Aug. 7 - Game Four - Habs v.s. PITS -4 PM

[hab29RETIRED]

46 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Edmonton and Toronto were rebuilding on a 5 year plan. Which means you suck for 5 years and become a top 5 lottery pick team those 5 years which they did.

 

Thats what you do on a 5 year rebuild. 

 

Bubble team's are different. We start the season In hopes of making the playoffs, but by the deadline we're usually out of it for some reason or another. So if by chance in a year were theirs a top level can't miss elite talent prospect, and you're in the bottom 10 by the deadline sell off your ufa's for picks and prospects and push for that lottery pick and a better chance at a 1st overall pick.

 

If you miss out on that 1st overall pick but still pick in the top five, you can always look at trading that pick for a star player to fill a hole in your line up rather than draft a player.

Toronto was not rebuilding through the draft until the Shanaplan.  Under Burke we was giving away first rounders.
 

oilers were also not tanking.  They were just incompetent under Lowe/Mactavish. 
Just because you suck doesn’t mean you are tanking. If you lose players through bad trades or your UFA’s don’t want to resign with you that is not tanking.

 

tanking is when a team trades away their best players to rebuild and stockpiles picks.  It doesn’t always work. At the end of the day you need a smart GM, not like an idiot in Buffalo who makes stupid UFA signings or gives away a guy like O’Reilly.

 

ditto in Edmonton under Lowe/Mactavish they actually weren’t trying to lose, they just made dumb moves and signings. Ditto under Chiarelli, who through stupid money at UFA’s and traded gave away Hall.

[alfredoh2009]

2 hours ago, GHT120 said:

Hardly, it is what TO did ... move out veterans with value ... take back bad contracts for premium payoffs of picks/prospects and target to bottom out for a strong draft

1. If you are tanking, you would want to lose against other teams that are taking so that they do not get a higher pick than you.

2. Taking bad contracts takes away contract spots for the handful of prospects and core players you want to build around

3. Taking sucks the life away from you team and makes free agents stay away from your loosing culture

 

1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

Totally agree ... it is a 2/3 year process to target a draft and a multi-year process to build with the youth drafted and prospects acquired ... then selected veterans can be targeted in trades when the cupboards are full youth ... would never suggest a rebuild is a one year process ... but this season was a unique opportunity as the Habs had a shot at the #1 overall without having to intentionally tank or truly rebuild ... the team just had a horrible season

Consecutive draft years do not yield quality draft picks. You need to also pick which years to tank and which years when not to tank because some years it is just not worth it

 

25 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

That's because both teams didn't draft for need but took best available player. They thought they could just plug in anyone to fill holes, which didn't work.

 

If your need is a top D or top goaltender and you can pick either one to fill your team's needs, but best available player is center which you're deep at what are you going to do?

This is an opinion and not a hard fact, specially for goaltenders. 17 year old goaltenders are so far from the NHL that drafting them high and hoping to build on that expectation is not a sound plan. And Defenders out of the top 10 are hit and miss

 

I wanted the Habs to try to get Lafreniere, even suggested a few months ago to package draft picks and prospects just to be reminded that those trades are just not made: no team has traded a first overall pick (I have not checked, but I think it is true)

If is not ideal for the Habs future in 4-5 years to have won a spot in the series this year and to lose a 12.5% at Lafreniere. But as Eichel, McDavid and Draisaitl have shown this year: Lafreniere will not make the Habs a cup contender during Price's and Weber's cup window.

 

 

[Commandant]

Ok so i guess edmonton should have taken noah hanifin over connor mcdavid.  The leafs should have taken juolevi or sergachev over matthews

[hab29RETIRED]

11 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Ok so i guess edmonton should have taken noah hanifin over connor mcdavid.  The leafs should have taken juolevi or sergachev over matthews

No.  I’m saying that they made dumb moves even when they had McDavid land on their lap, they fxcked things up by signing guys like Lucic and Russell and trading giving away Hall for Larsson.  Signing a journeyman goalie to a Overpay long term contract before he actually proved much.

