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alfredoh2009

Who may be best UFA goalie to target in 2020?

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20 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

fawk off,  Expose Price and  make a deal à la Josh Anderson.

What deal was that?

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45 minutes ago, DON said:

What deal was that?

a draft pick  for the insurance to pick  W. Karlson instead of Josh Anderson in the expansion draft

(yes,  Karlsson went on and pot 40 goals that season for the Knights…)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

fawk off,  Expose Price and  make a deal à la Josh Anderson.

 

Price cannot be exposed in the expansion draft because of the No Movement Clause included in his contract ... If he agrees, I would gladly expose him ... I feel his play has yet to warrant his current cap hit and is only less likely to do so as the years progress. ... and there has been some talk that Price is a target for Seattle so it might not take much to ensure they take him

 

BYW ... who was the "fawk" directed at?

 

 

Edited by GHT120

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30 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

 

Price cannot be exposed in the expansion draft because of the No Movement Clause included in his contract ... If he agrees, I would gladly expose him ... I feel his play has yet to warrant his current cap hit and is only less likely to do so as the years progress. ... and there has been some talk that Price is a target for Seattle so it might not take much to ensure they take him

 

BYW ... who was the "fawk" directed at?

 

 

Damn you're right,  the NMC.  Shit.

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14 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

Damn you're right,  the NMC.  Shit.

BUT ... given it is close to "home" he may well agree to go ... if necessary, going into a SERIOUS re-set (trading Weber and Tartar ... taking on a couple of short-term bad contracts for a good payoff) might convince him ... but expect that means a new GM

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53 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

BUT ... given it is close to "home" he may well agree to go ... if necessary, going into a SERIOUS re-set (trading Weber and Tartar ... taking on a couple of short-term bad contracts for a good payoff) might convince him ... but expect that means a new GM

You know he might actually be willing to go there - from what I understand he was staying in Washington state during the shutdown, so he may have a home there. But I wouldn’t want to just give him for nothing but cap room.

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

BUT ... given it is close to "home" he may well agree to go ... if necessary, going into a SERIOUS re-set (trading Weber and Tartar ... taking on a couple of short-term bad contracts for a good payoff) might convince him ... but expect that means a new GM

Even at his salary, losing an asset like Price for nothing in return would be some kind of very very awful management.

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11 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

Even at his salary, losing an asset like Price for nothing in return would be some kind of very very awful management.

Habs tried something like that before with a goalie, didnt turn out well for next 27yrs and counting.

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Athletic list top 10 drafted goalies

5. Cayden Primeau, G, 20 (Montreal Canadiens — 199th overall, 2017)

Primeau had a bit of an up and down rookie season at the pro level but that’s to be expected for most prospects, even the best among them. It can be easy to forget that he’s only 20 and he has an August birthday because it feels like he has been around forever. I liked the way he started and finished the year, which included a nice run of play at the end of February and into March before the shutdown. I don’t think he has to be as aggressive in the net as he is, because it can pull him out of position or force him into tough saves, but Primeau has the size and the technical skill on his feet or in his butterfly to stay involved in the play and recover from mistakes.

image.png

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1 hour ago, DON said:

Athletic list top 10 drafted goalies

5. Cayden Primeau, G, 20 (Montreal Canadiens — 199th overall, 2017)

Primeau had a bit of an up and down rookie season at the pro level but that’s to be expected for most prospects, even the best among them. It can be easy to forget that he’s only 20 and he has an August birthday because it feels like he has been around forever. I liked the way he started and finished the year, which included a nice run of play at the end of February and into March before the shutdown. I don’t think he has to be as aggressive in the net as he is, because it can pull him out of position or force him into tough saves, but Primeau has the size and the technical skill on his feet or in his butterfly to stay involved in the play and recover from mistakes.

image.png

 

I do not recognise the names of the other nine. in the HabsWorld forum's opinion: how good are those other guys compared to Primeau? Or compared to Price when he was still in the minors (since I know his development and career a bit better)? 

 

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1 hour ago, JoeLassister said:

Even at his salary, losing an asset like Price for nothing in return would be some kind of very very awful management.


His cap-hit is the highest in the NHL for  a goalie ... but last season he was 31st in both GAA and Sv% (minimum 25 games played) ... year before he was 12th in both (weird consistency) ... 44th and 47th the year before that ... overall, since he signed THE CONTRACT he is 24th and 28th (minimum 75 games played) ... he is an asset (especially if still perceived as even a top 5 goaltender) but so devalued in terms of "return on investment" that he really hasn't much if any value any more (IMO) ... the Habs cap structure is completely out of whack (IMO) with sooooo much of it in goal ... with the cap flat for the next two seasons and then only increasing $1 million of of the next two the added cap space would provide freedom for some aggressive moves (hopefully by a new GM ... but that is another story)

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1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

I do not recognise the names of the other nine. in the HabsWorld forum's opinion: how good are those other guys compared to Primeau? Or compared to Price when he was still in the minors (since I know his development and career a bit better)? 

 

Commandant may know...but goalies are just such an odd bunch to project.

