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Aug. 7 - Game Four - Habs v.s. PITS -4 PM


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2 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Yes and the point is that had the Habs actually attempted to tank and been successful at doing so during that year, they would have done all that tanking work for Nail Yakupov. It’ll never make sense to me.

Or they could of traded the 1st overall pick to fill a roster need, since at the time we were considered a cup contending team. We could of gotten a top scoring winger or a top line center of which we needed at the time.

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2 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

Team Tank as you call it doesn't want to tank every season, it wants strategic planning to tank in seasons with 2-3 elite players available ... like 2016 (Matthews, Laine, Dubois), 2015 (McDavid, Eichel, Marner), 2010 (Hall, Seguin), 2009 (Tavares, Hedman) ... no reason to suck if the reward is Yakupov/Murray/Galchenyuk ... this season is reputed to be another "good" draft ... as is the 2021 draft.

 

Sure, there is no guarantee that you get the top players, but it isn't like the last 26 seasons been a rousing success with the "hope to make the playoffs and see" approach ... with an occasional glimpse at a chance for the Cup Finals (twice) ... I was good with that for a long time but finally lost faith ... even with a decent collection of prospects for the first time in many, many years I don't see the Habs becoming any more than "a playoff favourite and see" team ... I can advocate for a rebuild while cheering for the players/team if management is happy with the hamster wheel they are on.

That’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever read on here. 
 

So simply because you were patient for awhile and then changed your mind, that means this method is the correct method? 
 

A team needs to strive to get better every year. You don’t go “okay, this year the top 5 in the draft will be amazing so we will rest Price 10 more games than usual (as an example) for that reason. 
 

What you are suggesting by “strategic tanking” guarantees lost seasons while promising no success. 

Sure if the team is out of the playoffs, there’s nothing wrong with playing the kids without fear of losing points in the standings. Wishing for our team to lose while they still have a chance at the playoffs? That’s a whole other level.
 

 

I would focus more on having better off season acquisitions. It the Habs have a good season, there is always the trade deadline to improve the team and put them over the top in any given year. 

Now my words will be twisted and I’ll be told that all I am doing is “hoping for the best.”

 

No, I would demand that we do a better job at continuing to improve our team each and every off season. As we continue to improve, become buyers at the deadline. This whole time our drafted prospects are also improving.

 

This is versus losing on purpose for one single draft that “has a good reputation”. The thing is, one draft will never be enough with that strategy and as a result that strategy will never be correct. 

 

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I believe he means when the picks are projected to be elite and your team is in the basement. Strategically selling  for more assets/ picks while injecting youth into your line up essentially weakening the team and making you lose more without actually throwing games. 

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41 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

I believe he means when the picks are projected to be elite and your team is in the basement. Strategically selling  for more assets/ picks while injecting youth into your line up essentially weakening the team and making you lose more without actually throwing games. 

Actually, that’s what I was suggesting.

 

He and others were saying that we should do that this year as recently as 2 days ago. That was when we still had a chance at the playoffs. And then we made them.
 

It’s also in the post I quoted: “this year is reputed to be a good draft”. That means we should have done it this year. It also says “as is the next draft” which makes it sound as though we’re supposed to “strategic tank” next year as well, even though the season hasn’t started yet.

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4 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

Team Tank as you call it doesn't want to tank every season, it wants strategic planning to tank in seasons with 2-3 elite players available ... like 2016 (Matthews, Laine, Dubois), 2015 (McDavid, Eichel, Marner), 2010 (Hall, Seguin), 2009 (Tavares, Hedman) ... no reason to suck if the reward is Yakupov/Murray/Galchenyuk ... this season is reputed to be another "good" draft ... as is the 2021 draft.

 

Sure, there is no guarantee that you get the top players, but it isn't like the last 26 seasons been a rousing success with the "hope to make the playoffs and see" approach ... with an occasional glimpse at a chance for the Cup Finals (twice) ... I was good with that for a long time but finally lost faith ... even with a decent collection of prospects for the first time in many, many years I don't see the Habs becoming any more than "a playoff favourite and see" team ... I can advocate for a rebuild while cheering for the players/team if management is happy with the hamster wheel they are on.

 

How.many teams have fallen to the bottom of the league... got 1 top pick and then bounced back?

 

The issue is that players dont tank.  They always want to try to win.  You dont make the NHL without a healthy competitive streak and even if the game is playing out the string players go for contracts.

 

So the only way to tank is for management to actively remove.the talent from the team.  