 

with the leafs, they actually did the perfect tank to get Matthews, cleared a lot of bad contracts and took on cap space for picks and prospects under Lou like the Kessel deal. Than  Dubas fxks things up by signing Mathews and Marner to big $ without getting full term. Over paying for Nylander.  Dubas has put them in cap hell.  The oilers actually did get the Hall, McDavid and Draisaitl contracts right, but not much else. Horrible UFA contacts for Souray, Russell, Lucic.  Those aren’t moves you make when you are tanking.

[Habsfan89]

1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

1. If you are tanking, you would want to lose against other teams that are taking so that they do not get a higher pick than you.

2. Taking bad contracts takes away contract spots for the handful of prospects and core players you want to build around

3. Taking sucks the life away from you team and makes free agents stay away from your loosing culture

 

Consecutive draft years do not yield quality draft picks. You need to also pick which years to tank and which years when not to tank because some years it is just not worth it

 

This is an opinion and not a hard fact, specially for goaltenders. 17 year old goaltenders are so far from the NHL that drafting them high and hoping to build on that expectation is not a sound plan. And Defenders out of the top 10 are hit and miss

 

I wanted the Habs to try to get Lafreniere, even suggested a few months ago to package draft picks and prospects just to be reminded that those trades are just not made: no team has traded a first overall pick (I have not checked, but I think it is true)

If is not ideal for the Habs future in 4-5 years to have won a spot in the series this year and to lose a 12.5% at Lafreniere. But as Eichel, McDavid and Draisaitl have shown this year: Lafreniere will not make the Habs a cup contender during Price's and Weber's cup window.

 

 

He would of made us better by adding scoring and playmaking abilities. Which   Would of filled holes up front. Then you can use your cap space to add D depth through UFA signing, which would improve our odds at making the playoffs in price and Weber's cup window. 

 

 

[xXx..CK..xXx]

9 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

Now ... since neither of us will ever convince the other to change our view, how about a new topic ... where do you stand on Bergevin ... see what happens until his contract is up, extend him or look for a replacement?

I am not trying to change your viewpoint. I am merely stating that your method will 1) never actually be used and 2) is ridiculous to ponder.

 

You say others have been “hoping for a cup for 26 years” and meanwhile I’ve seen posters hoping for a tank job year in an out for a decade now. I know which side I’d rather be “hopeful” for and there’s nothing wrong with it.

 

You can continue to be “hopeful” that the Habs will strategically tank and I will continue to be “hopeful” that the Habs win a cup. 
 

You’re acting like it’s some genius thought that a team would be better off drafting a 1st overall pick. Of course they would be better. The point is that it’s once again a ridiculous thought to expect the organization to base their entire season on whether or not a future draft will be good and tank as a result. There are a thousand reasons why this is true. Have you ever considered that if getting a high draft pick is soooo important, that a team can make a trade to obtain one, each and every year? Have you considered that tanking still involves a lottery which may likely lead to nowhere and makes focusing on such a specific aspect of an organization a risk?

 

Where you end in the draft is something an organization cannot control even when they tank. Playing your best hockey in order to try and win a cup is something you can control.

 

Habs29’s suggestion makes perfect sense. If you’re team is out of the playoff picture, by all means try to end near the bottom of the standings, as long as it is not by trading away players who will actually be valuable to your future success.

 

What you are suggesting as your preference is for the Habs to knowingly do poorly during a season where they technically have a shot. 
 

How many so call experts were wrong about the Habs against Pittsburgh? Yet some “experts” on here are always going to have that crystal ball and predict the perfect opportunity for the Habs to tank because “we all know they won’t win anyway”?

 

It’s actually this method that will lead fans to be on that hamster wheel you speak of.

 

As for the discussion about whether or not a team actually tried to tank or just was terrible, there’s no difference. Either way, the team ends up with an Elite player and for teams like Toronto, Buffalo, and Edmonton this hasn’t worked out. With that being said, I’d accept a tank when the team is actually very bad and out of the playoffs.

