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Andre Boisclair wins PQ leadership vote


Pierre the Great

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Andre Boisclair wins PQ leadership vote

Well what do you think?

well, it looks like he has blue hair -- I like that.

First, are you a federalist or a sovereignist?

I did some work with Réné Lévesque many years ago when I was a sovereignist. Before that I was a federalist. Now I'm open-minded.

Second, do you think Boisclair is a good choice for the party?

For the party? Well, he's gay and does coke -- Party On!

Third, do you think he could lead Québec?

Seems well-spoken and the right balance of emotional yet reasonable. Handsome and gracious -- hmm, why are all the colourful politicians from Québec? Yes I think he could lead Québec. He has some time before the next election to shore up a coalition of union/sovereignist coalition. What the PQ needs to do is add allophones to that coalition -- a high profile shodow minister from a non-white ethnic group would help. They have to make sovereignty appeal to business by offering tax cuts especially to emerging high-tech players, and at the same time they have to make the option 'cool' so they rekindle the spirit of the middle-aged ex-Harmonium-hippies who sparked the movement in the 70s, and so they don't face a wall of 90% rejection from the English block -- hopefully some anglos who are more cosmopolitain could vote for the PQ if it were open and cool.

Finally, Harper as Canadian PM could help unite Québecois behind the PQ.

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Originally posted by Pierre the Great

Andre Boisclair wins PQ leadership vote

Well what do you think?

Not a whole lot...

First, are you a federalist or a sovereignist?

I tend to be a federalist but I also understand the sovereignist attitude.

Second, do you think Boisclair is a good choice for the party?

Who's André Boisclair?

Third, do you think he could lead Quebec?

Who's André Boisclair? & does being a homosexual and doing coke (if these are true) necessarily make for good qualities for leadership? I don't think so.

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Originally posted by JeanLucPilon

Second, do you think Boisclair is a good choice for the party?

For the party? Well, he's gay and does coke -- Party On!

Third, do you think he could lead Québec?

Seems well-spoken and the right balance of emotional yet reasonable. Handsome and gracious -- hmm, why are all the colourful politicians from Québec? Yes I think he could lead Québec. He has some time before the next election to shore up a coalition of union/sovereignist coalition. What the PQ needs to do is add allophones to that coalition -- a high profile shodow minister from a non-white ethnic group would help. They have to make sovereignty appeal to business by offering tax cuts especially to emerging high-tech players, and at the same time they have to make the option 'cool' so they rekindle the spirit of the middle-aged ex-Harmonium-hippies who sparked the movement in the 70s, and so they don't face a wall of 90% rejection from the English block -- hopefully some anglos who are more cosmopolitain could vote for the PQ if it were open and cool.

Finally, Harper as Canadian PM could help unite Québecois behind the PQ.

I think the boat has kinda sailed on anglos voting PQ. I think allophones are generally skeptical of sovereignty as:

a) QC's dedication to the allophones

B) QC's dedication to suffrage (i know thats ridiculous, but i think the idea of a quasi-ethnic separation ennervates a lot of immigrants)

b1) PQ's opinion of non gauls (again, i dont think this, but souvien les ethniques de mr. Parizeau)

b2) the hesitance of some non-euro francophones to join the party

c) economic consequences of disturbing the status quo

Again, just before I get flamed. I don't believe all of these! Just some perceptions that the PQ might have to overcome to get a Allophone coalition... most allophone immigrants wanted to come to Canada first, Quebec second. The native groups will never vote PQ.

Shit, if Harper gets PM, I'll move to the US.... oh nevermind.

As far as a leader who's gay and does coke? Trudeau was pretty impressive, no?

[Edited on 11/16/2005 by simonus]

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Originally posted by Pierre the Great

Andre Boisclair wins PQ leadership vote

Well what do you think?

First, are you a federalist or a sovereignist?

Second, do you think Boisclair is a good choice for the party?

Third, do you think he could lead Quebec?

1st. I'm a federalist but I understand the sovereignists point of view.

2nd. I don't know much about him (mainly the sensational stuff: gay, did coke, represents the "new guard")

3rd. I think he could do an excellent job for Quebec.

On a hockey note, it will be bad for Habs fans if Quebec votes to separate. That would cause a very bad back lash in the rest of the country and mark the end of any commitment to French for almost all regions in rest of Canada. In particular, I doubt RDS and the french CBC would be available for me nor for most other Habs fans outside Quebec.

