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tomh009

Habs' prospect pool

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And their doctors suck too, can’t diagnose a sprained ankle

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1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

They say "A quote without context is a pretext"... or, by stretch, "Pinning development success to the draft guy is disingenuous" 

 

Aha! Great point. What that data indicts is the Habs drafting/development. Hard to parse how to distribute blame between these two pillars. But the point is that they suck at at least one of these, or maybe both.

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35 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Aha! Great point. What that data indicts is the Habs drafting/development. Hard to parse how to distribute blame between these two pillars. But the point is that they suck at at least one of these, or maybe both.

At the end of the day the GM is accountable for both.

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Well, then, arguably the Habs' drafting has always been terrible. Of the five first-overall draft picks since 1963, they have exactly one superstar (Guy Lafleur) and four decent NHL players (Monahan, Plasse, Houle and Wickenheiser). Only one? And that's even without Timmins being involved -- at least we think he was not.

 

 

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1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

Well, then, arguably the Habs' drafting has always been terrible. Of the five first-overall draft picks since 1963, they have exactly one superstar (Guy Lafleur) and four decent NHL players (Monahan, Plasse, Houle and Wickenheiser). Only one? And that's even without Timmins being involved -- at least we think he was not.

 

 


‘Always’ is ridiculous, obviously. Savard did draft some elite players (Chelios, LeClair, Koivu, Roy of course), but - while I think his tenure is often under-rated - most would agree his organization was not great at drafting higher-end offensive talent. After him it’s basically been a long sad tale ranging from horror (Houle) to borderline adequacy (maybe Gauthier).

 

I don’t even know what you’re trying to defend here. If you think the Habs have been elite at drafting and development, then you’re watching very different teams than I am. The results- 25 years of futility - speak for themselves.

 

One point against Timmins is that the drafting history cuts across three GMs and, if memory serves, three different developmental regimes as well. Maybe the common thread really isn’t development so much as drafting, therefore; although considering all the years wasted on that idiot Lefebvre, another of MB’s foxhole bum-buddies, it’s probably unfair to dump all blame on TT.

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10 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

‘Always’ is ridiculous, obviously.


Sorry, I thought the sarcasm was obvious.

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the point is this and I get hindsight is 20/20. We've had a long string of 1st roound picks and these top picks dont make sense when considering the success we've had in later rounds.

 

as an example drafting Gally at #3 but missing out on Wilson, Trouba, Reilly, Lindholm  Forsberg (my pick).

 

I do think that run of bad form is finally over (hopefully).

 

 

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9 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

the point is this and I get hindsight is 20/20. We've had a long string of 1st roound picks and these top picks dont make sense when considering the success we've had in later rounds.

 

as an example drafting Gally at #3 but missing out on Wilson, Trouba, Reilly, Lindholm  Forsberg (my pick).

 

I do think that run of bad form is finally over (hopefully).

 

 

 

The 2012 draft seems to have been unusually erratic. The top four picks were all more or less busts, which can't be the norm, surely. In fact only one of the top 6 turned into an impact guy (the excellent Morgan Reilly).

 

 What gets more troubling is the thought that KK may also turn out to be relatively disappointing (although it's too soon to tell). These sorts of outcomes provide a warning signal to the overly ethusiastic species of 'tanker.' 

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especially since Tcachuk and Hughes were no brainers 

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21 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

the point is this and I get hindsight is 20/20. We've had a long string of 1st roound picks and these top picks dont make sense when considering the success we've had in later rounds.

 

as an example drafting Gally at #3 but missing out on Wilson, Trouba, Reilly, Lindholm  Forsberg (my pick).

 

I do think that run of bad form is finally over (hopefully).

 

 

 

Tampa has had a lot of success in later rounds too and have the same issues with first rounders.

 

The only 1st round pick they have on their team since 2010 is vasilevskiy.  Cal foote is in the AhL. The rest were traded.

 

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9 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The 2012 draft seems to have been unusually erratic. The top four picks were all more or less busts, which can't be the norm, surely. In fact only one of the top 6 turned into an impact guy (the excellent Morgan Reilly).

 

 What gets more troubling is the thought that KK may also turn out to be relatively disappointing (although it's too soon to tell). These sorts of outcomes provide a warning signal to the overly ethusiastic species of 'tanker.' 

don't see how anyone can reasonably come to that conclusion... hes shown great signs of future success but also shown that he needs more time to develop and mature. For heavens sakes he's 19.

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KK will never get op 2 C minutes with CJ as coach, 

 

Danault, on pace for a whopping 46 points or so has that luxury, and Suzuki 

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6 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

don't see how anyone can reasonably come to that conclusion... hes shown great signs of future success but also shown that he needs more time to develop and mature. For heavens sakes he's 19.

 

Boy, every time someone raises doubts about Habs' fans pretties, people freak out.KK is becoming the new Lars Eller in this respect. Poor wee baby Lars could do no wrong, and now neither can KK.

 

I said it was 'too soon to tell.' And it is.

 

What I've also said in past posts is that KK has yet to display much in the way of higher-end skill or creativity. If he were not a 3rd overall pick, nobody would be thinking of him as a future franchise corenerstone based on his actual performance. This is why it is possible to be concerned that he may turn out to be, as I said above, 'relatively disappointing.'