As for Bergevin, I don’t dwell on him as much as others. I think he has done better recently but I would replace him. Just my 2 cents since you asked. 

[Commandant]

5 of the last 31 first overall picks have won a cup with thr team that drafted them.

[alfredoh2009]

7 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

No.  I’m saying that they made dumb moves even when they had McDavid land on their lap, they fxcked things up by signing guys like Lucic and Russell and trading giving away Hall for Larsson.  Signing a journeyman goalie to a Overpay long term contract before he actually proved much.

 

with the leafs, they actually did the perfect tank to get Matthews, cleared a lot of bad contracts and took on cap space for picks and prospects under Lou like the Kessel deal. Than  Dubas fxks things up by signing Mathews and Marner to big $ without getting full term. Over paying for Nylander.  Dubas has put them in cap hell.  The oilers actually did get the Hall, McDavid and Draisaitl contracts right, but not much else. Horrible UFA contacts for Souray, Russell, Lucic.  Those aren’t moves you make when you are tanking.

wouldn't your points support the view on why building by tanking does not work ?

[alfredoh2009]

3 minutes ago, Commandant said:

5 of the last 31 first overall picks have won a cup with thr team that drafted them.

those 5, did they win the cup less than three years after being drafted?

 

THAT to me is where taking falls apart as a strategy for the Habs even if it was executed perfectly

[Commandant]

Just now, alfredoh2009 said:

those 5, did they win the cup less than three years after being drafted?

 

THAT to me is where taking falls apart as a strategy for the Habs even if it was executed perfectly

 

They are

 

Ovechkin (14 years)

Kane (3 years)

Crosby (4 years)

Lecavalier (6 years)

Fleury (6 years)

 

THe two that did it in 4 years or less (kane and crosby) also had other help (toews 3rd overall... fleury 1st and malkin 2nd) 

 

[dlbalr]

9 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Toronto was not rebuilding through the draft until the Shanaplan.  Under Burke we was giving away first rounders.

 

That's a dangerous typo on a Montreal message board...

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

7 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

That's a dangerous typo on a Montreal message board...

LMAO

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

Personally, We did it perfectly this year. What did fans want? To trade Petry? How long would it take to repIace him? This is backwards talk. MB had shed all UFA's but was not going to move RFA'S he still had control over like Domi or pending UFA'S next season like Petry and Tatar. Doesn't mean he wont move them next year at the deadline if they can't be resigned. 

Do we not have the 2nd most draft picks for a 3rd straight draftas well as currently boasting a top 3 prospect pool?

 

[hab29RETIRED]

2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

wouldn't your points support the view on why building by tanking does not work ?

No it just proves, whatever you strategy is, you have to have smart people running team.  When Pittsburg sold off their team, they got a number of top picks and and than had a management change that surrounded And supported those draft picks with good players.  Hell, Lemieux came out of retirement to play with Sid.

 

the hawks picked up Hossa and others.  They didn’t make the idiotic washed up Lucic/Souray deals.  They also didn’t trade away a stud like o’reilly for scrap pieces.

[hab29RETIRED]

1 hour ago, dlbalr said:

 

That's a dangerous typo on a Montreal message board...

Should have been he😀

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

3 hours ago, Commandant said:

5 of the last 31 first overall picks have won a cup with thr team that drafted them.

 

I think this has been an usually useful debate on "tanking." Confronted with cases like Toronto, Edmonton, or Buffalo, or Columbus, etc. - disastrous franchise failures despite repeated high picks - the pro-tankers say, "well, you have to tank AND do everything else right, then you win." But exactly the same thing could be said about NOT tanking, i.e., the Boston model. "Consistently draft and develop at an elite level, make a couple of smart trades/signings, then you win."

 

Hell, if Bob Gainey had not traded Macdonagh for Gomez, it is possible the Habs - with Subban, Markov, and Macdonagh on D - would have had that extra edge they needed in 2014/15. That team, the closest the Habs have come since 1993 to a contender, was built without tanking.