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Originally posted by simonus

As far as a leader who's gay and does coke? Trudeau was pretty impressive, no?

[Edited on 11/16/2005 by simonus]

I assume your point is that someone can be 'different' and/or flamboyant and be successful, although you inadvertently implied that Trudeau was gay and did coke, neither of which are true as far as I know. (A separate debate could be made on whether he was impressive, being the controversial figure he was. But we'll save that for another thread at another time).

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Well what do you think?

Think it was the wisest choice the PQ membership could have made. As in many other places, charisma goes a long way for Quebec politicians. He is the best bet to rally enthusiasm during a referendum.

First, are you a federalist or a sovereignist?

I'm (to a very large degree) a non-nationalist. Don't like to make my choices based on emotional responses or attachments that are counterproductive to the solution I'm trying to get reach. To the best of my abilities (which often lack), I try to be as rational as I can when making my mind up on important issues. I have never been convinced of the rational underpinnings of Quebec sovereignty and I have discussed this at length for years with an open mind (I would however be in favour of Quebec sovereignty if we were in the 60s and earlier). Same applies to my views with regards to Canada, there are a number of scenarios where I would be in favour of Canada becoming part of a larger binding political body.

Anyways, on the point of Quebec sovereignty and the discussions above of rallying Anglophone and Allophone support, I strongly believe that this will never happen in any significant manner. The Quebec sovereignty movement (as the vast majority of sovereignty movements) is quasi entirely based on nationalistic sentiment. It's a basic emotional response, association with what is considered by an individual as their "people" and a will of self-determination for that "people" (which is absolutely impossible, for very practical and/or very political reasons for all but the largest and strongest of "peoples"). Anglophones and Allophones who don't see themselves as part of that "people" (I know of all the new flavour "civic nationalism" thing, I just strongly believe that nationalism is much more deeply based....in the common history, myths, language, religion and general sense (both factual and mythical) of common past and future that the "civic nationalism" doesn't properly weight) will quite normally and expectedly not see the point in Quebec sovereignty. This will never really change, because, in cases like Quebec and many others, there is no rational base for wanting independence over remaining in Canada outside of the emotional realm. People don't want independence in this case unless they "feel" it and they won't "feel" it unless they identify themselves as part of the "people" and a lot goes into creating this identity in persons.

I for one think it's best to consciously try to take a step back and look at the rational for wanting something other than going with feelings evolved for completely different purposes (evolving strong feelings of group identity has huge evolutionary benefits, using them in this case without discrimination...not so beneficial).

Wow that was way too long, especially for a site dedicated to hockey!!!:) sorry.

Second, do you think Boisclair is a good choice for the party?

yes, see above.

Third, do you think he could lead Quebec?

I actually think the PQ has put up very strong governments and Boisclair appears to have many of the qualities to be a great leader for Quebec. Boisclair was at Harvard last year completing a masters in public administration. A good friend of mine was also there and they went to lunch frequently. From what I've heard and from the outside, he does seem to be a nice cut above your average politician, including the current Quebec Prime Minister IMHO.

Again too long sorry folks, hopefully nobody read this far:)

[Edited on 2005/11/16 by Rooster]

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Originally posted by Leafs Suck

Was this guy doing cocaine as a cabinet minister?

He has admitted to having done cocaine as a cabinet minister (don't know to what extent). Obviously quite an issue, but I'm not getting the impression that that will hurt him much with Quebec voters.

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I'm a Canadian first and foremost. Born in Quebec, raised in Ontario, moved back to Quebec.

The US elected a cokefiend and look whats happened. The FL, er PQ, is a party of facades, this'll be another one. Oh, look, pretty boy leader and he happens to be gay. Their agenda is to ruin people for the benefit of their pure laine minority. They can take their pure wool and shove it up the PQ.

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1st. I'm a federalist but I understand the sovereignists point of view.  

Well I don't so help me understand.

This has to be the only country in the world where people from all areas wanna seperate. Quebec, Newfoundland, the West... It never ends. Isn't anyone proud to be Canadian anymore? I find the reasons for "sepeartism" to be pety and I think they're just a bunch of whiners.

