Jump to content

Game 4, Flyers vs Habs, 3 PM


dlbalr

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I said, after five periods of being shut out. Which is correct.

 

Muller cannot be criticized for the blender as such. If he had just left the lines alone and been rewarded with two consecutive shutouts, he'd also be criticized. And there's not a coach in hockey who would not mix lines after 100 minutes of offensively impotent hockey.

The blender actually came out in the 3RD period of Game 3 not game 4 , he changed lines at the tail end of the 2 period but, we had hit 6 posts and many chances thwarted by Hart. Then in the 3RD Period he mashed it all up.Game 3 could of easily went our way. flame 4 was a mish mash from the get go.

 

You know who didn't over react after 5-0 Shit kicking ?

Alain Vigneault

 

In fact he made ZERO changes to his line up after that loss. Then scratched JVR and Adube K after a win!

Who says you cant make changes to a winning lineup ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

The blender actually came out in the 3RD period of Game 3 not game 4 , he changed lines at the tail end of the 2 period but, we had hit 6 posts and many chances thwarted by Hart. Then in the 3RD Period he mashed it all up.Game 3 could of easily went our way. flame 4 was a mish mash from the get go.

 

You know who didn't over react after 5-0 Shit kicking ?

Alain Vigneault

 

In fact he made ZERO changes to his line up after that loss. Then scratched JVR and Adube K after a win!

Who says you cant make changes to a winning lineup ?

 

Well, you're not going to hear me arguing that Vigneault is not an excellent coach.

 

Muller is doing what most coaches would do, but I have a fairly low opinion of NHL coaching in general: the tendency to overthink and over-coach, the tendency to let their own egos get in the way, the tendency to have arbitrary favourites/whipping boys, and above all the tendency toward risk-aversion. My guess is Muller is average. Julien is above average, and Vigneault is top-5...at least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

 

Let's not overstate things. Edmonton wasn't fleeced. Petry was traded as a rental player. We just got lucky that he liked Montreal and stuck around. Edmonton was going to lose him for nothing. It's not like they were trading the present incarnation of Jeff Petry. He developed his offensive game a lot since joining Montreal. He didn't show that kind of offensive upside in Edmonton.

 

Kulak and Byron were nice pickups, but let's not get too excited about depth players. Bergeron has pretty much thrown darts at a dart board acquiring depth players and hoping some pay off.

This here is exactly what's wrong with Montreal and it's fan base. He does great things and it's luck and chance...he makes a mistake and we hang himas a bum and kick him to the curb.

...

Call a spade a spade...he hit home runs with Byron Petry Kulak Suzuki Tatar... Not So much with Drouin.

 

It's ok to say it.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

He has the same issues, oozes with skill but like the scarecrow in wizard of oz, he obviously has no brain. 

AK46 like...but that poor fellow was just born too darn close to Chernobyl, so had a good excuse.:spamafote:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Well, you're not going to hear me arguing that Vigneault is not an excellent coach.

 

Muller is doing what most coaches would do, but I have a fairly low opinion of NHL coaching in general: the tendency to overthink and over-coach, the tendency to let their own egos get in the way, the tendency to have arbitrary favourites/whipping boys, and above all the tendency toward risk-aversion. My guess is Muller is average. Julien is above average, and Vigneault is top-5...at least.

We agree here totally. Which was my point. He over coached and essentially killed any chemistry we had built over the last 2 games.

 

I had a conversation with Rick Natress today at work... I told him I still hadn't forgiven him for that 1989 loss to Calgary. He had some very interesting things to say about Muller who he said he knows well. He also had some interesting things to say about Max Domi and how Muller moved him up the line up without CJ.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

 

48 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

:rolleyes:  I was going to ignore it the first time you said it, but now that you've said it again, rolling my eyes is pretty much the nicest thing I can say. Seth Jones is not overrated. Not by a long shot.

 

He is, vastly. 