 

Since either model requires really sharp management making all or mostly the right moves, I would rather take the Boston model. The alternative is to gut the franchise for a half-decade, then hope like hell the team makes all the right decisions subsequently. Better to be a bubble team and work your way up to contention by ace drafting and development, than be a god-awful bottom-feeder for years and years, thanks.

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

I dont think Toronto did it right either. Sure they landed matthews Marner Nylander Reilly kadri etc all top draft picks. Really capitalizing on good 1st round picks. However, it took 12 years of utter pain (something I could never stomach). 12 years is a LONG time to be a complete embarrassment.

With all that said, they still have yet to even win a playoff round. That could all change tonight but, they have also pissed away the depth they created all those years with bad asset management and big early contracts creating a world of pain moving forward with just their salary cap alone.

For example when they had an oppurtunity  to leverage the entry salaries of the kids and make a run for it they failed to do so. They could of traded for McDonaugh and or Karlsson as an example. Now, up against the cap and all there stars being paid big money, they had to move picks and depth to get rid of players like Marleau etc while adding kerfoot Muzzin and Barrie (gone as a UFa) for the sideways cost of Kadri, multiple 1st rounders and some of there depth like brown etc. They still have substantial holes on the back line and are far less dangerous then their roster would have you think on paper. Would I like Marner Matthews Tavares Reilly  on my team?

Of course dont be ridiculous.

But players like Kapanen and  Nylander dermott are all extremly over hyped by bias canadian media.

 

Currently I believe the habs are in much better shape moving forward with an influx of kids coming to fruition, an army of prospects on the way and a war chest of cash to spend. If MB doesn't fk this up and can make some savvy moves to compliment the kids who are yet to be paid... we could be on to something  sooner then we ever imagined. Again( everything resting on Suzuki KK Romanov and to a lesser extent Poehling and Evans

 

 

Maybe I'm just a habs HOMER though

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

53 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I think this has been an usually useful debate on "tanking." Confronted with cases like Toronto, Edmonton, or Buffalo, or Columbus, etc. - disastrous franchise failures despite repeated high picks - the pro-tankers say, "well, you have to tank AND do everything else right, then you win." But exactly the same thing could be said about NOT tanking, i.e., the Boston model. "Consistently draft and develop at an elite level, make a couple of smart trades/signings, then you win."

 

Hell, if Bob Gainey had not traded Macdonagh for Gomez, it is possible the Habs - with Subban, Markov, and Macdonagh on D - would have had that extra edge they needed in 2014/15. That team, the closest the Habs have come since 1993 to a contender, was built without tanking.

 

Since either model requires really sharp management making all or mostly the right moves, I would rather take the Boston model. The alternative is to gut the franchise for a half-decade, then hope like hell the team makes all the right decisions subsequently. Better to be a bubble team and work your way up to contention by ace drafting and development, than be a god-awful bottom-feeder for years and years, thanks.

I think your dead on with Boston and even St. Louis as the only model worth its weight... draft well, manage your assets,play the UFA market and dont overpay on contracts in a cap world.

The 4 pillars of success.

 

Just imagine where Boston would be if they drafted Barzel, Connor and Chabot...instead of 2 no names and DeBrusk right before the 3. Of course hindsight is 20/20  but still, just imagine how disgustingly good they would be right now. They'd be an all world team.

We could add Boston to the allstar game tournament by there lonesome vs divisions...

[hab29RETIRED]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I think this has been an usually useful debate on "tanking." Confronted with cases like Toronto, Edmonton, or Buffalo, or Columbus, etc. - disastrous franchise failures despite repeated high picks - the pro-tankers say, "well, you have to tank AND do everything else right, then you win." But exactly the same thing could be said about NOT tanking, i.e., the Boston model. "Consistently draft and develop at an elite level, make a couple of smart trades/signings, then you win."

 

Hell, if Bob Gainey had not traded Macdonagh for Gomez, it is possible the Habs - with Subban, Markov, and Macdonagh on D - would have had that extra edge they needed in 2014/15. That team, the closest the Habs have come since 1993 to a contender, was built without tanking.

