Gainey's changes

[Peter Puck]

I was watching a replay of the Habs vistory (5-2) over the Bruins in game 1 of the first round of the 2002 playoffs on the nhl network yesterday and was struck by how much the team has changed (and improved) since then.

Here is the Habs roster from the last game of the 2002-2003 season

an 8-2 loss to Carolina in the 2nd round of the playoffs (sorry to remind everyone of that horrible game). I have marked the players still with the team with a *.

Habs Roster May 12, 2002

=====================

Audette

Berezin

Brisebois

Bulis *

Dackell

Dykhuis

Fiset

Gilmour

Juneau

Kilger

Koivu *

Lindsay

Markov *

Odjick

Perreault

Petrov

Quintal

Rivet *

Souray *

Theodore *

Bob Gainey became GM on June 3, 2003. Here is the Habs roster in their final game before Gainey became GM (a 5-4 win over the Rangers).

Habs Roster Saturday April 5, 2003

=====================

Audette

Bouillon *

Brisebois

Bulis *

Dackell

Dwyer

Garon

Hossa *

Koivu *

Komisarek *

McKay

Perreault

Quintal

Ribeiro *

Rivet *

Sundstrom *

Theodore *

Traverse

Ward

Zednik *

When I look at these rosters I get very excited about our team this year and for the next few years. I think every one of the changes is an upgrade except for the loss of Garon. :ghg:

[Edited on 2005/9/7 by Peter Puck]

[Winterlion]

I agree about the improvements (for the most part), but don't you think he should have dropped Koivu? I'm in favor of the experience K offers the team, but isn't it too high a price (money better spent on younger prospects). Also...how much of an asset is Dandenault going to be?

[simonus]

ok... well, i hate to decry comments as heresy, but koivu is the captain. His contract isn't overly long, he will be reevaluated in a few years, he is a very good player and when others are ready to take his place, he will either take a lesser salary/line assignment or move. For now he is worth the money.

Dandenault is a great utility asset who has some degree of upside with added ice time. The lineup might be a bit clogged as to where he fits in, but that issue will be resolved by the end of the year. When we look at the 2006 roster, Dandenault will have found his space and we will be glad to have him. It's pretty fair to assume that he will be a fan favourite over his tenure with the CH.

[Peter Puck]

Actually what I really like about the changes Gainey has made is that he has kept *exactly* the valuable assets we had when he came on board. With the exception of Garon, and possibly Ward I don't think any of the other players who are gone would fit with the current team. Everyone he has kept is an important cog in the surrent team (except Sundstrum?) and none are significantly overpaid except Rivet. Bonk may end up not being worth Garon, but on the other hand he might. I trust Gainey, although not even he knows this for sure. Really, it is amazing what Gainey has accomplished in 2 years.

I think Koivu is a top quality player well worth what we are playing him. The success of the Kovalev-Koivu-Zednik line against Boston shows what they are capable of. Without Koivu we would have to use Ribero as our first line centre and he doesn't seem to mesh well with Zednik. Thus we would probably have to move up another winger and I think it very likely the new first line would be significantly weaker than K-K-Z. Without Koivu, Kovalev (and the 4.5 million we spent on him) is much less valuable.

We only signed Koivu for 1 year at 3.42 million. I think he is a bargain and that he will resign for more next year. Also you (Winterlion) say it would be better to use this money on younger prospects. But we don't have a shortage of younger prospects and so don't really need more money for that.

The question of Dandenault is less clear. There does not appear to be a lot of room for him but I think he will end up as our 3rd or 4th Dman. I agree 100% with simonus that Dandenault will be a valuable asset.

[beckham]

I think the Leafs got Czerkawski for aroung $1 mil on a 1 year deal. Mariusz outscored Kovalev last season.

[simonus]

Damnit! We missed out on czerkawski? Damn Gainey!

[TheBigRedC]

Originally posted by beckham

I think the Leafs got Czerkawski for aroung $1 mil on a 1 year deal. Mariusz outscored Kovalev last season.