 

This talent needs to be replaced and so the idea that you shed talent for a percentage chance at a mcdavid or whoever but then you go for it when its hischier or whoever isnt really realistic.

 

If you are tanking, its a multi year strategy.  Not a one off.

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45 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

How.many teams have fallen to the bottom of the league... got 1 top pick and then bounced back?

 

The issue is that players dont tank.  They always want to try to win.  You dont make the NHL without a healthy competitive streak and even if the game is playing out the string players go for contracts.

 

So the only way to tank is for management to actively remove.the talent from the team.  

 

This talent needs to be replaced and so the idea that you shed talent for a percentage chance at a mcdavid or whoever but then you go for it when its hischier or whoever isnt really realistic.

 

If you are tanking, its a multi year strategy.  Not a one off.

Players don't tank but gm's do. If a team is out of the playoff picture by the trade deadline they become sellers to give themselves a better chance at a lottery pick. If a team is rebuilding and that year their is a elite level prospect going number one, they keep their team way below the salary cap and play mostly young guys or vets no one else wants. This way he his giving himself the best chance to get that number one overall pick and draft that elite player. Worked out for Toronto with Matthew, workout for edmonton with Mcdavid. 

 

If you're a contender and favorite to make the playoffs yeah you're not going to tank for these types of prospects.

 

But yeah if you're out of the playoffs by the trade deadline you should sell off your ufa's and try and give yourself a better chance at the top leave prospect.

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7 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Players don't tank but gm's do. If a team is out of the playoff picture by the trade deadline they become sellers to give themselves a better chance at a lottery pick. If a team is rebuilding and that year their is a elite level prospect going number one, they keep their team way below the salary cap and play mostly young guys or vets no one else wants. This way he his giving himself the best chance to get that number one overall pick and draft that elite player. Worked out for Toronto with Matthew, workout for edmonton with Mcdavid. 

 

If you're a contender and favorite to make the playoffs yeah you're not going to tank for these types of prospects.

 

But yeah if you're out of the playoffs by the trade deadline you should sell off your ufa's and try and give yourself a better chance at the top leave prospect.

Look at the rangers.  They didn’t just sell UFA’s but sold off guys with term which I thought was brilliant.  they knew they were spinning their wheels as a bubble team and decided to blow it up. The only big name old player they didn’t move was Lundquist -  even that was more out of respect by giving him the choice to stay.  I can’t see Lundquist being back with them next year.  There are no guarantees, because it does depend on how some of their kids develop, but I think they are in a better place than they were with the perpetual bubble team.
 

But than they went back to being the Rangers and while they made a great trade to get Trouba, they really overpaid for what he is.  No way I’d want a $8m cap hit for him.  They did well on the Panarin contract compared to what a Panarin could have gotten, but after getting out of bad contracts, they overpaid Trouba.  Now they get a shot at the number 1 overall and if they get it, I can see them

moving down, because they need a top centre.

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25 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Players don't tank but gm's do. If a team is out of the playoff picture by the trade deadline they become sellers to give themselves a better chance at a lottery pick. If a team is rebuilding and that year their is a elite level prospect going number one, they keep their team way below the salary cap and play mostly young guys or vets no one else wants. This way he his giving himself the best chance to get that number one overall pick and draft that elite player. Worked out for Toronto with Matthew, workout for edmonton with Mcdavid. 

 

If you're a contender and favorite to make the playoffs yeah you're not going to tank for these types of prospects.

 

But yeah if you're out of the playoffs by the trade deadline you should sell off your ufa's and try and give yourself a better chance at the top leave prospect.

If only we kept Kovalchuk and Scandella. They'd look good on the 4th line and 3rd pair.

 

Basically we tanked to a lesser extent while shedding only unsigned assets. Hudon had NO value.

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7 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Yes and the point is that had the Habs actually attempted to tank and been successful at doing so during that year, they would have done all that tanking work for Nail Yakupov. It’ll never make sense to me.