Like a Raycroft, rookie of year in Boston then had horrible record the next year and then had 1 good year in Hogtown then faded away.

Or a Tim Thomas who did nothing till he was 30.

Hasek was pick #199 and might of been best goalie ever.

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2 hours ago, DON said:

Habs tried something like that before with a goalie, didnt turn out well for next 27yrs and counting.

There’s a big difference in moving a goalie after a bad game and moving the highest paid goalie ever after 3 lousy to mediocre years.

Roy was moved because issues with Tremblay.  The deal was horrible because the unholy trinity boxes themselves into a corner and had a GM, that had no business being in a GM/asst GM type role left to execute the trade.  As much as I love Roy, I would not had as much of an issue with the rumoured trade where the habs would have gotten Nolan, Fiset and prospects/picks that Savard was going to do a year earlier.  I wouldn’t have been happy with the trade, but at least a franchise type player would have came back in return.

 

Price is a different situation. He is the highest paid goalie in the world and hasn’t played like one for the past the past 4 years and has downright sucked or been mediocre for 3 of the past 4 years.  Granted the team in front of him sucks and if there was a ever a candidate for a change of scenery rebound it’s probably Price.  I think we should have tried to move him 2 years ago to someone like edmonton it Calgary as part of a true rebuild.  Don’t know what the post COVID market will be like. 

 

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:


His cap-hit is the highest in the NHL for  a goalie ... but last season he was 31st in both GAA and Sv% (minimum 25 games played) ... year before he was 12th in both (weird consistency) ... 44th and 47th the year before that ... overall, since he signed THE CONTRACT he is 24th and 28th (minimum 75 games played) ... he is an asset (especially if still perceived as even a top 5 goaltender) but so devalued in terms of "return on investment" that he really hasn't much if any value any more (IMO) ... the Habs cap structure is completely out of whack (IMO) with sooooo much of it in goal ... with the cap flat for the next two seasons and then only increasing $1 million of of the next two the added cap space would provide freedom for some aggressive moves (hopefully by a new GM ... but that is another story)

I think he has trade value, but only if we ate a chunk of the contract - which I’d be willing to do for the right return. I’d rather do that than lose him for nothing by getting him to agree to being exposed in the expansion draft.

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12 minutes ago, DON said:

Commandant may know...but goalies are just such an odd bunch to project.

Like a Raycroft, rookie of year in Boston then had horrible record the next year and then had 1 good year in Hogtown then faded away.

Or a Tim Thomas who did nothing till he was 30.

Hasek was pick #199 and might of been best goalie ever.

Agree. For all we know Primeau may tuen out to be the top or second best goalie on that list.  That’s why I hate using high draft picks in goalies.  Primeau is probably the lowest drafted goalie on that list - wasn’t he the last pick of his draft year?

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18 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I think he has trade value, but only if we ate a chunk of the contract - which I’d be willing to do for the right return. I’d rather do that than lose him for nothing by getting him to agree to being exposed in the expansion draft.

 

Arguably that would not be quite losing him for nothing, as we would be able to retain one of our skaters instead. So it could be, for example, we give up Price (and his big contract) and get to keep Lehkonen or Mete instead.

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4 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I do not recognise the names of the other nine. in the HabsWorld forum's opinion: how good are those other guys compared to Primeau? Or compared to Price when he was still in the minors (since I know his development and career a bit better)?

 

I agree with Sorokin and Knight being in a class of their own; I'd go as far as putting Sorokin in his own tier while Knight is one of the higher-touted goalies in recent years.  I'm skeptical of Ingram being that high - I don't think he's as bad as he was with Tampa but I also don't have him being as good as his AHL numbers were this year.  Wolf's a bit undersized for a goalie but he has been dominant with better WHL numbers than Price had.  He belongs in the tier with Primeau.  Oettinger's decent and I'd have Luukkonen in that group as well.  Admittedly, I'm not too familiar with Annunen to comment on his placement.

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2 hours ago, tomh009 said:

 

Arguably that would not be quite losing him for nothing, as we would be able to retain one of our skaters instead. So it could be, for example, we give up Price (and his big contract) and get to keep Lehkonen or Mete instead.

If we were to get a top can’t miss high ceiling D or forward prospect for price, I’d rather do that.

Say move Price, Mete and Kulak to Edmonton for Broberg, Puljujarvi, Lavoie and Koskinen and retain $4m if Price’s salary.  

 

Gives Oilers two cheap Dmen they are in need of, one for depth and the other with top 4 upside.  They also get huge upgrade in goal.  
 

We  get more solid prospects that have potential to be elite players - and I believe Puljujarvi is the only one needing to be protected in the draft.  We get  an over paid mediocre goalie at a time we have dead cap, but he does have a shorter contract term than Price - and we can also expose him in the draft.

