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Mark Napier

Trade package could help

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I think if we packaged Ribeiro and Dags we could get a pretty good defenseman. If this duo has a chance together they can put up some good numbers as witnessed in ’03 and in juniors when they were together. This can be a selling point to trade them together. Now I don’t really like the idea of trading Ribeiro but It is a good idea on a few fronts:

1) Habs avoid the backlash from Ribeiro of sitting Dags. He will probably not play as well, at least for a while, if Dags is demoted or just traded by himself. He might even slip into his ’02 form without his friend around. A lot of the success he had in ’03 can be credited to Dag’s arrival. It wasn’t a coincidence that he had his best season when Dags became a habs.

2) It opens roster spots on the second line for Plekanec and Perezhogin. Lines would look like this:

Kovalev Koivu Zednik

Perezhogin Plekanec Ryder

Bulis Bonk Sundstrom

Higgins Begin Vandermeer/Ivanans

Second line becomes faster and more defensively aware. Watching Dags and Ribeiro try to keep pace with the play and back check has been almost painful to watch so far this season. When Zednik comes back I can’t see him going anywhere other than back on the first line. The enforcer would have a legitimate, full time spot in the line up. An enforcer upgrade could be made but it can probably be handled by what we have in the system.

3) It would give us a good power play quarterback which seems to be lacking or at least not too abundant on our defensive core. That’s if Gainey decides to go that route. Perhaps he feels that a more defensive defenseman is needed. Either way a dman is needed because after Markov it thins out pretty quick. Is Souray the #2 dman? Probably but he is so inconsistent that it’s hard to rely on him every night. A top 3 dman would make some difference especially on the power play in my opinion.

I don’t relish the thought of trading Ribeiro because I think he may still blossom with the new rules because despite his lack of speed and defensive awareness, he has incredible vision and smarts concerning the offensive side of his game. It would address a lot of issues if he was traded along with Dags to a team with a good dman to spare. Gainey could sell the fact that they play well together and know each other well from playing so much together. A team that is struggling offensively could take a chance with the duo and the Habs end up with a missing piece of the puzzle while letting our promising new players get more ice time.

:hlogo:

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Mark Napier, very interesting.

I don't think montreal could trade Dags all by himself and get any value back unless B.G. got a decent draft choice. Trading Ribs and Dags would be a huge gamble as injuries are already hurting the team. Plus which offensive defenseman could Montreal obtain?

Phoenix is looking at unloading players but I think they are still dangling forwards, not defence.

It is probably too early for trades unless another team has a rash of injuries to their forwards.

Good post though as I have wondered what management has in store for Dags.

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i would not shed a single tear if both those guys left. Frankly, I doubt that Ribeiro's value will get higher than it is right now. I hope I'm wrong, I want them both to succeed and I think that at least Ribs can have some measure of success in montreal.

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Originally posted by Mark Napier

Kovalev Koivu Zednik

Perezhogin Plekanec Ryder

Bulis Bonk Sundstrom

Higgins Begin Vandermeer/Ivanans

:hlogo:

I don't think you can rely on the youth for a whole season. Now they play great, but they get settbacks, and you dont know how the youth will cope with that.

And i don't like the 4th line this way. Every game you play with a Goon now. They are just there when you need them, and expect it's gonna be rough!

[Edited on 2005/10/18 by Dutch_Habs_Fan]

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Wishful thinking, right now their trade value is minimal. Ribs needs to play like he can, and Dags just flat out needs a lucky streak before we get a pretty good defenceman back.

Plus, I don't want Dags traded yet. I just have to see what he'll do on the fourth line. (My prediction: suck)

I'll be happy to eat those words, but I don't think it will happen.

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Originally posted by Dutch_Habs_Fan
Originally posted by Mark Napier

Kovalev Koivu Zednik

Perezhogin Plekanec Ryder

Bulis Bonk Sundstrom

Higgins Begin Vandermeer/Ivanans

:hlogo:

I don't think you can rely on the youth for a whole season. Now they play great, but they get settbacks, and you dont know how the youth will cope with that.