Which is why proper tanking is to be strategic strategic and target a draft with a couple of elite players at the top ... NOBODY with any proper understanding of the concept of tanking has ever suggested just tanking every year just because they want to tank ... despite what opponents claim

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25 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

Which is why proper tanking is to be strategic strategic and target a draft with a couple of elite players at the top ... NOBODY with any proper understanding of the concept of tanking has ever suggested just tanking every year just because they want to tank ... despite what opponents claim

Ok then: explain it. What is this proper understanding you have 

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Just now, alfredoh2009 said:

Ok then: explain it. What is this proper understanding you have 

Think I have ... don't just randomly tank just to try to get the first overall pick, or do it every year until you get that pick (which could be Yakupov-ish) but rather look ahead for the next few drafts and plan the tank with that draft as the target

 

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1 minute ago, GHT120 said:

Think I have ... don't just randomly tank just to try to get the first overall pick, or do it every year until you get that pick (which could be Yakupov-ish) but rather look ahead for the next few drafts and plan the tank with that draft as the target

 

Measured tanking, seems like game fixing or throwing games on purpose against specific teams to affect drafting positioning 

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11 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Ok then: explain it. What is this proper understanding you have 

If your team sucks and McDavid, eichal are available you suck.  If Mathews is available you make your sucky team even worse by trading away assets and keeping good prospects down.  If Mario Lemieux is available and even though you shouldn’t be as bad as the devils, you make sure you are.  It’s harder now with the lottery than what is used to be, but still doable.  
and for those that point to Detroit as tanking not working,  they were just bad, because of years of trading away picks and prospects and signing over the hill players to dumb deals.  That is just bad past management situation that Yzerman walked into, not a conscious tank.

 

i wouldn’t call the oilers under Lowe tank jobs either - that was poor management as well.

 

yiunlooknat the caps and pens in early 2000’s selling off players, or chicago, those are tank jobs.  Buffalo has been a tank job, with lousy GM’s and owners.  It’s wh I doubt someone who makes a Sergechev for Drouin trade, that is as bad as some of Buffalo’s deal can tank properly.  The Shanaplan was a perfectly executed tank job. But then he fxcked up by giving the keys to the car to Dubas.

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4 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

That’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever read on here. 
Thank you for again resorting to insults

 

So simply because you were patient for awhile and then changed your mind, that means this method is the correct method? 
Talk about twisting words ... I never said that ... NEITHER of us can KNOW for certain which approach is best ... we each have our own opinion ... I just favour doing something other than what hasn't worked for 26 seasons  
 

A team needs to strive to get better every year. You don’t go “okay, this year the top 5 in the draft will be amazing so we will rest Price 10 more games than usual (as an example) for that reason.
I agree teams need to strive to get better, we simply don't agree on how best to do that
Also, IMO tanking involves moving assets for picks prospects and young players and likley planning for it more than one season in advance.

 

What you are suggesting by “strategic tanking” guarantees lost seasons while promising no success. 

Neither does year-by-year promise success ... witness the last 26 seasons

Sure if the team is out of the playoffs, there’s nothing wrong with playing the kids without fear of losing points in the standings. Wishing for our team to lose while they still have a chance at the playoffs? That’s a whole other level.
In my view the true value of the team, and where it stands in the long-term, was reflected by their regular season performance, not the randomness of the Covid-induced play-in/play-off structure

 

I would focus more on having better off season acquisitions. It the Habs have a good season, there is always the trade deadline to improve the team and put them over the top in any given year. 
UFAs have proven difficult to acquire without overpaying, and then it hasn't been for difference makers the team needs; overpaying makes cap management very difficult ... MB deserves some credit for having the gumption to go the RFA route with Aho, but it will always be difficult to get players that the team really needs as few teams are ever likely to not match the offer for that kind of player; unless the offer is ridiculously high, which leads back to the cap management issue ... trades are the logical approach but you can't get without giving ... generally it means giving up high picks and top prospects ... hard to take major steps forward unless you have exceptional depth at a position ... As for the trade deadline, not a big fan of deadline acquisitions ... Petry worked out because he re-signed AND continued to develop his game ... but there is never a guarantee that either will happen to help with future years, and few trade deadline acquisitions drive a team to a Cup or even a Cup Final.

Now my words will be twisted and I’ll be told that all I am doing is “hoping for the best.”
No .. we just have different visions for how to make the team a true Cup contender

 

No, I would demand that we do a better job at continuing to improve our team each and every off season. As we continue to improve, become buyers at the deadline. This whole time our drafted prospects are also improving.

<addressed above>

 

This is versus losing on purpose for one single draft that “has a good reputation”. The thing is, one draft will never be enough with that strategy and as a result that strategy will never be correct. 

But the rebuild approach I support involved moving veterans for picks in more than one draft and also seeks prospects and young players (essentially the flip side of the coin to making trades to improve the team now) to develop together ... again, no guarantees with either approach

 

 

Now ... since neither of us will ever convince the other to change our view, how about a new topic ... where do you stand on Bergevin ... see what happens until his contract is up, extend him or look for a replacement?