True... But lets say there are only 2 players left, Kovalev and Czerkaski, who would you choose. Sure, Kovi had an off year with the Ranger, but he has a fresh start now, and he looked great in the Russain league. He will be good this season and outscore the Polish Prince...

[shortcat1]

I just found this on a 'fans page'. I know it's somewhat dated now (1999 - 2000) but it sure shows how things really can change over the years. It also shows where our team was at at the turn of the millenium.

No. Name Pos Hgt. Wgt. Born Birthplace

6 TRENT McCLEARY C 6.0 180 08/09/72 SWIFT CURRENT,CAN

11 SAKU KOIVU C 5.10 183 11/23/74 TURKU,FIN

14 TREVOR LINDEN C 6.4 210 11/04/70 MEDICINE HAT,CAN

15 DAINIUS ZUBRUS RW 6.03 220 06/16/78 ELEKTRENAI,LIT

17 BENOIT BRUNET LW 5.11 198 08/24/68 STE-ANNE DE BELLEVUE,CAN

20 SCOTT LACHANCE D 6.1 196 10/22/72 CHARLOTTESVILLE,USA

21 BARRY RICHTER D 6.02 200 09/11/70 MADISON,USA

22 ERIC WEINRICH D 6.01 215 12/19/66 ROANOKE,USA

24 CHRISTIAN LAFLAMME D 6.1 210 11/24/76 ST.CHARLES,CAN

26 MARTIN RUCINSKY LW 6.01 205 03/11/71 MOST,CZE

27 SHAYNE CORSON LW 6.01 202 08/13/66 BARRIE,CAN

28 KARL DYKHUIS D 6.03 214 07/08/72 SEPT-ILES,CAN

29 JIM CUMMINS RW 6.02 219 05/17/70 DEARBORN,USA

31 JEFF HACKETT G 6.01 195 06/01/68 LONDON,CAN

32 OLEG PETROV RW 5.8 175 04/18/71 MOSCOW,RUS

34 SERGEI ZHOLTOK C 6.01 187 12/02/72 RIGA,LAT

37 PATRICK POULIN C 6.00 218 04/23/73 VANIER,CAN

40 JESSE BELANGER C 6.0 193 06/15/69 ST-GEORGES...,CAN

41 ERIC FICHAUD G 5.11 175 11/04/75 MONTREAL,CAN

43 PATRICE BRISEBOIS D 6.02 204 01/27/71 MONTREAL,CAN

44 SHELDON SOURAY D 6.4 230 13/07/76 ELK POINT,CAN

45 *ARRON ASHAM RW 5.11 194 04/13/78 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE

46 *MATT HIGGINS C 6.02 188 10/29/77 CALGARY,CAN

47 JUHA LIND LW 5.11 185 01/02/74 HELSINKI,FIN

48 *MILOSLAV GUREN D 6.02 209 09/24/76 UH. HRADISTE,CZE

49 BRIAN SAVAGE LW 6.2 192 02/24/71 SUDBURY,CAN

51 *FRANCIS BOUILLON D 5.08 186 10/17/75 LAVAL,CAN

52 CRAIG RIVET D 6.02 197 09/13/74 NORTH BAY,CAN

60 JOSE THEODORE G 5.11 182 09/13/76 LAVAL,CAN

61 *JASON WARD RW 6.02 192 01/16/79 CHAPLEAU,CAN

63 CRAIG DARBY C 6.03 180 09/26/72 ONEIDA,USA

* - ROOKIE

Aside from the ones still remaining, some of these were not bad players. Not fantastic but not bad either. To my mind those are: Linden, Weinrich, Rucinski, Corson & Hackett & Petrov. Linden never clicked in Montreal. Weinrich was more than an adequate defenseman. Rucinski was very talented player who's ego hurt his skill. Corson was well way past his prime. Hackett was more than an adequate back-up goalie (sort of a 1A type). Petrov also was a skill player but who had a really rough time with the playing style of the NHL (check out his size & weight - no wonder).

Still, there were so many that just didn't work out. It's too bad.