And i don't like the 4th line this way. Every game you play with a Goon now. They are just there when you need them, and expect it's gonna be rough!

[Edited on 2005/10/18 by Dutch_Habs_Fan]

Well Dutch the youth is here to stay and in my opinion they are deserve more ice time. They’ve already taken a major role on the team as it its. Plekanec and Higgins aren’t exactly green rookies. Don’t forget they have toiled in the AHL for a few years now and they both look like they’ve been in this league for years. The only difference in the forwards between the current line up and the one I suggested is moving Plekanec and Perezhogin to the 2nd line. My line up doesn’t add any new players to the forward lines and so far they have been doing pretty well with these young players and I don’t see it changing. I have more faith in Plekanec than in Ribeiro or Dagenais when it comes to making mistakes or being defensively responsible. Plekanec is a +4 while Dags is -3 and Ribeiro is -2. Do you really think Dags and Ribeiro are more reliable than Plekanec, Perezhogin and Higgins?

As for the fourth line that you don’t like, I think it is a waste to have Plekanec on this line. Having a full time enforcer is important I think because the fourth line is the energy line. Don’t forget Julien was toying with the idea of keeping both Vandermeer and Ivanans before the season started. He knows the importance of this role. This line should be filled with role players like Begin who leads by example and hard work and an enforcer type who can drop a big hit on someone or inspire the team with a fight. If there are nights when Julien feels that an enforcer is not needed in the line up, Dandenault can step into the fourth line and another of our extra dmen gets a shot at playing a game. As I suggested we might need un upgrade at the enforcer position. If we had someone of the caliber of Chris Simon on this line it would be great because we wouldn’t be sacrificing skill for the sake of having an enforcer in the line up. Garth Murray could possibly fit in here because as I witnessed in a Bulldogs game he can fight and his hockey skills aren’t too bad. Higgins will eventually grow out of this line to become a 3rd or 2nd line player. Other than moving Plekanec to the 2nd line this line stays the same as well.

So as you see the youth that we would have to rely on are actually already in the line up and doing a good job. It’s moving them to different lines to replace players that are under achieving and may be left behind in this new era of hockey because of their lack of speed and defensive awareness.

:hlogo:

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Originally posted by Trizzak

Wishful thinking, right now their trade value is minimal. Ribs needs to play like he can, and Dags just flat out needs a lucky streak before we get a pretty good defenceman back.

Plus, I don't want Dags traded yet. I just have to see what he'll do on the fourth line. (My prediction: suck)

I'll be happy to eat those words, but I don't think it will happen.

I don’t know how you can say that a guy that led the team in points in ’03 and another guy that was on pace for 30 goals have no trade value. Granted with the new rules they may have a difficult time reproducing those results but to say no trade value is quite an exaggeration. And packaged, these players could make an attractive duo for some team to consider. I’m just glad this team has the luxury of even considering trading these guys. Shows what an improved team we have.

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I still think that this is pulling the trigger too quickly.

The talent is there with all of these players. Albeit there are difficulties with Dagenais & Ribeiro but they still have their worth as players. At worst, they'll be good depth, at best, they could very well turn around.

I can still remember discussions which had it that Plekanec wouldn't even make the team... well, guess what? I can still remember discussions which had it that Théodore should have been traded to LA and not Garon because Garon is a better goalie... well, guess what?

The point of this is, the enjoyment of discussion & speculation aside, we are not aware of all that is involved with these players and the team/league dynamics and Gainey & co. are much more in the know. If those guys are still there, it's for a reason.

On top of that, some of the trade suggestions mentioned here border on feverish illusions.

:hlogo::ghg::hlogo:

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It would make my day to see both of those guys leave the Habs.

I don't hate them, I just don't think either one of them is strong enough to play the second line. (and where else could you put either of them?)

I want a cup :clap:

If winning a cup means getting rid of players then do it.

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Mark i totally agree on your story. I love it that the youth is playing, and kicking ass! But i doubt it that they will be doing that the whole season. Youth is most of the time very unpredictable and have many ups and downs in their play. So i don't think they will contribute during a whole season. And you have to protect them, before burning them down.

