GDT July 28, Maple Leafs vs Habs, 8 PM

[xXx..CK..xXx]

I’m not going to count Drouin out. I’ve seen him do well against the Pens in a series before. 

[Habsfan89]

I wonder if Price misses playing in front of the D he had on team Canada instead of this garbage 🤔

[GHT120]

3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

... no coach is getting fired because of his chouce of 12th FW ...

 

Agreed ... but making the use of Weise even less understandable (IMO) is this RDS report, citing the Swiss daily Le Matin, that he has already agreed to a deal for 20/21 with Lausanne of the Swiss League First Division ... Mark Barberio of the Avalanche too

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

49 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

 

Agreed ... but making the use of Weise even less understandable (IMO) is this RDS report, citing the Swiss daily Le Matin, that he has already agreed to a deal for 20/21 with Lausanne of the Swiss League First Division ... Mark Barberio of the Avalanche too

 

Ha ha, I forgot about The Barbarian!

 

I think Brian is right. Weise is a Good Old Boy and a veteran, and Julien (like a lot of coaches) just has a higher comfort level with a veteran in that role. Dumb, but very typical of the overwhelming, hyper-risk-averse conservatism which prevails in NHL coaching culture. 

 

In fairness to the coach, he *is* giving a lot of opportunity to KK in particular, as well as Suzuki. That is probably all the "taking chances on young players" his system can handle, LOL.

 

2 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I’m not going to count Drouin out. I’ve seen him do well against the Pens in a series before. 

 

I certainly wouldn't rule out Drouin ever going on a hot streak at some point. It's more that you cannot pencil him in as a guy to count on from shift to shift, game to game, series of games to series of games, or even season to season. Guys like him (erratic, soft skill guys who always tantalize with their talent and never reliably deliver) are the opposite of, say, Brendan Gallagher. That's why you can't count on them; when they play up to their potential, it should be taken as a bonus, not a given. One of the Habs' problems is that he is currently in a very important role, structurally, on the team: the most talented forward on a team with a talent shortage. He should be a supplementary rather than a core piece, leaving other players carrying the load and letting his contributions be a "bonus."

[hab29RETIRED]

3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

The modest good news has nothing to do with the Habs: the arena set-up looked pretty cool, considering the place was empty, and it's fun to hear the players yelling. A pity the broadcasters insist on piping in artificial fan noise - it just sounds silly. What they really should be doing is micing the coaches, taking fans closer to the action, creating a uniquely intimate viewing experience. 

 

The intermission footage was so bizarre as to be almost worth watching for once.

 

And the bubble is working - no Covid for a while now. This crazy format just might work out.

 

johnnyhasbeen, I thought one team did look pretty good out there. It's just that it was the wrong one. The Leafs are a neurotic bunch, but they are exciting and have about 3X the talent of the team they were playing last night.

 

 

I won't cry if CJ is canned, but do you really believe another coach could get hugely better results out of this bunch? A dearth of talent is tbe fundamental problem. And no coach is getting fired because of his chouce of 12th FW. 

 

What does bother me is that he is setting up Domi, who actually does have some talent, to fail, by placing him between cement-hands Weise and butterfingers Weal.

 

As for Drouin, I continue to maintain: any team counting on him in a key role will be disappointed. I've seen this movie too many times - great tools, no tool box.

It’s not about the use of a 12th forward. It’s the fact that Weise actually got more ice time than Lekhonan or Byron - when he should not have even been in the lineup.

 

Similarly on D how what is Oellett Doing in the lineup, let alone getting that much ice time?

 

these play in should be about getting players ready for next year and trying to evaluate your young players in advance if next year, not about trying not to lose because if the kids, over Marginal/washed up veterans they will lose with anyways.  Line combos also don’t make sense if you want a guy like KK or Domi to succeed, or end the year in a positive note.

 

also agree with the fact that Julien isn’t going anywhere until MB gets the boot.  But if the kids are the future - which is what we’re being sold - than follow through on that strategy.

[GHT120]

5 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

... I think Brian is right. Weise is a Good Old Boy and a veteran, and Julien (like a lot of coaches) just has a higher comfort level with a veteran in that role. Dumb, but very typical of the overwhelming, hyper-risk-averse conservatism which prevails in NHL coaching culture ...