[bombTHEice]

Originally posted by beckham

I think the Leafs got Czerkawski for aroung $1 mil on a 1 year deal. Mariusz outscored Kovalev last season.

Already forgot his last stint with the HABS?

It was not only Kovalev who had an off-season for the Rags, it seems like every guy who signed a big contract there didn't produce as he was supposed to.

BTW. You didn't saw Kovalev last year at the World Cup and World Championships, ey? Ah and Czerkawski - wasn't he the guy who was benched with his Swedish team last season? *fg*

1 million for a guy who was shipped to the AHL while playing in Montréal - GREAT PICK UP LEAFS!!! :bow: :guru:

[Peter Puck]

Originally posted by beckham

I think the Leafs got Czerkawski for aroung $1 mil on a 1 year deal. Mariusz outscored Kovalev last season.

Actually the Leafs are only paying him $500,000 for 1 year. This is about what he is worth. We don't want him back even at that price. We're much better off using whichever of our prospects show the best progress.

[beckham]

Is Kovalev worth 10 times as much? I like Czerkawski, he is a very talented player, and one of the nicest people in the game. The fact that he wasn't used while he was in Montreal is more a reflection on the coaching staff than on him. Both he and Kovalev are high risk players, but the fact remains that the Leafs risked only $500,000 on Mariusz versus Habs risking $18 million on Kovalev. During their regular season "careers" with the Habs, Czerkawski was actually more productive when it comes to that. Czerkawski never got to play in the playoffs in Montreal, but during the regular season he averaged a point every 3 games. Kovalev could only manage a point every 4 games despite getting twice the ice time.

[Edited on 2005/9/10 by beckham]

[Roo-AH! Roo-AH!]

Frankly, I think the real improvements began when Andre Savard took over. But Gainey is doing well, so far, although I STILL think Kovy's deal is too long.

I really believe that Bonk was a steal given Garon's low market value. The question is not whether Garon will end up being a fine goalie; the question is what we could reasonably expect to have gotten for a completely unproven goalie with good potential, given that only a complete idiot would have traded Theodore to keep Garon. Bonk was 1st line centre on Ottawa and will bring HUGE value on a team with talented but fragile centres.

What gives me nightmares is all the talent Reggie Houle traded away. Serge Savard left in place a sound nucleus of proven veterans and up and comers, but Reggie ruined all that overnight. What an idiot.

[Komisarek the Cruncher]

Originally posted by Roo-AH! Roo-AH!

Frankly, I think the real improvements began when Andre Savard took over. But Gainey is doing well, so far, although I STILL think Kovy's deal is too long.

I really believe that Bonk was a steal given Garon's low market value. The question is not whether Garon will end up being a fine goalie; the question is what we could reasonably expect to have gotten for a completely unproven goalie with good potential, given that only a complete idiot would have traded Theodore to keep Garon. Bonk was 1st line centre on Ottawa and will bring HUGE value on a team with talented but fragile centres.

What gives me nightmares is all the talent Reggie Houle traded away. Serge Savard left in place a sound nucleus of proven veterans and up and comers, but Reggie ruined all that overnight. What an idiot.

I agree. Savard is good for scouting and he started to improve our team with the draft, but he was terrible as a GM for contract negociations. Brisebois and Rivet's contracts were disasters. He's better off where he is now.

To add on the Bonk - Garon trade, I still can't believe we got Bonk for an unproven goalie that is 27 years old and only played 43 games in the NHL. On top of it, the Habs had sent him to the minors a few years ago and he had to clear waivers and nobody picked him up, so get Bonk in return, all I got to say is WOW!!!

[beckham]

You guys conveniently forget he took over a team that the previous season had the worst record in 50 years in Montreal, I think. The team of "stars" that Savard put together (putting the team on the verge of bankruptcy) missed the playoffs and started the next year 0-5. That "great" team was a shambles of overpaid, overfed egos that was sucking up Molson's money like there was no tomorrow.