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4 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Tampa has had a lot of success in later rounds too and have the same issues with first rounders.

 

The only 1st round pick they have on their team since 2010 is vasilevskiy.  Cal foote is in the AhL. The rest were traded.

 

vasilensky went in 2012 as well I believe.  Similar to Montreal they went a stretch with later picks that they were unable to cash in on. But if you increase your "2010" to 2008 all of sudden the list gets Hedman and Stamkos added to it. They've also been able to add top end talent like Point and Kucherov and very good players like Killorn etc. now that I think of it, there whole bloody team seems to be drafted in house. 

 

 

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Just now, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

vasilensky went in 2012 as well I believe.  Similar to Montreal they went a stretch with later picks that they were unable to cash in on. But if you increase your "2010" to 2008 all of sudden the list gets Hedman and Stamkos added to it. They've also been able to add top end talent like Point and Kucherov and very good players like Killorn etc. now that I think of it, there whole bloody team seems to be drafted in house. 

 

 

 

They're like Boston, an organization whose sustained excellence makes the Habs look like a sick joke by comparison.

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3 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Boy, every time someone raises doubts about Habs' fans pretties, people freak out.KK is becoming the new Lars Eller in this respect.

 

I said it was 'too soon to tell.' And it is.

 

What I've also said in past posts is that KK has yet to display much in the way of higher-end skill or creativity. If he were not a 3rd overall pick, nobody would be thinking of him as a future franchise corenerstone based on his actual performance. This is why it is possible to be concerned that he may turn out to be, as I said above, 'relatively disappointing.'

I thought my post was actually very level headed... 

 

-he's only 19 yrs old (actually 6th youngest in all of NHL)

-he's shown signs of future success (which he has)

- he needs more time to mature/ develop

 

that is pretty accurate.

 

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2 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

I thought my post was actually very level headed... 

 

-he's only 19 yrs old (actually 6th youngest in all of NHL)

-he's shown signs of future success (which he has)

- he needs more time to mature/ develop

 

that is pretty accurate.

 

 And so is my claim that 'it is too soon to tell' whether he will become the kind of impact player we hoped to get with the #3 overall pick.

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1 minute ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 And so is my claim that 'it is too soon to tell' whether he will become the kind of impact player we hoped to get with the #3 overall pick.

i get ya... 

 

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I have felt that for a very long time, Timmons has made the later round draft selections but the GM has made the first round selection. 
 

this, to me, is why Timmons seems bulletproof - internally, they know the misses weren’t his fault. 

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13 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

vasilensky went in 2012 as well I believe.  Similar to Montreal they went a stretch with later picks that they were unable to cash in on. But if you increase your "2010" to 2008 all of sudden the list gets Hedman and Stamkos added to it. They've also been able to add top end talent like Point and Kucherov and very good players like Killorn etc. now that I think of it, there whole bloody team seems to be drafted in house. 

 

 

 

Tampa does very well in the later rounds (as has Timmins over the years). Which is why judging by first rounders only is not that informative.

 

Vasilevskiy was also tampa's second first round pick that year.  

 

Koekkoek was taken 10th overall and hes a bust.  

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Brett Connoly is another top 5 tampa bust.

 

Again, you cant judge drafting success/failure by only looking at firsts.

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39 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Tampa has had a lot of success in later rounds too and have the same issues with first rounders.

 

The only 1st round pick they have on their team since 2010 is vasilevskiy.  Cal foote is in the AhL. The rest were traded.

 

Tampa has done a fantastic part in developing their players and don’t generally rush in 18 year olds.  I can’t think of anyone other than stamkos and posssibly Hedman who came in in their draft year.  You can draft later if younc give guys a few years to develop in the minors which most of Tampa’s core did - they weren’t rushed in for PR reasons just because the team sucked.

We rushed in Kk, we rushed in Mete, just like we had Riad he’s in latendresse and ribeiro in the gainey regime.  Yzerman also made sure he had good development people, not his buddies he grow up with as kid.  There no friggin way Lefebve would have lasted over a year with Yzerman and you can bet Therrien would never have been hired and I’d the mistake to hire him was made, he would have been fired within his first 3 years. 

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22 minutes ago, revvvrob said:

I have felt that for a very long time, Timmons has made the later round draft selections but the GM has made the first round selection. 
 

this, to me, is why Timmons seems bulletproof - internally, they know the misses weren’t his fault. 

 

I think for pretty much every team, the scouting staff makes the recommendations, but the GM makes the final decision. And a GM (any GM!) is more likely to override the scouting recommendation in the first round, where he (at least believes) he knows the available players well enough to make the call.

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3 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

 

I think for pretty much every team, the scouting staff makes the recommendations, but the GM makes the final decision. And a GM (any GM!) is more likely to override the scouting recommendation in the first round, where he (at least believes) he knows the available players well enough to make the call.

 

Bergevin also has a track record of being very slow to hit the EJECT button on his foxhole buddies, irrespective of results. As long as Timmins can point to *some* sort of indicators of success, he'll probably be sticking around.

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Given the positions we have picked from in the past 10-15 years, I personally don't see Timmins' track record as the cause of our current problems.

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