I'll just leave these here, the first one is particularly enlightening. 

https://jfresh.substack.com/p/is-seth-jones-actually-elite

 

https://editorinleaf.com/2020/06/19/toronto-maple-leafs-overrated-player/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

Let's not overstate things. Edmonton wasn't fleeced. Petry was traded as a rental player. We just got lucky that he liked Montreal and stuck around. Edmonton was going to lose him for nothing. It's not like they were trading the present incarnation of Jeff Petry. He developed his offensive game a lot since joining Montreal. He didn't show that kind of offensive upside in Edmonton.

 

Kulak and Byron were nice pickups, but let's not get too excited about depth players. Bergeron has pretty much thrown darts at a dart board acquiring depth players and hoping some pay off.

 

OK, let's set Petry and Drouin aside.

 

We did very well indeed, I think, getting Suzuki and Tatar for MaxPac. As much as Domi has struggled this month, he has been much better than Galchenyuk. We stole Armia from Winnipeg. Kulak and Byron were excellent finds. Both Shaw trades were good.

 

Post-PK trade (which is a whole other debate), I would argue that most of the trade outcomes have been good. Arguably the bigger issue has been that most of the trades have not been of the big and bold variety.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, tomh009 said:

 

Does Drouin have any trade value any more? Would someone in the league still think that they can make a legit top-six winger out of him?

 

 

He has very little value now.  Nobody is stupid enough to give up a quality asset or draft pick for him.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

He averages 49 points per 82 game season for his career and is paid 5.5m per year and that seems about right to me. The only concern I had about the trade and still have is not that Sergachev is necessarily better, but that we traded a defenseman for a winger. But I was and am still hopeful he can play more consistently. 

 

I was not suggesting he was overpaid ... merely that he has not provided top line offence, perhaps not even top 6 ... Habs acquired him to provide offence and be a driving force in elevating the Habs offence ... he has not done that .

 

In terms of value ... amongst LWs with an AAV of $5-6M he was 13th in PPG ... broadened to $4-7 and he is 24th ... decent value ... not great but good

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, sbhatt said:

He has very little value now.  Nobody is stupid enough to give up a quality asset or draft pick for him.

 

Disagree ... but he needs an elite scorer to take advantage of his playmaking skills (his real strength) and take the pressure/expectations off his shoulders ... for example, with Edmonton (Draisaitl, McDavid) , Colorado (MacKinnon), Toronto (Matthews, Tavares) or even Buffalo (Eichel) I expect Drouin could be a 25-30 goal, 45-50 assist player ... he is a complimentary player

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

 

Disagree ... but he needs an elite scorer to take advantage of his playmaking skills (his real strength) and take the pressure/expectations off his shoulders ... for example, with Edmonton (Draisaitl, McDavid) , Colorado (MacKinnon), Toronto (Matthews, Tavares) or even Buffalo (Eichel) I expect Drouin could be a 25-30 goal, 45-50 assist player ... he is a complimentary player

No so fast.

 

Before being anything close to a 25 goal scorer he has to be a consistent 20+ goal scorer with the Habs best center. he has not done that ever. 
 

He is a bust, with a history of being a primadonna and long stretches of disinterested play

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know, illWill has a point in a way. Drouin is a 15-20 goal, 45-50 point W.

 

Yes, he is a soft, unreliable, inconsistent, one-dimensional 45-50 point W. But still, those are serviceable numbers for a 2nd line FW in the NHL. Analogies with Kostitsyn and Galchenyuk are not inappropriate; those guys also put in credible seasons in that role, and like Drouin, they never seemed to improve; they just kind of arrived in the NHL as #6 FWs and flatlined thereafter.

 

Possibly the real problem with Drouin is that, on this team, he is expected to be a core piece and an offensive generator. What he really is is #6 FW secondary scoring.

 

And this gets to something I've long said about Drouin. He needs to be the 6th FW on a good team, an "added bonus" weapon to a club that doesn't rely on him to be more than that. Sadly, Montreal cast him as our Most Talented Player and a guy who was expected to drive the offence. I mean, remember - he was originally brought in to be our #1C, fer chrissakes.😄 The mind reels.

 

Perhaps if we had a stronger overall FW unit, we could carry Drouin and just be satisfied with his uninspiring point totals and his soft, inconsistent play, while enjoying those occasional bursts where he actually plays like an impact player.