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

3 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

It’s not about the use of a 12th forward. It’s the fact that Weise actually got more ice time than Lekhonan or Byron - when he should not have even been in the lineup.

 

 

The thing is, on the face of it the Domi line did well. They had a lot of chances, and that's probably why Weise got the ice-time he did.

 

It's a catch-22, though, because as long as Domi is surrounded by Weal and Weise, the line will rarely capitalize on its chances. This is a perennial problem with lines that surround a skilled pivot with plumbers - remember when a rookie Koivu had Turner Stevenson as his wingman? Boy, they had a ton of chances. A way fewer results than those chances would have suggested.

 

But remember, moving Domi up the lineup would mean moving KK or Suzuki down it. So maybe we shouldn't be too hard on CJ for putting Domi on Line 4. That still fails to excuse playing Weise, though.

 

4 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

 

[JoeLassister]

9 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The thing is, on the face of it the Domi line did well. They had a lot of chances, and that's probably why Weise got the ice-time he did.

 

It's a catch-22, though, because as long as Domi is surrounded by Weal and Weise, the line will rarely capitalize on its chances. This is a perennial problem with lines that surround a skilled pivot with plumbers - remember when a rookie Koivu had Turner Stevenson as his wingman? Boy, they had a ton of chances. A way fewer results than those chances would have suggested.

 

But remember, moving Domi up the lineup would mean moving KK or Suzuki down it. So maybe we shouldn't be too hard on CJ for putting Domi on Line 4. That still fails to excuse playing Weise, though.

 

 

 

I would not move Domi up the lineup that much to be honest.

I Believe that  a line of  Hudon - Domi - Weal  could have the higher hand on  Aston-Reese and Tanev, for example.  Then,  Domi on 2nd PP  would give him his TOI easily. 

[alfredoh2009]

Hudon screwed up his chances by missing the hotel shuttle for practice Today

 

Maybe Evans draws in ?!

 

[GHT120]

6 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Hudon screwed up his chances by missing the hotel shuttle for practice Today

 

Maybe Evans draws in ?!

 

 

D'on't think Hudon really had a realistic chance in any event ... Poehling is (IMO) behind Evans on the depth chart but longer term has the higher ceiling ... so there is an argument to be made that in terms of development playing him might make sense ... but Evans is the logical choice as (a) Julien is trying to win, and (b) Jake would seem able to make the greater impact (relatively little as it may be) in the NOW.

[hab29RETIRED]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The thing is, on the face of it the Domi line did well. They had a lot of chances, and that's probably why Weise got the ice-time he did.

 

It's a catch-22, though, because as long as Domi is surrounded by Weal and Weise, the line will rarely capitalize on its chances. This is a perennial problem with lines that surround a skilled pivot with plumbers - remember when a rookie Koivu had Turner Stevenson as his wingman? Boy, they had a ton of chances. A way fewer results than those chances would have suggested.

 

But remember, moving Domi up the lineup would mean moving KK or Suzuki down it. So maybe we shouldn't be too hard on CJ for putting Domi on Line 4. That still fails to excuse playing Weise, though.

 

 

Question is, was Weise an anchor?  I hated seeing koivu with Stevenson.  But he did turn Savage and Higgins into solid 20 goal scorers.  I can’t see them scoring that many goals playing with our other centres. But they had some finish.  Put Weise with Koivu and he would have wanted to take a flight back to Turko.
 

It doesn’t matter if the line gets a lot of chances if no one can finish. I doubt if the current version of Weise could score playing with the 1987 Wayne Gretzky.  Hell The best wingman in the world isn’t going to help Pee Wee Herman score with Salma Hayek.

[hab29RETIRED]

22 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

 

D'on't think Hudon really had a realistic chance in any event ... Poehling is (IMO) behind Evans on the depth chart but longer term has the higher ceiling ... so there is an argument to be made that in terms of development playing him might make sense ... but Evans is the logical choice as (a) Julien is trying to win, and (b) Jake would seem able to make the greater impact (relatively little as it may be) in the NOW.

I’ve said it before, these playoffs should be about seing if some of out young guys can finish the season on a positive note. I’d much rather have Evans and Poehling Not play over Weise and Belzile.