Serge Savard was FIRED, by his patron M. Corey and the fat drunk with the giant turd sized cigar popping out of his face has not been considered for another hockey job since. Reggie righted the ship, cut the payroll by half, got rid of that steroid driven time bomb Roy, made some terrific bargain free agent signings like Zholtok, Petrov, Bouillon etc. and still has a better record than the second "Savardian Stupidity" to hit Montreal, "Bon Homme" Andre.

A. Savard proceeded to undo all the good work that Houle had accomplished, jacked up the payroll and drove new owner Gillett to the verge of bankruptcy with inflated contracts given to a lot of local over the hill players. A. Savard is still hanging around only because Boivin gave him fat contract when he was G.M. and they want to get something for the money.

[Komisarek the Cruncher]

Originally posted by beckham

Is Kovalev worth 10 times as much? I like Czerkawski, he is a very talented player, and one of the nicest people in the game. The fact that he wasn't used while he was in Montreal is more a reflection on the coaching staff than on him. Both he and Kovalev are high risk players, but the fact remains that the Leafs risked only $500,000 on Mariusz versus Habs risking $18 million on Kovalev. During their regular season "careers" with the Habs, Czerkawski was actually more productive when it comes to that. Czerkawski never got to play in the playoffs in Montreal, but during the regular season he averaged a point every 3 games. Kovalev could only manage a point every 4 games despite getting twice the ice time.

[Edited on 2005/9/10 by beckham]

I agree that Czerkawski could be a good risk (although its a very long shot and I doubt it), but please don't compare him to Kovalev, you're insulting our hockey knowledge here. Talent wise, they are worlds apart.

As for not being used in Montreal, do I need to remind you that he was used at the beggining (led the NHL in points at the end of the training camp) but only is mediocre play made him lose playing time to the point of being sent down to Hamilton.

As for Kovalev, I bet you'll be telling everyone how great he is and what a great addition he was after he scores 30+ goals this year.

As for comparing their points per game, please use statistics when there is enough games played so that the stats do mean something. I think its obvious that comparing Czerkawshi's 49 games to Kovalev's 10 games doesn't make sens. Also, as for getting twice the ice time, do I need to remind you that Kovalev was put on the 4th line at the end of the season.

I have never seen you write anything positive about the Habs, why do you spend your time criticizing them? What a fan you are!!!

[Komisarek the Cruncher]

Originally posted by beckham

You guys conveniently forget he took over a team that the previous season had the worst record in 50 years in Montreal, I think. The team of "stars" that Savard put together (putting the team on the verge of bankruptcy) missed the playoffs and started the next year 0-5. That "great" team was a shambles of overpaid, overfed egos that was sucking up Molson's money like there was no tomorrow.

Serge Savard was FIRED, by his patron M. Corey and the fat drunk with the giant turd sized cigar popping out of his face has not been considered for another hockey job since. Reggie righted the ship, cut the payroll by half, got rid of that steroid driven time bomb Roy, made some terrific bargain free agent signings like Zholtok, Petrov, Bouillon etc. and still has a better record than the second "Savardian Stupidity" to hit Montreal, "Bon Homme" Andre.

A. Savard proceeded to undo all the good work that Houle had accomplished, jacked up the payroll and drove new owner Gillett to the verge of bankruptcy with inflated contracts given to a lot of local over the hill players. A. Savard is still hanging around only because Boivin gave him fat contract when he was G.M. and they want to get something for the money.

LOL...now you're really making a fool of your self.

Serge Savard was bitter after he got fired, so he decided to not come back to hockey himself, not because he wasn't considered by other teams. By the way, he preferred handling is business affairs and he's now a multi millionaire, so I guess he made the right choice. Also, we won 2 cups with that "fat drunk with the giant turd sized cigar popping out of his face", so be respectful of the man.

As for Houle (nicknamed Peanut in Montreal because he looked like an idiot and managed the team like an idiot), you are actually praising the man that traded:

1) Roy for Thibault, Kovalenko and Rucinsly...what a trade that turned out to be.

2) Turgeon for Corson...what a trade that turned out to be.

3) Damphousse for a 2nd and 5th pick...what a trade that turned out to be.