I remember the ignorant pieces of trash in Toronto saying during the last referendum that "what are you gonna call the montreal canadiens if quebec seperates?" well i bet anything montreal would have had their own referendum and voted to stay in canada. montreal is the greatest city in the greatest country in the world. they prove that english and french canadians can live together and not want to kill each other. maybe the rest of quebec can learn a lesson from them.

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Originally posted by Leafs Suck

Well I don't so help me understand.

This has to be the only country in the world where people from all areas wanna seperate. Quebec, Newfoundland, the West... It never ends. Isn't anyone proud to be Canadian anymore?

Well for one the only real 'i am proud to be a canadian' stuff on goes on in ontario. Second, the newfoundland thing is because it use to be separate from canada, and everyone makes fun of newfie's. Western Canada alienation started when Pierre Trudeau said "Why do I need to sell you wheat" and giving the bird to a bunch of protesters. And the way the federal elections go all you need to do is to win ontario and you are in power, which makes elections west of sudbury kind of pointless on the federal level. Then there is alberta, people there are nuts just ignore them. And Quebec is Quebec. Basically its like the U.S. when it comes to federal politics except when people get pissed they just throw around the lets separate from canada card to rile up support. Kind of like what the republicans due down south with the three g's god, guns and gays.

Another thing about Western Provincial Alienation is that they think to much attention goes to Quebec and that the west isnt given their due. But its also really goofy in the Western Provinces to however. Vancouver is super liberal. While Calgary is super conservative. Oh well thats what makes Canada fun.

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Originally posted by Leafs Suck

1st. I'm a federalist but I understand the sovereignists point of view.

Well I don't so help me understand.

This has to be the only country in the world where people from all areas wanna seperate. Quebec, Newfoundland, the West... It never ends. Isn't anyone proud to be Canadian anymore? I find the reasons for "sepeartism" to be pety and I think they're just a bunch of whiners.

Lots of countries (including in the western world) have regions that want to seperate. Canada is a bit particular as, as far as I know, it is by far the country that take the most permissive stance on the idea of its possible breakup. My sense is that this comes from an overall low sense of national identity.....or too great a sense that whatever group wants to self-determine, it can.

Of course, Quebec is the only region where nationalistic allegences are realy profondly divided (in the sense that seperation is a real possibility). Many people in that province see themselves as a distict "people" much more than, say, Albertans. Seperatism (fuelled by nationalism) is, sadly, purely an emotional response....not a rational one (ie. Albertans would have better rational arguments for wanting out than Quebec would....but the sense of "belonging" is in the end all that unfortunately matters). Kidda wish people would explore what motivates their actions and beliefs more. The world would be a liitle less dangerous place.

As for "helping understand" why Quebecois would want to seperate: the feeling is akin to what you may perhaps experience at the serious thought of Canada merging into the US or France, with it's federal capital now in Washington or Paris. Anyone of those two actions might actually make sense and be overall beneficial, but most people's reactions would likely be "well no that would not work, we are just too different from them and they greatly outnumber us making "us" irrelevant".

[Edited on 2005/11/18 by Rooster]

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Originally posted by Pierre the Great
Originally posted by Leafs Suck

Well I don't so help me understand.

This has to be the only country in the world where people from all areas wanna seperate. Quebec, Newfoundland, the West... It never ends. Isn't anyone proud to be Canadian anymore?

Well for one the only real 'i am proud to be a canadian' stuff on goes on in ontario. Second, the newfoundland thing is because it use to be separate from canada, and everyone makes fun of newfie's. Western Canada alienation started when Pierre Trudeau said "Why do I need to sell you wheat" and giving the bird to a bunch of protesters. And the way the federal elections go all you need to do is to win ontario and you are in power, which makes elections west of sudbury kind of pointless on the federal level. Then there is alberta, people there are nuts just ignore them. And Quebec is Quebec. Basically its like the U.S. when it comes to federal politics except when people get pissed they just throw around the lets separate from canada card to rile up support. Kind of like what the republicans due down south with the three g's god, guns and gays.

Another thing about Western Provincial Alienation is that they think to much attention goes to Quebec and that the west isnt given their due. But its also really goofy in the Western Provinces to however. Vancouver is super liberal. While Calgary is super conservative. Oh well thats what makes Canada fun.

Sorry, I don't agree with a lot of your allegations and don't quite see your main point. Is it that people all over the country want to seperate for their own little grievances (which often seem to have begun from anecdotal events) and Quebec is just playing bluff?

[Edited on 2005/11/18 by Rooster]

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