 

i also want to see how KK plays with someone who has more skill. Maybe even have Drouin play with KK and Domi on the wing with Suzuki.  Put out an all kid line for the 4th line, circa the Gelina-graves-Murphy line the oilers had in the early 90’s.

[GHT120]

41 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I’ve said it before, these playoffs should be about seing if some of out young guys can finish the season on a positive note. I’d much rather have Evans and Poehling Not play over Weise and Belzile.

 

i also want to see how KK plays with someone who has more skill. Maybe even have Drouin play with KK and Domi on the wing with Suzuki.  Put out an all kid line for the 4th line, circa the Gelina-graves-Murphy line the oilers had in the early 90’s.

 

Don't know if I agree with your specifics but definitely agree that this is an ideal opportunity to play youngsters 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

39 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I’ve said it before, these playoffs should be about seing if some of out young guys can finish the season on a positive note. I’d much rather have Evans and Poehling Not play over Weise and Belzile.

 

i also want to see how KK plays with someone who has more skill. Maybe even have Drouin play with KK and Domi on the wing with Suzuki.  Put out an all kid line for the 4th line, circa the Gelina-graves-Murphy line the oilers had in the early 90’s.

 

I'd be happy with an all-kid line (even though it'd probably get eaten alive). But I just don't agree with treating the play-in as "developmental." It definitely has developmental benefits, but every coach is going to coach to win games, not "develop" players. It also sends a terrible signal to the rest of the team: here you have been gifted a shot at the playoffs, and you decide NOT to ice what you believe to be your most competitive lineup?

 

That being said, I agree that Weise should not be in there. But that's because he's not the organization's 12th best FW, rather than because he's an old guy.

[Link67]

I'm not going to lie, I am getting a kick out of all the over reactions and outrage from people over this first in 4 months game, not that I am surprised with our fan base though. Like there is anything to take away from this kind of game, good or bad, to justify getting so worked up and already calling for firings and trades, lol. We all knew it was going to be ugly,with some spurts of good, some doses of horrible, and no more telling than the first game of a pre-season where everyone went to bed at 3am the night before. 

 

This whole 1st round playoff is going to look like a pre-season, it is likely to come down to who is pooping their pants less, on that particular night, but make no mistake, poop will happen on both sides.

[GHT120]

5 minutes ago, Link67 said:

I'm not going to lie, I am getting a kick out of all the over reactions and outrage from people over this first in 4 months game, not that I am surprised with our fan base though. Like there is anything to take away from this kind of game, good or bad, to justify getting so worked up and already calling for firings and trades, lol ...

 

Think it is all based on unresolved issues from the past seasons ... not created from last nights' game ... but the game provided a focus and more examples of why people feel the roster is not only inadequate but not well managed either.

 

 

[xXx..CK..xXx]

The purpose of the play-in will be to try to win. Not to focus on next year. There is a syndrome in hockey where it seems the future and past are always more important to fans than the present. We need to ice our best line-up. Does that include Weise? Probably not. But it’s for a whole other reason than “he’s not a youngster”. 

[GHT120]

28 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

The purpose of the play-in will be to try to win. Not to focus on next year. There is a syndrome in hockey where it seems the future and past are always more important to fans than the present. We need to ice our best line-up. Does that include Weise? Probably not. But it’s for a whole other reason than “he’s not a youngster”. 

 

IMO for the present to truly be important (i.e., winning is all that matters) the team has to have been built well enough to have at least a real shot at a deep playoff run ... not the recent "make the playoffs, cross your fingers, knock on wood, toss salt over your shoulder, spin around three times on one leg and hope" standard of mediocrity ... this team is (again, IMO) still far from that so what is important is development ... throwing Poehling onto the top line would be a slap in the face to veterans as that certainly would not be giving the team the best chance of winning ... but playing Poehling/Evans rather than Weise is neither throwing in the towel nor something that should discourage the veterans; subbing the other for Weal is a trickier decision ... neither would be playing some combination of Fleury/Juulsen/Mete instead of Ouellette or Folin on the 3rd pairing be a "bad signal". 

 

To be clear ... I am not saying TRY TO LOSE ... but rather there is no use hoping and praying that useless veterans suddenly become something they aren't, but rather help youngsters become what you hope they can be.