Please, when a GM wanted to get rid of some junk or acquire a good player without giving good players in return, Houle was the man to call.

As for André Savard, he's still around because is excellent for scouting. He's the man behind the Nordiques and the Senators and all their great draft picks.

Your comments always go opposite of what everybody else thinks and often don't make sens, I'm starting to realize that your only doing this to stur shit around, at least I hope for your sake.

[beckham]

Houle got his nickname in junior hockey because he was always the smallest (but bravest) player on his team. Don't spread crap.

He made those trades because he had to cut salary. He did that and still managed to keep the team competitive. Roy was having an ego fit, that wasn't Reggies fault. He showed Patrick respect by trading him to the team of his choice and doing it quickly. If you think that Roy was such an institution in Montreal would you rather that Houle kept him sitting for a couple of months while he tried to squeeze the best possible deal out of some bottom feeding team.

Look at Philly trading Roenick PLUS a draft pick just so someone would take his salary. Thibault for a 4th round pick. Bonk for a 3rd round pick. Brisebois given a million bucks to go play somewhere else. Salary dictates a players value on the trade market as much as anything.

[beckham]

I have never seen you write anything positive about the Habs, why do you spend your time criticizing them? What a fan you are!!!

I'm positive about the things I see as being positive moves. I was the most positive poster here after the entry draft, when most seemed worried or undecided. I put Latendresse and Price at the top of the team's prospect list as soon as they were drafted, no one else was willing to do that at the time, although some are starting to say that now. I was the first to suggest that Latendresse had a legitimate chance to start the season in Montreal, over a month before the coachs or media advanced that possibility.

At the same time, I said that Gainey would do well to wait out the free agent frenzy and look for bargains. He didn't and committed $30 million on two players who haven't shown they are worth it in the past. There is no *ing way that Kovalev is worth 10 times as much as Czerkawkski, he has most of the same strengths and weaknesses, and they are about the same age. Dandenault has never been a top 4 defenseman in the NHL but he earns more than Andrei Markov who could be an All Star. Those deals didn't make sense to me when they were made, and they don't make any more sense to me now.

[Trizzak]

yeah it was something different when you actually praised the Habs draft choices. And oddly enough, most of us agree with you this year. (now if only we can get you to come around on Kostitsyn this year...)

But beckham, would you honestly want Mariusz back in Montreal? Mr. 43 - 5 - 9 - 14?

I think we can all agree Kovalev is slightly overpaid, and the contract length is 1 year too long. But I have more faith in his production this year than I do with Mariusz

[beckham]

It didn't have to be Czerkawski, although at $500 k for a single year, you can't really go wrong. He would earn his keep even if he spent the whole year in Hamilton at that rate. As I recall, Mariusz was totally professional when he was demoted the last time round and all his teammates in Hamilton raved about his work ethic while he was there. Can you imagine trying to demote Kovalev if he averages a point every 4 games like he did last time round during the regular season?

But look at all the players out there now who can be had for a song. Kozlov, Freissen, Morozov, Kraft, Orpik, Brylin....I'm sure that Gainey could have signed half a dozen top NHL players for the combined $6.2 million per annum he will be shelling out for Kovalev and Dandeneault for the next 4 years.

[beckham]

I also think that the signing of Mark Streit will turn out to be a very positive move. I think he will be ahead of Dandenault and Komisarek on the depth chart. He will likely only earn about 1/3 of what Dandenault does as well.

[Trizzak]

None of the names you mentioned would have made as formidable 1st line as the Kovalev signing. If we had another roster spot open, I'm sure we would be seeing a trade/signing that you're calling for.

Slightly off topic, what's your take on trading for Bonk?

[Roo-AH! Roo-AH!]

I can't believe that any Habs fan would plump for Czerkawski after his debacle in Montreal. As for Kovy, he has his weaknesses but on any given night can dominate.