And the 4th line was superb with the players starting the season. Takes the pressure of the first lines, the fourth line contibuted not only on energizing the play, but also in goals and realy good defence and attack. So it was good as it was (allthough i also like to see Higgins get more icetime, gotta love the guy!)

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They have no trade value because Dagenais sucks, he too slow with no physical presence, and right now Ribeiro is playing like shit.

RIght now you couldn't give Dagenais away. He would clear waivers if Montreal decided to send him down.

And Ribeiro wouldn't attract much more than a depth defensman.

What happened in '03 was in 2003. And what happened in Jr hockey with these two isn't going to happen again, this is the NHL.

So no, there won't be a trade of Dagenais and Ribeiro for a decent defensman

I could understand if Montreal was 1-5 or 0-6, but there 4-2 right now. Why make a trade? WHy not wait for maybe 25 games into the season and see where the team is. Even better, why mess with team chemistry and make a trade this year. There should be plenty of room next year under the cap, with Hossa and Dagenais history, to make a move on a free agent.

Leave the team alone for now. Lets let the team adjust and get better.

[Edited on 2005/10/18 by kaos]

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I don't agree with you kaos but it's not the first time. Packaged, these guys have more value than either one separately. What happened in '03 can't happen again and there will be no trade?? Why not? You can read the future? OK who's going to win the cup?:lol:

Seriously, It's just an idea to squeeze the ultimate value out of these 2 guys based on their past history together. That's how you evaluate players, by what they have done in the past. When Zednik comes back do you sit out Perzhogin or Dagenais? Dags obviously. And when Plekanec shows that he is more effective as a second line center than Ribeiro where do you put Ribeiro? On the fourth line as our enforcer.:lol: Ribeiro can play nowhere other than the second line to have any type of effectiveness and once Plekanec shows he is better there, Ribeiro is out of luck. So now you have 2 guys not in the line up that are just sitting there gathering dust. Is thier trade value increasing?? NO. Trade them now while their last season is still in recent memory and entice other gms by offering them as a package. I think it could work well for us. If we didn't have players waiting in the wings to fill these spots I wouldn't even suggest this. I would let the 2 of them stay on the second line and see if they could work it out. But it's of a trade about moving them out of the way as much as trying to get something in return. Kind of like the Hossa deal. Only so many spots available and frankly they're just dead weight compared to what we have to replace them.

:hlogo:

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Ok Mr Genious, then what are you proposing in return for Mike Ribeiro and Pierre Dagneais? Exactly who do you think the Montreal Canadiens can get for these two guys right now, that will help them anymore than the players currently on their roster?

And I so glad you in favour of the Hossa trade. What a disaster so far. Marcel Hossa. 3 goals 3 assists and a +2 in 7 games. Garth Murray. 2 GP in Hamilton 0 points and -2. IF we can get Garth Murray for Hossa I can only imagine what we can get for Dagenais...hes gotta be worth a Franchise Defensman atleast!!!! Wow what a steal, he's certainly dead weight. I certainly glad your not Montreal GM. We'd be back to the Houle years.

No. I would just leave this team alone. Give them time to develop their chemistry. Realize Mark Napier, that these guys haven't played together in over year. If you've ever played hockey, you'd realize it takes time to learn your linemated, and try and predict what their going to do, and where their going to be on the ice.

Give them 15 or 20 games to sort themselves out.

If you wanna make a move, waive Pierre Dagenais...he is absolutley worthless in the new NHL. Theres a reason he doesn't have a point. He's outdated.

But please do me one favour and answer my question. Who do you honestly think Montreal can get in the trade that your proposing????

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I don’t know how you can say that a guy that led the team in points in ’03 and another guy that was on pace for 30 goals have no trade value. Granted with the new rules they may have a difficult time reproducing those results but to say no trade value is quite an exaggeration. And packaged, these players could make an attractive duo for some team to consider. I’m just glad this team has the luxury of even considering trading these guys. Shows what an improved team we have.

