Price has been off his game for a long time, there still aren’t many goalies of Price’s caliber throughout the league. Perhaps anywhere between 0 and 6. I worry about the time that comes after Price’s departure. It’s funny to me that in certain areas Halak seems to still be one of the better goalies in the league statistically. Why couldn’t we have kept both? (rhetorical) Then again, he’s on a solid Boston team. This ties in with my sentiment that there aren’t many goalies in the league that I would trust on the Habs any more than Price. He hasn’t been great but there are some other goalies in the league who look better than they should, due to the team in front of them. It’s not only him, but I’ve always felt that way about Murray on Pittsburgh as an example even though he had a good junior career as well. It’s also entirely possible that Price is on a permanent downswing, and in that case moving him would be clever. I don’t have that crystal ball though and can only imagine that our next goalie of the organization will fare worse than Carey Price.

[DON]

2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

 Price is struggling now and I'm not sure what he will look like in 3 years. Most goalies dont have to deal with 2 on none during a PP, he has had the most shots and scoring opportunities against also...so i think the team in front of him isnt helping much and he has stood on his head and still had losses lately. Why he is basically rated as 2nd best goalie in NHL.

 

Tatar is our top scorer, playing top minutes including PP time. I think that his value is much higher than his actual worth is so that is why I think he should be traded. He is 29 and consistently on the scoresheet,  so unless a highish 1st pick is part of offer for him, i would try and keep him for next season at least.