 

As it is, we traded a puck-moving top-4 LD to get him - creating an organizational hole without solving any organizational weaknesses, which compounds the pain.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

This here is exactly what's wrong with Montreal and it's fan base. He does great things and it's luck and chance...he makes a mistake and we hang himas a bum and kick him to the curb.

...

Call a spade a spade...he hit home runs with Byron Petry Kulak Suzuki Tatar... Not So much with Drouin.

 

It's ok to say it.

 

Suzuki and Tatar was a home run if Suzuki continues to progress and this year wasn't a fluke for Tatar.

 

Kulak and Byron were doubles. They're useful players, but they're not big difference makers. Every GM grabs a some useful players on waivers and throw away trades. It's not worth celebrating.

 

Petry was a ground rule double. He was a desirable rental and a lot of GMs were interested. It's not like MB saw something nobody else saw and made a deal. Now, getting him to re-sign was a home run. But he hardly fleeced Edmonton.

 

Continuing the baseball analogies, MB is like what I hate about modern baseball - some home runs, but a lot more swinging and missing. He's a .200 hitter with a little power. Not someone I believe in to take a team anywhere.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

 

Suzuki and Tatar was a home run if Suzuki continues to progress and this year wasn't a fluke for Tatar.

 

Kulak and Byron were doubles. They're useful players, but they're not big difference makers. Every GM grabs a some useful players on waivers and throw away trades. It's not worth celebrating.

 

Petry was a ground rule double. He was a desirable rental and a lot of GMs were interested. It's not like MB saw something nobody else saw and made a deal. Now, getting him to re-sign was a home run. But he hardly fleeced Edmonton.

 

Continuing the baseball analogies, MB is like what I hate about modern baseball - some home runs, but a lot more swinging and missing. He's a .200 hitter with a little power. Not someone I believe in to take a team anywhere.

-Have you seen our record with and without Byron in the line up? Its staggering. To get a multi 20 goal scorer for free off the waiver wire was in fact a home run.

 

-Kulak has worked his way into our top 4... we gave up to career nobody's...

 

-this year wasnt a fluke for Tatar? Hes outscored Pacioretty in the 2 seasons since being traded on his own and is 1 goal shy of 7 straight 20 goal seasons. Thats consistency! SUZUKI is already entranched in our top lines and we still haven't had a taste yet of what Struble could bring (if anything at all)

 

-Petry was traded at a time when deadline deals costed a pretty penny. He's now our #1 Dman and we got him for a 2nd rounder and a 5th. Because we resigned him is irrelevant. MB still acquired him and resigned him. Does that count as 2 at bats?

 

I think your grasping at straws not giving the man his due when deserved. Its a bad look.

 

 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Add to those Domi for Galchenyuk has worked well. 

 

Weber for Subban looks like a win. 

 

Getting two picks for Andrew Shaw given his concussion history (and the fact he had another long-term concussion in Chicago) looks like a win. 

 

Danault and a 2nd for Fleischmann and Weise was another solid win.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

... I had a conversation with Rick Natress today at work... I told him I still hadn't forgiven him for that 1989 loss to Calgary. He had some very interesting things to say about Muller who he said he knows well. He also had some interesting things to say about Max Domi and how Muller moved him up the line up without CJ.

 

What a tease you are (LOL)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

Disagree ... but he needs an elite scorer to take advantage of his playmaking skills (his real strength) and take the pressure/expectations off his shoulders ... for example, with Edmonton (Draisaitl, McDavid) , Colorado (MacKinnon), Toronto (Matthews, Tavares) or even Buffalo (Eichel) I expect Drouin could be a 25-30 goal, 45-50 assist player ... he is a complimentary player

 

2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

No so fast.

 

Before being anything close to a 25 goal scorer he has to be a consistent 20+ goal scorer with the Habs best center. he has not done that ever. 
 

He is a bust, with a history of being a primadonna and long stretches of disinterested play

 

Are you really comparing what the Habs have had a centre (even now have with youngsters KK and Suzuki still developing) to the elite centres on the teams I mentioned?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

-Have you seen our record with and without Byron in the line up? Its staggering. To get a multi 20 goal scorer for free off the waiver wire was in fact a home run.