 

Since either model requires really sharp management making all or mostly the right moves, I would rather take the Boston model. The alternative is to gut the franchise for a half-decade, then hope like hell the team makes all the right decisions subsequently. Better to be a bubble team and work your way up to contention by ace drafting and development, than be a god-awful bottom-feeder for years and years, thanks.

You have to keep in mind that Boston has had high draft picks.

back when the habs and Bruins started to decline in the mid 90’s when Jeremy Jacobs was pinching pennies and we got Houle.
 

While both teams started their decline around the same time, the Bruins bottomed out better and also made better deals to get high number 1 picks.  From 1995 to 2011 (their cup win year), they had 9 top 10 picks including a #1, 2 and 5.  They had two top ten picks in 1997.

 

during the same period, we had 4 top tens and the highest was the #5 Price lottery pick in 2005.

 

They also drafted better by picking up more impactful players  (Bergeron, krejki, Marchand, Pasternak),  developed players better and outside of the Thornton and Seguin trade generally made better deals - fleecing the leafs (Rask and lottery picks), in multiple deals, which we haven’t done since the Kordic for Courtnall deal.

 

In the 2003 that is one of the best Drafts ever, and boasts a number of cup winners, or players that took their teams to the finals. The list includes:

-Fleury

-stall

-Horton

-Carter

-Brown

-seabrook

-Parise 

-getzlaf

-burns
-kesler 

-Richards,

-Perry
-Boyle 

-Bergeron

-Crawford

-Howard

-pavelski

-Byfuglien

 

the Bruins didn’t have a pick n the top 20, but still picked up Stuart and Bergeron.  They had Bergeron and Horton as cup winners from that draft class and used Stuart to  get other pieces.  In that great 2003 draft, despite having a top ten pick, we got Kostitsyn, Lapierre, O’Byrne and Halak (late round pick) as NHL’ers from that draft and actually took Corey Urquhaet five picks before Bergeron).

 

but the bruins did have more years as a bubble team with higher picks and once they got their foundation, did a better job on drafting, developing and trading and signing free agents.  Even if the bruins

haven’t finished in the bottom 10 the past decade, they did pick up high draft picks through trade.

you look at a team like Tampa, they have same late round gems, but still had 3 or 4 top 5 picks.

 

There have been some posts about how many #1 picks didn’t win the cup. Well if you look at the last 10 years of cup winners there are a lot of #1 or top 5 picks on those teams.

 Pittsburgh - Fleury #1, Crosby #1, Malkin #2, Stall #2, Kessel (Boston’s #5)

Chicago -  Toews #3, Kane #1

Boston- seguin #2, Horton (Florida’s #2 overall

LA - doughty #2, also used #5 pick Schenn in trade With Philly before winning cup

washington - ovechkin #1, Backstrom #4

St Louis - Peiterangelo - #4, Schenn #5 pick of LA,

So of the teams that won the cup in the last 10 years, Pittsburgh, Washington and Chicago have had #1 picks along with other high draft picks

st. Louis and Boston are the only ones that didn’t have #1 picks, but both did have top 5 picks on their roster.

 

bottom line is that you have to have elite players on your roster and while you can get elite players like Pasternak, Marchand, later in the draft.  You still need elite talent that is usually found in the top 5.  

[GHT120]

4 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I am not trying to change your viewpoint. I am merely stating that your method will 1) never actually be used and 2) is ridiculous to ponder.