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14 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

I agree with Sorokin and Knight being in a class of their own; I'd go as far as putting Sorokin in his own tier while Knight is one of the higher-touted goalies in recent years.  I'm skeptical of Ingram being that high - I don't think he's as bad as he was with Tampa but I also don't have him being as good as his AHL numbers were this year.  Wolf's a bit undersized for a goalie but he has been dominant with better WHL numbers than Price had.  He belongs in the tier with Primeau.  Oettinger's decent and I'd have Luukkonen in that group as well.  Admittedly, I'm not too familiar with Annunen to comment on his placement.

 

Goalies are freaking Voodoo.

 

That said, I'd probably have Primeau at third

 

Sorokin and Knight are the top 2, no doubt. 

 

I can't put Ingram at 3 based on one season when the last few have been struggles. 

Wolf has been great in the WHL, but I can't put that ahead of AHL play.  He's got another level to get to. 

I don't think any of these goalies has done as much as Price did, remember he not only dominated the WHL, dominated at the World Juniors and won MVP, but then when that was over, he went to the AHL after his final junior season ended, jumped right in with Hamilton, led them to a Calder Cup and won MVP of the playoffs.  Thats just ridiculous. 

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40 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

If we were to get a top can’t miss high ceiling D or forward prospect for price, I’d rather do that.

Say move Price, Mete and Kulak to Edmonton for Broberg, Puljujarvi, Lavoie and Koskinen and retain $4m if Price’s salary.  

 

Gives Oilers two cheap Dmen they are in need of, one for depth and the other with top 4 upside.  They also get huge upgrade in goal.  
 

We  get more solid prospects that have potential to be elite players - and I believe Puljujarvi is the only one needing to be protected in the draft.  We get  an over paid mediocre goalie at a time we have dead cap, but he does have a shorter contract term than Price - and we can also expose him in the draft.

 

Many people shook their heads at Edmonton's contract with Koskinen, but he finished the year with a .917, significantly better than Price's .909. Even if we were to retain $4M, Price would still cost the Oilers $2M more than Koskinen. Would they really be that desperate to get Price?

 

And Edmonton will not have much cap space, either ... if I wanted to make a D deal with them, I'd go for Bear (whose RFA contract may be too expensive for Edmonton) rather than long-term prospects. Or maybe even send an offer sheet to Bear?

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16 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

There’s a big difference in moving a goalie after a bad game and moving the highest paid goalie ever after 3 lousy to mediocre years.

Roy was moved because issues with Tremblay.  The deal was horrible because the unholy trinity boxes themselves into a corner and had a GM, that had no business being in a GM/asst GM type role left to execute the trade.  As much as I love Roy, I would not had as much of an issue with the rumoured trade where the habs would have gotten Nolan, Fiset and prospects/picks that Savard was going to do a year earlier.  I wouldn’t have been happy with the trade, but at least a franchise type player would have came back in return.

 

Price is a different situation. He is the highest paid goalie in the world and hasn’t played like one for the past the past 4 years and has downright sucked or been mediocre for 3 of the past 4 years.  Granted the team in front of him sucks and if there was a ever a candidate for a change of scenery rebound it’s probably Price.  I think we should have tried to move him 2 years ago to someone like edmonton it Calgary as part of a true rebuild.  Don’t know what the post COVID market will be like. 

 

 

Agreed ... but it wasn't because of a bad game ... Roy forced the issue ... realistically, in many ways, it was amazing they managed to get as much as they did

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13 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

If we were to get a top can’t miss high ceiling D or forward prospect for price, I’d rather do that.

Say move Price, Mete and Kulak to Edmonton for Broberg, Puljujarvi, Lavoie and Koskinen and retain $4m if Price’s salary.  

 

Gives Oilers two cheap Dmen they are in need of, one for depth and the other with top 4 upside.  They also get huge upgrade in goal.  
 

We  get more solid prospects that have potential to be elite players - and I believe Puljujarvi is the only one needing to be protected in the draft.  We get  an over paid mediocre goalie at a time we have dead cap, but he does have a shorter contract term than Price - and we can also expose him in the draft.

Good idea ... but realistically Mete and Kulak are 3rd pairing D on a good team ... so not much value in a trade (IMO)

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16 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I think he has trade value, but only if we ate a chunk of the contract - which I’d be willing to do for the right return. I’d rather do that than lose him for nothing by getting him to agree to being exposed in the expansion draft.

 

It would take retaining half and even then I don't know that the return would be there to justify it ... with the team 2-3 years away from the youngsters becoming truly competitive that cap space could be better used (IMO)

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

Agreed ... but it wasn't because of a bad game ... Roy forced the issue ... realistically, in many ways, it was amazing they managed to get as much as they did

Roy initially said he would never play again, but than did apologize afterwards for the outburst and wanted to return, but was told he will be moved.  this wasn’t like the Gilmour situation in Calgary where he felt so insulted at the contract offers and how negotiatons went with Risebrough, that he went home and refused to report. Roy was willing to come back.


Even if they didn’t want to keep him, the smart thing would have been to have brought him back, play him, let the dust settle and than see if their was interest.  The way it was done was a case study of how not to make a trade.

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I thought Roy said he was very surprised they traded him and I assume thought it would just blow over after all cooled down?

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