 

-Kulak has worked his way into our top 4... we gave up to career nobody's...

 

-this year wasnt a fluke for Tatar? Hes outscored Pacioretty in the 2 seasons since being traded on his own and is 1 goal shy of 7 straight 20 goal seasons. Thats consistency! SUZUKI is already entranched in our top lines and we still haven't had a taste yet of what Struble could bring (if anything at all)

 

-Petry was traded at a time when deadline deals costed a pretty penny. He's now our #1 Dman and we got him for a 2nd rounder and a 5th. Because we resigned him is irrelevant. MB still acquired him and resigned him. Does that count as 2 at bats?

 

I think your grasping at straws not giving the man his due when deserved. Its a bad look.

 

 

 

You are over-rating our players so much. The fact that the team sucks without Byron says more about the team than it does about Byron. I love the guy and it's great having 20 goal guys, but you're not in a good place if you're relying that hard on him. Kulak being in our top 4 doesn't mean he's a top 4 guy. We just have no depth on the left side! This is the first time Tatar has topped 60 points and he's never netted 30 goals. Don't try telling me he's as good as Pacioretty. Yes, Suzuki is looking good and is a huge reason why I felt hope with this team for the first time in the last five years. But he's still young. Last year people were thinking Domi was going to be a #1 center and now people are running him out of town. Petry has half the player back then that he is now. We got him at such a low price because that was his value at the time! Not being MB is brilliant.

 

If not for a pandemic, this team would have missed the playoffs for the 4th time in 5 years. That is not acceptable if you are not rebuilding, which this team has never had the courage to do. Some successes along the way does not excuse his failure to put together a winning team. We seem to be at least angling in the right direction, but we need a GM who will do more than provide glimmers of hope from time to time. In 8 years, they've won three and a half playoff series (the play-in round being the half). In what world is that resume worthy of keeping your job?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

Add to those Domi for Galchenyuk has worked well. 

 

Weber for Subban looks like a win. 

 

Getting two picks for Andrew Shaw given his concussion history (and the fact he had another long-term concussion in Chicago) looks like a win. 

 

Danault and a 2nd for Fleischmann and Weise was another solid win.


I might add Armia (and Mason) for Bourque as another solid win.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

18 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

 

You are over-rating our players so much. The fact that the team sucks without Byron says more about the team than it does about Byron. I love the guy and it's great having 20 goal guys, but you're not in a good place if you're relying that hard on him. Kulak being in our top 4 doesn't mean he's a top 4 guy. We just have no depth on the left side! This is the first time Tatar has topped 60 points and he's never netted 30 goals. Don't try telling me he's as good as Pacioretty. Yes, Suzuki is looking good and is a huge reason why I felt hope with this team for the first time in the last five years. But he's still young. Last year people were thinking Domi was going to be a #1 center and now people are running him out of town. Petry has half the player back then that he is now. We got him at such a low price because that was his value at the time! Not being MB is brilliant.

 

If not for a pandemic, this team would have missed the playoffs for the 4th time in 5 years. That is not acceptable if you are not rebuilding, which this team has never had the courage to do. Some successes along the way does not excuse his failure to put together a winning team. We seem to be at least angling in the right direction, but we need a GM who will do more than provide glimmers of hope from time to time. In 8 years, they've won three and a half playoff series (the play-in round being the half). In what world is that resume worthy of keeping your job?

 

Its funny, Petry isn't a home run trade for you and merely a double, cause he was in the last year of his contract and we had to re-sign him, and the Oilers were going to lose him anyway. 

We traded the final year of Pacioretty though (who the VGK then had to sign to an extension) for a guy with 3 years left who has outscored Pacioretty in each of the first two years after the deal, plus a prime centre prospect who just had a strong rookie year and is producing in the playoffs against guys like Malkin, Crosby and Couturier, and a 2nd dround pick,.... but that's not a home run either?

This seems to be massively changing the goal posts here on players traded with 1 year left til UFA. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

You know, illWill has a point in a way. Drouin is a 15-20 goal, 45-50 point W.