[DON]

3 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

It’s not about the use of a 12th forward. It’s the fact that Weise actually got more ice time than Lekhonan or Byron - when he should not have even been in the lineup.

 

Similarly on D how what is Oellett Doing in the lineup, let alone getting that much ice time?

 

these play in should be about getting players ready for next year and trying to evaluate your young players in advance if next year, not about trying not to lose because if the kids, over Marginal/washed up veterans they will lose with anyways.  Line combos also don’t make sense if you want a guy like KK or Domi to succeed, or end the year in a positive note.

 

also agree with the fact that Julien isn’t going anywhere until MB gets the boot.  But if the kids are the future - which is what we’re being sold - than follow through on that strategy.

Agree, he is at least coaching to start the 20-21 season..but still doesn't mean I cant hope for some new blood and not another old retread...maybe he will retire in couple weeks.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

34 minutes ago, DON said:

Agree, he is at least coaching to start the 20-21 season..but still doesn't mean I cant hope for some new blood and not another old retread...maybe he will retire in couple weeks.

 

I wonder what % of coaches retire of their own volition, as opposed to ending up unemployed? Hitchcock did...Bowman...not too sure about others

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

IMO for the present to truly be important (i.e., winning is all that matters) the team has to have been built well enough to have at least a real shot at a deep playoff run ... not the recent "make the playoffs, cross your fingers, knock on wood, toss salt over your shoulder, spin around three times on one leg and hope" standard of mediocrity ... this team is (again, IMO) still far from that so what is important is development ... throwing Poehling onto the top line would be a slap in the face to veterans as that certainly would not be giving the team the best chance of winning ... but playing Poehling/Evans rather than Weise is neither throwing in the towel nor something that should discourage the veterans; subbing the other for Weal is a trickier decision ... neither would be playing some combination of Fleury/Juulsen/Mete instead of Ouellette or Folin on the 3rd pairing be a "bad signal". 

 

To be clear ... I am not saying TRY TO LOSE ... but rather there is no use hoping and praying that useless veterans suddenly become something they aren't, but rather help youngsters become what you hope they can be.

 

I think everyone EXCEPT Julien seems to agree that playing Weise over a younger player is dumb. What we're really arguing about is the appropriate rationale for this judgement. Some say that it's dumb because we should be using these playoffs to give experience to kids. Others (like me) say the kids are probably better options than Weise in pure hockey terms. Either way, using Weise is dumb.

[GHT120]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I wonder what % of coaches retire of their own volition, as opposed to ending up unemployed? Hitchcock did...Bowman...not too sure about others

 

VERY few ... in any sport ... and wasn't Hitchcock last with Edmonton ... brought in 20-something games into the season and let go after a just under .500 record and missing the playoffs.

[Commandant]

I dont care how old weise is.

 

I care that Evans and Hudon are both better players right now.

[hab29RETIRED]

4 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I'd be happy with an all-kid line (even though it'd probably get eaten alive). But I just don't agree with treating the play-in as "developmental." It definitely has developmental benefits, but every coach is going to coach to win games, not "develop" players. It also sends a terrible signal to the rest of the team: here you have been gifted a shot at the playoffs, and you decide NOT to ice what you believe to be your most competitive lineup?

 

That being said, I agree that Weise should not be in there. But that's because he's not the organization's 12th best FW, rather than because he's an old guy.

I don’t think our chances of winning are any worse playing the kids - who may surprise - than a guy like Weise who no longer belongs in the NHL, or the bums on D.

in 84’ Chelios playoffs were much better than his regular season.  Ditto with Lemieux in 86’.

[hab29RETIRED]

3 hours ago, Link67 said:

I'm not going to lie, I am getting a kick out of all the over reactions and outrage from people over this first in 4 months game, not that I am surprised with our fan base though. Like there is anything to take away from this kind of game, good or bad, to justify getting so worked up and already calling for firings and trades, lol. We all knew it was going to be ugly,with some spurts of good, some doses of horrible, and no more telling than the first game of a pre-season where everyone went to bed at 3am the night before. 

 

This whole 1st round playoff is going to look like a pre-season, it is likely to come down to who is pooping their pants less, on that particular night, but make no mistake, poop will happen on both sides.

Actually, I was calling for the firings back in December.