And I'm not trying to change yours ... we just have different opinions ... I agree it will never be under Bergevin, doesn't mean it isn't a valid opinion or perhaps even the better option ... and to use your denigrating term, it is equally "ridiculous" to hope for trades for the difference making talent the habs need to significantly improve as Bergevin will not clean out the cupboard of picks and prospects to get those players as he is still in "rebuild through the draft mode" ... any deals will be relatively equal talent for relatively equal talent
 

You say others have been “hoping for a cup for 26 years” and meanwhile I’ve seen posters hoping for a tank job year in an out for a decade now. I know which side I’d rather be “hopeful” for and there’s nothing wrong with it.
Actually, I never said “hoping for a cup for 26 years” (I checked with a search) and I never said it was wrong with hopeful ... just that I have a different opinion ... you are the one constantly saying I am wrong
 

You can continue to be “hopeful” that the Habs will strategically tank and I will continue to be “hopeful” that the Habs win a cup. 
That is basically what I have been saying, different opinions ... no need to get so worked up
 

You’re acting like it’s some genius thought that a team would be better off drafting a 1st overall pick. Of course they would be better. The point is that it’s once again a ridiculous thought to expect the organization to base their entire season on whether or not a future draft will be good and tank as a result. There are a thousand reasons why this is true. Have you ever considered that if getting a high draft pick is soooo important, that a team can make a trade to obtain one, each and every year? Have you considered that tanking still involves a lottery which may likely lead to nowhere and makes focusing on such a specific aspect of an organization a risk?

I have made no claim to genius, that is your obsessive claim ... seriously doubt there are a thousand reasons ... but there are several very legitimate ones, for both approaches ...

 

NO, I had not considered that the picks are assigned by lottery ... sarcasm ... obviously, that is the process ... it is a risk, but you are guaranteed a high pick at very least (obviously not as good as #1)

As for trading for the top pick each and every year, that is what you would call a "ridiculous" idea ... almost never happens ... actual draft day deals have been:

• 2002&2003 Florida both years traded  the FIRST overall pick as part of a deal that included the THIRD overall pick
• 1999 when Canucks traded for the 4th overall pick from Chicago, then traded it to TBL for the first and then traded the first to the Atlanta for the second overall with the "promise they would draft Patrick Stephan so Brian Burke could draft the Sedins 2/3
• 1975 Philadelphia traded Bill Clement, Don McLean and 18th overall to Washington

Other first overall selections with picks that were traded for: 

• 1998 TBL traded for what became the #1 overall pick at the trade deadline
• 1983 Pittsburgh traded for what became the first overall pick before the 82-83 season
• 1982 Boston used a pick acquired in the summer of 1981
• 1980 Habs drafted first with a pick acquired before the 76/77 season
• 1971 habs drafted Guy Lafleur with a pick acquired in May 1970

So not something that can be done unless you planned well in advance or already had a VERY high pick to include in the deal 

 

Where you end in the draft is something an organization cannot control even when they tank. Playing your best hockey in order to try and win a cup is something you can control.

 

Habs29’s suggestion makes perfect sense. If you’re team is out of the playoff picture, by all means try to end near the bottom of the standings, as long as it is not by trading away players who will actually be valuable to your future success.

 

What you are suggesting as your preference is for the Habs to knowingly do poorly during a season where they technically have a shot. 

Going into the Pittsburgh series was a UNIQUE opportunity to get a #1 overall without having to "tank" and move out veterans ... Lafreniere would have made it easier for MB to move some combination of Domi. Drouin and tarter ***IF*** the opportunity presented itself to add a scoring RW or a high-end LHD ... thus my preference was to lose ... I accept that in your view that is WRONG ... as it is OPINIONs neither is right or wrong 
 

How many so call experts were wrong about the Habs against Pittsburgh? Yet some “experts” on here are always going to have that crystal ball and predict the perfect opportunity for the Habs to tank because “we all know they won’t win anyway”?

 

It’s actually this method that will lead fans to be on that hamster wheel you speak of.

Habs have been on a hampster wheel for 26 years

 

As for the discussion about whether or not a team actually tried to tank or just was terrible, there’s no difference. Either way, the team ends up with an Elite player and for teams like Toronto, Buffalo, and Edmonton this hasn’t worked out. With that being said, I’d accept a tank when the team is actually very bad and out of the playoffs.