 

Yes, he is a soft, unreliable, inconsistent, one-dimensional 45-50 point W. But still, those are serviceable numbers for a 2nd line FW in the NHL. Analogies with Kostitsyn and Galchenyuk are not inappropriate; those guys also put in credible seasons in that role, and like Drouin, they never seemed to improve; they just kind of arrived in the NHL as #6 FWs and flatlined thereafter.

 

Possibly the real problem with Drouin is that, on this team, he is expected to be a core piece and an offensive generator. What he really is is #6 FW secondary scoring.

 

And this gets to something I've long said about Drouin. He needs to be the 6th FW on a good team, an "added bonus" weapon to a club that doesn't rely on him to be more than that. Sadly, Montreal cast him as our Most Talented Player and a guy who was expected to drive the offence. I mean, remember - he was originally brought in to be our #1C, fer chrissakes.😄 The mind reels.

 

Perhaps if we had a stronger overall FW unit, we could carry Drouin and just be satisfied with his uninspiring point totals and his soft, inconsistent play, while enjoying those occasional bursts where he actually plays like an impact player.

 

As it is, we traded a puck-moving top-4 LD to get him - creating an organizational hole without solving any organizational weaknesses, which compounds the pain.

 

 

I agree, his expectations from some of the fan base are to carry the offense but he is who he is, a top 6 forward with glimpses of being elite and also garbage. He is paid accordingly, so it shouldn't be an issue. If we want to trash Bergevin for that trade then so be it, but i think the chance he would be closer to a point per game player was worth it at the time. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Its funny, Petry isn't a home run trade for you and merely a double, cause he was in the last year of his contract and we had to re-sign him, and the Oilers were going to lose him anyway. 


We traded the final year of Pacioretty though (who the VGK then had to sign to an extension) for a guy with 3 years left who has outscored Pacioretty in each of the first two years after the deal, plus a prime centre prospect who just had a strong rookie year and is producing in the playoffs against guys like Malkin, Crosby and Couturier, and a 2nd dround pick,.... but that's not a home run either?

This seems to be massively changing the goal posts here on players traded with 1 year left til UFA. 

 

My main contention with the Petry deal is simply that it was the going rate for a player of his stature at the time. It's not like it was some kind of brilliant fleecing. It's turned out extremely well, yes. But do you really think they anticipated him becoming this good? No way. It's like calling Vegas drafting William Karlsson brilliant. It was luck!  Both Vegas and Columbus thought Josh Anderson was the better player and it took a 1st rounder to convince them to settle for Karlsson, mediocre 4th liner to that point.

 

In what world did Tatar outscore Pacioretty this year? Pacioretty's 32g and 34a is more than Tatar's 22g and 39a last time I checked. You are literally making things up now. Even so, it's still too early for me to call it a home run. I need more than one 60 point season and a promising rookie year before I can make that call. If Pacioretty was for sure not going to re-sign, then yeah, we can already call it a home run. But it felt more like him getting run out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

 

Are you really comparing what the Habs have had a centre (even now have with youngsters KK and Suzuki still developing) to the elite centres on the teams I mentioned?  

No ,

comparing him to patches and how he managed to produce

despite the centre’s 

 

rhen we can make your comparison

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Its funny, Petry isn't a home run trade for you and merely a double, cause he was in the last year of his contract and we had to re-sign him, and the Oilers were going to lose him anyway. 

We traded the final year of Pacioretty though (who the VGK then had to sign to an extension) for a guy with 3 years left who has outscored Pacioretty in each of the first two years after the deal, plus a prime centre prospect who just had a strong rookie year and is producing in the playoffs against guys like Malkin, Crosby and Couturier, and a 2nd dround pick,.... but that's not a home run either?

This seems to be massively changing the goal posts here on players traded with 1 year left til UFA. 

 

Petry was a HUGE win ... but it isn't quite fair to compere that deal with Pacs ... Max signed an extension hours after he trade was made ... seems likely that Vegas was allowed to talk to Max's agent about the parameters of a deal before the deal was made ... increasing what GKs were willing to pay ... b it I do count that deal as a win

 

If I recall, MB waited until almost the last minute before making the Petry deal ... BEAUTIFULLY played ... but at the time of the deal there was no guarantee that Petry would re-sign ... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...