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Habs' prospect pool


tomh009

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Just now, Chris said:

Yea, only team team not to draft a 70 point player under his regime, 

 

doing a bang up job 


Yes. Price was a poor pick because he has yet to score 70 points in his career.

 

 

 

/s

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Don’t mean to diffuse the happiness #habs fans have regarding the latest NHL draft history report BUT Timmins has been responsible for AS since 2003. In 17 years, not 1 of his drafted players have reached 70 Pts in a season. Only 3 have reached 60; PK, Streit, Patch. @SnipingSam

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Why is the line 70 points?

 

How many have drafted Norris winners?  Norris nominees? 35 goal scorers? Vezina winners? Nominees? Hart Trophy winners?

 

Whats more important a Hart Trophy or 70 points?  A norris or 70 points?

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2 minutes ago, Chris said:

I wouldn't call Pleks elite 

 

above average. not elite 

 

Changing the goal posts.  You said 70 points.  You didnt say elite.

 

Facts matter.

 

If you said elite... id say norris and vezina and hart winners/nominees are the definition of elite.

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8 minutes ago, Chris said:

why would you call subban elite? He had 1 really good year

 

 

Subban was elite for 6 years and a very good defenceman for another 3. His game cratered prematurely, probably due to injuries and a first step that was never high-end. But retroactively acting like he was never elite except for one freak year is ridiculous revisionist history.

 

Timmins also drafted McDonagh. That's two top-end D-men.

 

That being said, the Habs have chronically failed to draft or develop a single elite offensive player over his entire time as head of scouting. The closest we came is MaxPac. This is quite remarkable - you'd think that he'd have hit the jackpot at least once by sheer fluke - and it *is*, with all due respect to Commandant, a legitimate beef. The fanbase is so starved for an impact offensive player that we swoon over a 36-year-old Kovalchuk, for heaven's sake.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Chris said:

why would you call subban elite? He had 1 really good year

 

 

He has been nominated for the Norris 3 times... with 1 win.

 

Yes... thats elite.  Being named a top 3 dman in the NHL in 3 different years is elite.

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He was drafted by the habs... was before timmins... my bad.

 

See... i can admit i was wrong.

 

Now you can try with the Backup goalies, Claude julien,  tanking the last 20 games and your other fake stats.... ill wait.

 

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ok, i actually think the ranger stat was wrong, i beleive it was for the rangers themselves, not all teams 

 

CJ i still think im correct on that one, it said full seasons, he only coached a part time year his first year, but i'll admit i wrong 

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1 hour ago, Chris said:

Don’t mean to diffuse the happiness #habs fans have regarding the latest NHL draft history report BUT Timmins has been responsible for AS since 2003. In 17 years, not 1 of his drafted players have reached 70 Pts in a season. Only 3 have reached 60; PK, Streit, Patch. @SnipingSam

In Trevor Timmins' time with the CH, he has drafted the following on the top 50:

A.Kostitsyn, Urquhart (bust), Chipchura, Price (elite), Latendresse, Fischer (bust), Maxwell (bust), McDonagh (elite), Pacioretty (elite), Subban (elite), Leblanc (bust), Tinordi (bust), Beaulieu (bust), Collberg (bust), McCarron (bust), DeLaRose, Fucale (bust), Scherbak (bust), Juulsen, Sergachev (potential to be elite)

 

=> That's a 50% success rate and 4 or 5 elite picks

 

To me, it is the number of picks traded away that Timmins didn't have to hedge his late 1st round gambles:

No 2nd in 2004, No 1st in 2008, No 2nd in 2009, No 2nd in 2010, No 2nd in 2011, No 2nd in 2012, No 2nd in 2014, No 2nd in 2015, No 2nd in 2016

 

That is nine top 50 picks, or half a dozen core players that he did not get a chance to draft.

 

I do not think the problem is Drafting or Timmins at all.

 

 

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I think the blame falls on both scouting and development, but IMO more so on development.  More specifically on how the Habs organization handles their prospects (although Lefebvre was a terrible development coach).  I've never been a big fan of rushing prospects to the NHL.  A year or two of seasoning isn't going to hurt a player's development unless that player has nothing left to prove at the lower level.  Take Cole Caufield for example.  There are some fans already to pencil him in to the lineup when his NCAA season ends.  He's had a good season in the NCAA no doubt, but is he strong enough to play in the NHL?  Has his defensive game improved to the point where Julien isn't going to be constantly benching him for mistakes or limiting his ice time to where he becomes irrelevant?  Has his skating improved enough?  My point is that he hasn't dominated the NCAA and he still has the same question marks to his game now as he did when he was drafted.  I'm sure there has been some improvement, but has there been enough?  Would another year in the NCAA where he can work on getting bigger/stronger, faster/quicker/more elusive, and more defensively responsible hurt his development?

 

I realize that a lot of teams rush players to the NHL and that sometimes it works out.  I don't like it when the Habs do it with high end talent though.  If they want to rush a low ceiling prospect to the NHL, go nuts.  I'd rather see them take their time with the high ceiling guys though.  I'm a strong believer in developing through lots of ice time and opportunities as opposed to sheltered minutes and limited games.  Undeveloped prospects should be at a level where development is the priority.  The priority in Montreal is to make the playoffs and not cost the team points in the standings.  As a result, some prospects end up getting limited roles/ice time/opportunities which can adversely affect their development IMO.