I really believe that, unless the player has shown considerable consistency in his production and performance over a number of years, then all pre-lockout years are forgotten (in terms of trade value).

The way the game is being played is changing and for now the way the players adapt to that change is what will determine their trade value, not a one or two season performance.

Ribeiro, Ryder, Dags, Souray all have the potential to have relatively high trade values (Dags with probably the lowest of the four), and probably would have at the conclusion, or during, the previously played season. But at this moment, and its been evident since the CBA has been in effect, GMs are not willing to trade for contingent potential (unless cap considerations are in the situation). Hossa was for Healty, becuase Ottawa knew the talent they were getting.

No team, including the Habs now, know what kind of consistent performance they will get out of those four players in particular. The first half season will give the teams, scouts and GMs an opportunity to judge the true potential of iffy talent under the new rules.

...That is of course the "new" standard of rule-enforcement stands ;)

:ghg:

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This is all grossly unfair to Ribiero.

Everyone hates this guy because he's physically petite and a pretty boy. Let's remember that Ribeiro has (despite his reputation for being soft) stuck it to the doubters ever since her first came up. First, he was told he had to improve on his skating or he'd never make the team. So he improved on his skating. Then he was told he'd have to improve his defensive play or he'd never make the team. Well, he was +15 last year. Then they told him he'd have to get better on faceoffs or he'd never make the team. Lo and behold---he had a great faceoff % in 03-04. AND he merely led our team in points, as a deft playmaker and prototypical 2nd-line centre.

So Ribs has paid his dues and shown he can meet challenges. He deserves a good, sustained shot at proving he can play in the 'new NHL.'

As for Dagenais, that's another story, but his value is so negligible it may not be worth getting rid of him.

Finally: it would be crazy to rely on rookies to make our second line on the basis of five games. If I had a dime for every rookie who's looked great for a few weeks before tanking, I'd have more unearned dough than Keith Tkatchuk.

[Edited on 2005/10/18 by Roo-AH! Roo-AH!]

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Originally posted by Mark Napier

I don’t know how you can say that a guy that led the team in points in ’03 and another guy that was on pace for 30 goals have no trade value. Granted with the new rules they may have a difficult time reproducing those results but to say no trade value is quite an exaggeration. And packaged, these players could make an attractive duo for some team to consider. I’m just glad this team has the luxury of even considering trading these guys. Shows what an improved team we have.

I'm saying that they have no trade value for us.

Sure, many gm's would take Ribiero right now... they just wouldn't give up much to get him.

If he were to be traded, I'd rather let him start playing like he can so Gainey can trade for a great defenceman.

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I don't think a major trade will be happening anytime soon, but, for argument's sake, I would think that Zednik and Sourray are also "trade material" in appropriate circumstances for the habs.

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There's a big, physical defenceman out there, Brenden Witt, who is looking for a new home...however, I don't think Washington is looking to load up on defensive liabilities who haven't been scoring, so don't think habs will be getting him for Ribs and Dag...more likely, we'll see dags waived if he can't handle 4th line duty, especially after Zednik is back...maybe see the Habs dress 7 defencemen, and double shift a forward, or put Dandenalt up front for a few shifts a game. Oh...and now for second guessing time...should have waived Dagenais at start of season and kept Hossa...hindsight is 20-20!

[Edited on 2005/10/18 by hankhab]

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Like Napier was saying… and many agreed its an option we have … which is mighty different than actually doing it… acknowledging options for trade is all fair.. I agree we have to let Dag and Ribeiro a few more games and maybe they wake up … and if they do that doesn’t mean we still cant trade them! I think in fact that’s what Napier like myself are hoping for … if we have depth in the offense and some other teams are lacking and have something to offer back..well why not!?!?!

Do what works BEST for us… if it means keeping them both than keep them both whatever… But one fact is for sure! We are close to the salary cap and Were still without a Sure number one dman and for sure without a Number 2 dman!

All is fair in love and war! And Hockey to my eyes is Both!!

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Give Ribs a few more games like tonight and soon enough we'll be seeing last season's poster boy!

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