There is a huge difference ... "just terrible" represents bad management, "tanking is a deliberate process ... the result for a single draft may be the same but tanking is not a single year plan  

As for Bergevin, I don’t dwell on him as much as others. I think he has done better recently but I would replace him. Just my 2 cents since you asked. 

100% agree ... 

 

Respond however you wish ... I've made my views clear ... I accept that you don't accept them ... also accept that you feel there is a right and wrong choice between our views ... so be it

[hab29RETIRED]

1 hour ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

I dont think Toronto did it right either. Sure they landed matthews Marner Nylander Reilly kadri etc all top draft picks. Really capitalizing on good 1st round picks. However, it took 12 years of utter pain (something I could never stomach). 12 years is a LONG time to be a complete embarrassment.

With all that said, they still have yet to even win a playoff round. That could all change tonight but, they have also pissed away the depth they created all those years with bad asset management and big early contracts creating a world of pain moving forward with just their salary cap alone.

For example when they had an oppurtunity  to leverage the entry salaries of the kids and make a run for it they failed to do so. They could of traded for McDonaugh and or Karlsson as an example. Now, up against the cap and all there stars being paid big money, they had to move picks and depth to get rid of players like Marleau etc while adding kerfoot Muzzin and Barrie (gone as a UFa) for the sideways cost of Kadri, multiple 1st rounders and some of there depth like brown etc. They still have substantial holes on the back line and are far less dangerous then their roster would have you think on paper. Would I like Marner Matthews Tavares Reilly  on my team?

Of course dont be ridiculous.

But players like Kapanen and  Nylander dermott are all extremly over hyped by bias canadian media.

 

Currently I believe the habs are in much better shape moving forward with an influx of kids coming to fruition, an army of prospects on the way and a war chest of cash to spend. If MB doesn't fk this up and can make some savvy moves to compliment the kids who are yet to be paid... we could be on to something  sooner then we ever imagined. Again( everything resting on Suzuki KK Romanov and to a lesser extent Poehling and Evans

 

 

Maybe I'm just a habs HOMER though

Totally agree with most of what you have said.  Leafs under the Shanaplan executed the tank perfectly. their issue came when a Dubas took over and didn’t do one of the two things he needed to do with Nylander, Marner and Mathews.  Bridge the to affordable deals or sign them to long term 8!year deals.  Instead he gave the. UFA type money before he had to and broke the bank.

However, The years they were bad under Burke and earlier, weren’t by design, they were just a lousy team run by lousy management. Just because a team is bad for 12 years, isn’t because they were tanking it.  They were taking shortcuts to get better.  Trading rask for raycroft.  Trading their #1 pIcka to Boston for a Kessel was a good scorer, but not a franchise player to build around

 

 

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

How they tanked for more then 10 years is irrelevant... they got the picks and prospects to get to where they are today.

None the less we agree... it's not something I'm willing to undertake as a GM

[GHT120]

37 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

.. draft well, manage your assets, play the UFA market and dont overpay on contracts in a cap world ...

 

I agree it is a valid approach ... however, I see it as difficult for the Habs to get top-end UFA talent (and retain any elite talent) without overpaying which as you point out is a no-no in the modern cap world ... making that model more challenging for them 

 

It will be interesting to see how MB approaches the offseason ... there are some teams in cap trouble, but not certain the "payoff" to taking on a bad contract would be much of an upgrade on what the Habs already have in terms of the current roster, more likely to receive picks and/or a good prospect  ... having broken the silent-pact by making the Aho offer sheet, curious to see if he tries again ... will at least keep the board hoping

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

That's hog wash...

They have had trouble signing UFA players because they've been sh*t over the years. That coupled with the inability to bang out or make good on 1st rounders for 5/7 years created this vacuum of mediocrity. Draft well and create a winning atmosphere with promise of a contender. Only then will players line up to win a cup in la belle province.

Of course you cant compete with Stamkos wanting to stay in TB or Tavares wanting to go home to Toronto. But we will never be able to sign a Panarin when he has to guess who is C is going to be...

[DON]

Great to see Lehkonen with winning goal and nice easy shutout.