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34 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Measured tanking, seems like game fixing or throwing games on purpose against specific teams to affect drafting positioning 

Hardly, it is what TO did ... move out veterans with value ... take back bad contracts for premium payoffs of picks/prospects and target to bottom out for a strong draft

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4 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Actually, that’s what I was suggesting.

 

He and others were saying that we should do that this year as recently as 2 days ago. That was when we still had a chance at the playoffs. And then we made them.
 

It’s also in the post I quoted: “this year is reputed to be a good draft”. That means we should have done it this year. It also says “as is the next draft” which makes it sound as though we’re supposed to “strategic tank” next year as well, even though the season hasn’t started yet.

 

This year was a unique opportunity to get a #1 overall pick without cleaning out veterans to tank ... NEVER suggested the coach/team should "tank" against Pittsburgh, just expressed my preference that they not win because of the relatively unique opportunity that presented this season ... next season is not a practical tank target, it takes a couples of years IMO, especially with the extremely short off-season this year ... but if the team again has virtually no chance of making the playoffs as the deadline approaches I would again hope for the team to slide further ... but if they are in the hunt next January/February I would not ever hope for losses.

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2 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

Players don't tank but gm's do. If a team is out of the playoff picture by the trade deadline they become sellers to give themselves a better chance at a lottery pick. If a team is rebuilding and that year their is a elite level prospect going number one, they keep their team way below the salary cap and play mostly young guys or vets no one else wants. This way he his giving himself the best chance to get that number one overall pick and draft that elite player. Worked out for Toronto with Matthew, workout for edmonton with Mcdavid. 

 

If you're a contender and favorite to make the playoffs yeah you're not going to tank for these types of prospects.

 

But yeah if you're out of the playoffs by the trade deadline you should sell off your ufa's and try and give yourself a better chance at the top leave prospect.

 

It didn't work for Toronto with just Matthews.  It wasn't one player... they had high draft picks in Kadri, Nylander, Marner, and Matthews.  They didn't bottom out for 1 year and then fix everything.  From 2005-2016, the Leafs made the playoffs once.

 

McDavid was the Oilers 4th first overall pick. They also had a third overall in Draisaitl and a Top 10 in Nurse.  This isn't one year of bottoming out. 

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

Which is why proper tanking is to be strategic strategic and target a draft with a couple of elite players at the top ... NOBODY with any proper understanding of the concept of tanking has ever suggested just tanking every year just because they want to tank ... despite what opponents claim

 

How do you sell off most of your best talent in one specific year, and rebuild that depth the following season.  It usually doesn't work as a one-year thing. 

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13 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

How do you sell off most of your best talent in one specific year, and rebuild that depth the following season.  It usually doesn't work as a one-year thing. 

Totally agree ... it is a 2/3 year process to target a draft and a multi-year process to build with the youth drafted and prospects acquired ... then selected veterans can be targeted in trades when the cupboards are full youth ... would never suggest a rebuild is a one year process ... but this season was a unique opportunity as the Habs had a shot at the #1 overall without having to intentionally tank or truly rebuild ... the team just had a horrible season

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

How do you sell off most of your best talent in one specific year, and rebuild that depth the following season.  It usually doesn't work as a one-year thing. 

Edmonton and Toronto were rebuilding on a 5 year plan. Which means you suck for 5 years and become a top 5 lottery pick team those 5 years which they did.

 

Thats what you do on a 5 year rebuild. 

 

Bubble team's are different. We start the season In hopes of making the playoffs, but by the deadline we're usually out of it for some reason or another. So if by chance in a year were theirs a top level can't miss elite talent prospect, and you're in the bottom 10 by the deadline sell off your ufa's for picks and prospects and push for that lottery pick and a better chance at a 1st overall pick.

 

If you miss out on that 1st overall pick but still pick in the top five, you can always look at trading that pick for a star player to fill a hole in your line up rather than draft a player.

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24 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Torontos five year plan took 12 years.   Edmonton's took similar

That's because both teams didn't draft for need but took best available player. They thought they could just plug in anyone to fill holes, which didn't work.

 

If your need is a top D or top goaltender and you can pick either one to fill your team's needs, but best available player is center which you're deep at what are you going to do?

 

Me I am taking which ever player is better for my team need. So if a D prospect is better than the goaltender i am taking the D. If the goaltender is better i am taking the goaltender. Or you see have far you can take down and get some extra pics or a player to fill a hole whos better then what you can draft.

 

Edmonton and Toronto didn't do that which is why they're weak on D.

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