 

In conclusion, I believe that the Habs would have more success with their prospects if they were a little more patient with their development.  This doesn't mean that Timmins and the scouting staff is off the hook either.  It's not like I/we always agree with who the Habs pick.  I also think that some of these prospects have to take some responsibility for busting as well (could've had a better work ethic/attitude etc.).  

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1 hour ago, John B said:

I think the blame falls on both scouting and development, but IMO more so on development.  More specifically on how the Habs organization handles their prospects (although Lefebvre was a terrible development coach).  I've never been a big fan of rushing prospects to the NHL.  A year or two of seasoning isn't going to hurt a player's development unless that player has nothing left to prove at the lower level.  Take Cole Caufield for example.  There are some fans already to pencil him in to the lineup when his NCAA season ends.  He's had a good season in the NCAA no doubt, but is he strong enough to play in the NHL?  Has his defensive game improved to the point where Julien isn't going to be constantly benching him for mistakes or limiting his ice time to where he becomes irrelevant?  Has his skating improved enough?  My point is that he hasn't dominated the NCAA and he still has the same question marks to his game now as he did when he was drafted.  I'm sure there has been some improvement, but has there been enough?  Would another year in the NCAA where he can work on getting bigger/stronger, faster/quicker/more elusive, and more defensively responsible hurt his development?

 

I realize that a lot of teams rush players to the NHL and that sometimes it works out.  I don't like it when the Habs do it with high end talent though.  If they want to rush a low ceiling prospect to the NHL, go nuts.  I'd rather see them take their time with the high ceiling guys though.  I'm a strong believer in developing through lots of ice time and opportunities as opposed to sheltered minutes and limited games.  Undeveloped prospects should be at a level where development is the priority.  The priority in Montreal is to make the playoffs and not cost the team points in the standings.  As a result, some prospects end up getting limited roles/ice time/opportunities which can adversely affect their development IMO.

 

In conclusion, I believe that the Habs would have more success with their prospects if they were a little more patient with their development.  This doesn't mean that Timmins and the scouting staff is off the hook either.  It's not like I/we always agree with who the Habs pick.  I also think that some of these prospects have to take some responsibility for busting as well (could've had a better work ethic/attitude etc.).  

At the end of the day, scouting and development fall at the foot of the GM. it was ludicrous how long Lefebve was kept on. That’s on MB.

 

he than hired an AHL coach how is supposed to be good at development and than keeps guys like Poehling and Kk up when they clearly are not ready.  Don’t care about injuries.  Why ruin or hinder a prospects developments, bring up some career AHL’ers or older prospects.
 

I can’t remember habs having a single 18 year old prospect in the last 30 years who was so clearly an elite NHL player that he should have been kept in the NHL.  Don’t care that KK for 32 or how many ever points.  He would have benefited more being put into a position where he is dominating and is considered the man and starts growing more into a mans body.


ditto with Galchenyuk.  He missed almost an entire junior year and should have played out his entire year in the juniors.

 

yes how Thornton had a crappy rookie year and his teammate Samsonov was better initially. But there was a reason he was called jumbo joe.  Physically he was ready.  He had already dominated in junior for a couple of years and with the stupid NHL-Junior rules, could only be in the NHL or the juniors and the AHL is not an option.

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15 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

At the end of the day, scouting and development fall at the foot of the GM. it was ludicrous how long Lefebve was kept on. That’s on MB.

 

he than hired an AHL coach how is supposed to be good at development and than keeps guys like Poehling and Kk up when they clearly are not ready.  Don’t care about injuries.  Why ruin or hinder a prospects developments, bring up some career AHL’ers or older prospects.
 

I can’t remember habs having a single 18 year old prospect in the last 30 years who was so clearly an elite NHL player that he should have been kept in the NHL.  Don’t care that KK for 32 or how many ever points.  He would have benefited more being put into a position where he is dominating and is considered the man and starts growing more into a mans body.


ditto with Galchenyuk.  He missed almost an entire junior year and should have played out his entire year in the juniors.

 

yes how Thornton had a crappy rookie year and his teammate Samsonov was better initially. But there was a reason he was called jumbo joe.  Physically he was ready.  He had already dominated in junior for a couple of years and with the stupid NHL-Junior rules, could only be in the NHL or the juniors and the AHL is not an option.

How old was Latendresse? 18?

Ribeiro was 19

Komisarek came fromU. Of Michigan at 20

Price was 20

McDonagh was 21

 

You have a point about “clearly elite”. In 30 years the CH doesn’t have that type of player.

Kotkaniemi didn’t stay because he was elite. Like Chucky and Gally and Suzuki, he won his spot at training camp; but lost his spot later

 

I don’t blame coaching this year. I think some players didn’t come prepared for the season and that they dragged the team down: KK, Domi, Kulak, Folin, Kincaid 

 

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21 hours ago, revvvrob said:

I have felt that for a very long time, Timmons has made the later round draft selections but the GM has made the first round selection. 
 

this, to me, is why Timmons seems bulletproof - internally, they know the misses weren’t his fault. 

Felt exactly the same.


We already know that Leblanc was not Timmins' pick.


Nobody will ever make me believe that Tinordi was his guy and probably McCarron as well. 

When Tinordi was picked, it was just after the amazing Halak run but got bullied a bit by  Pronger, Coburn, Hartnell and co in the East Final.

When McCarron was picked, the Big Bad Bruins had won the division and reached SC Final.

 

I'm totally convinced that both of these picks were Bergevin's call, trying to adress what was "working best" at the time.

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