Houle: WORST GM IN HABS HISTORY, bar none. Look at the centremen he inherited from Serge Savard (who, incidentally, built a team that was consistently a contender, with the sole exception of the 95 edition): Turgeon, Koivu, Damphousse. He dumped Pierre Turgeon PLUS (!!) CRAIG CONROY for Shane Corson---idiotic in itself---and then watched as Koivu then got targeted by opposing forwards and had his knees destroyed as a result. Great moves. All this, because Houle and that imbecile Mario Tremblay couldn't imagine moving Damphousse---a natural winger anyway---back onto the wing in order to give Turgeon enough ice time. Judas Priest.

Then there's the Roy trade...Roy PLUS (!!) Mike Keane for an unready goalie and total garbage forwards. Then we spent years trying to get a decent goalie and a decent faceoff man to replace Keane. Way to go, Reggie!

...or my personal favourite, trading Lyle Odelein for that idiot Richer---this on a team with a notoriously soft defence...

...how about basically throwing away Vinnie Damphousse, Scott Thoronton, Valeri Bure, and Mark Recchi...

...and let's not forget that he let go Turner Stevenson in a waiver draft IN ORDER TO KEEP PATRICK POULIN!! The mind boggles.

I'm sure there's a multitude of other awful moves that I've forgotten. And that's good, because the sooner Houle is forgotten, the better.

:ghg:

[Komisarek the Cruncher]

Originally posted by beckham

At the same time, I said that Gainey would do well to wait out the free agent frenzy and look for bargains. He didn't and committed $30 million on two players who haven't shown they are worth it in the past. There is no *ing way that Kovalev is worth 10 times as much as Czerkawkski, he has most of the same strengths and weaknesses, and they are about the same age. Dandenault has never been a top 4 defenseman in the NHL but he earns more than Andrei Markov who could be an All Star. Those deals didn't make sense to me when they were made, and they don't make any more sense to me now.

For Dandenault and Markov, I agree that Markov is much better but please don't compare the salary of a UFA with the one of a RFA that as no leverage. It doesn't make any sens. I agree that 1.7M$ per year is a little expensive, but not that much.

As for Kovalev, wait and see, he will blow you away this year. Also, please don't compare players talent as a prorata of their salaries, it doesn't make sens either. Of course Kovalev is not 10 times better than Czerkawski, but that's not how it works. You have to pay a premium on star quality players because they are wanted by all teams and play more ice time. You think that Iginla is 17 times better than Czerkawski? I don't thnik so. I could give you thousands of example like that. If Kovalez gives us 4 seasons of 30+ goals, it will end up being a very good acquisition, but only time will tell.

Gainey is doing a fine job considering the team in inherited from Houle the idiot and I think that the post before mine kind of says it all about Houle as a GM....worst ever in Habs history. What a fiasco it was naming Houle as GM & Tremblay as headcoach.:wall:

[beckham]

You're revisionist history doesn't wash, pal. First of all Turgeon asked to be traded since he didn't want to be even the #2 centre on the team. He regarded himself as a #1 centre, which he probably was. You can argue whether they should have traded him or Koivu, but one had to go. They got Corson and Murray Baron/Dave Manson/Eric Wienrich in return, so the production wasn't that one sided. Most of those players were starting NHLers up until the lockout.

Thibault was part of the deal for Hackett, Kovalenko for Thornton, Recchi brought Zubrus (Zednik) and a 1st (Perezhogin). Damphousse brought Marcel Hossa and a couple of later picks. Hackett brought Sundstrom and the pick that was traded for Bonk, I think. Montreal still has a lot to show for the deals that Houle made years ago for Roy (retired), Turgeon (free agent), Recchi (free agent), Damphuosse (free agent). Even after they traded them, they could have resigned any of those players if they wanted to, and the players wanted to come back to Montreal. I don't think any of them did even though Houle and Trembley were no longer there.

Better to have Zednik, Bulis, Sundstrom, Hossa, Perezhogin, Bonk, and whoever else came indirectly as a result of the deals than nothing which is what they would have had if they kept the players until their contracts expired. None of them wanted to stay in Mtl because of the ethic issues, the language laws, and the oppressive taxes.