2021 NHL General Discussion

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

31 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I shudder to think how bad we would be have been this year  without the additions of Toffoli and Anderson.  An upward trajectory requires the development of Suzuki and KK into bonafide NHL centers,  it still may happen. 

 

Suzuki will be fine, and KK will probably become a quality 3rd line C like Lars Eller. CC may develop into a front-line W, or at least a top-6 sniper. Romanov may evolve into a top-pairing guy (although his miniscule point production does not inspire confidence that he'll ever approach star-level).

 

The problem is that that isn't enough. The D is ancient. Price and Weber, the franchise cornerstones, are done. Petry won't have too much longer as a star-level D-man either. Basically, we're looking at a one-step-forward, one-step-back scenario for the foreseeable future IMHO.

 

Of course, this pessimistic reading doesn't factor in huge off-season moves of the sort we saw this year. But barring some really savvy GMing, I think the combination of declining veterans and an insufficiently-critical mass of impact prospects means sustained mediocrity is our likeliest future.

[alfredoh2009]

8 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Suzuki will be fine, and KK will probably become a quality 3rd line C like Lars Eller. CC may develop into a front-line W, or at least a top-6 sniper. Romanov may evolve into a top-pairing guy (although his miniscule point production does not inspire confidence that he'll ever approach star-level).

 

The problem is that that isn't enough. The D is ancient. Price and Weber, the franchise cornerstones, are done. Petry won't have too much longer as a star-level D-man either. Basically, we're looking at a one-step-forward, one-step-back scenario for the foreseeable future IMHO.

 

Of course, this pessimistic reading doesn't factor in huge off-season moves of the sort we saw this year. But barring some really savvy GMing, I think the combination of declining veterans and an insufficiently-critical mass of impact prospects means sustained mediocrity is our likeliest future.

I think that the Habs expiring contracts at the NHL and AHL level and the salary structure provide an opportunity to whoever the Habs GM may be to re-model the team.

 

The expansion draft and the regular draft provide added opportunities this summer. 
 

The team improved from the previous season, KK, Romanov and Suzuki showed they are NHL caliber and Evans was a good surprise

 

I think the future is promising through my half-full glass

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

12 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Suzuki will be fine, and KK will probably become a quality 3rd line C like Lars Eller. CC may develop into a front-line W, or at least a top-6 sniper. Romanov may evolve into a top-pairing guy (although his miniscule point production does not inspire confidence that he'll ever approach star-level).

 

The problem is that that isn't enough. The D is ancient. Price and Weber, the franchise cornerstones, are done. Petry won't have too much longer as a star-level D-man either. Basically, we're looking at a one-step-forward, one-step-back scenario for the foreseeable future IMHO.

 

Of course, this pessimistic reading doesn't factor in huge off-season moves of the sort we saw this year. But barring some really savvy GMing, I think the combination of declining veterans and an insufficiently-critical mass of impact prospects means sustained mediocrity is our likeliest future.

 

I think  the window of winning while Weber is in his prime is pretty much gone. I still think Price can still have 4-5 quality years as many goalies have played well into their late 30's, look at Mike Smith this year, he is having a great year despite starting the year on the injury list. 

 

It's easy to be pessimistic and cynical but for me the question is what is the right plan going forward?  I am in the rebuild camp like I have stated before but you also need a few  quality veterans  who provide leadership and are respected so you don't end up in a situation like Edmonton was in years ago when young immature guys like Taylor Hall were running the show. 

[Prime Minister Koivu]

6 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I think  the window of winning while Weber is in his prime is pretty much gone. I still think Price can still have 4-5 quality years as many goalies have played well into their late 30's, look at Mike Smith this year, he is having a great year despite starting the year on the injury list. 

 

It's easy to be pessimistic and cynical but for me the question is what is the right plan going forward?  I am in the rebuild camp like I have stated before but you also need a few  quality veterans  who provide leadership and are respected so you don't end up in a situation like Edmonton was in years ago when young immature guys like Taylor Hall were running the show. 

Our best prospect in Laval is Poehling and he is projected to be a third or fourth liner. Caufield will likely be a top 6 winger. 

 

We don’t have a Dman any where close to the NHL ready yet. 
 

If we give an honest evaluation of Kotkaniemi does anyone see a first line centre there? No way, maybe third line as Cucumber said. Suzuki maybe a second line centre and neither are going to be stars. Unless a massive growth spurt happens to their development. 
 

This team needs to sell off vets and rebuild or retool with trades/UFA. 

The old core needs to go and new core isn’t ready to be a core yet. Bergevin should have been all in this year. If that Dman wasn’t available then get a cheap Hall as plan B. 
 

This team is a mess, even with our highly rated prospect pool and I don’t want a proven dumbass that had one good off season in 10 years making the decisions needed to fix our team. 

 

[tomh009]

2 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Our best prospect in Laval is Poehling and he is projected to be a third or fourth liner.

I respectfully disagree with that.

 

And Brian's prospect ranking has him as #8, albeit done before the start of the season. He may be ready before some of the higher-rated prospects, though.

https://www.habsworld.net/2021/04/2020-21-habsworld-prospect-rankings-6-10/

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

2 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Our best prospect in Laval is Poehling and he is projected to be a third or fourth liner. Caufield will likely be a top 6 winger. 

 

We don’t have a Dman any where close to the NHL ready yet. 
 

If we give an honest evaluation of Kotkaniemi does anyone see a first line centre there? No way, maybe third line as Cucumber said. Suzuki maybe a second line centre and neither are going to be stars. Unless a massive growth spurt happens to their development. 
 

This team needs to sell off vets and rebuild or retool with trades/UFA. 

The old core needs to go and new core isn’t ready to be a core yet. Bergevin should have been all in this year. If that Dman wasn’t available then get a cheap Hall as plan B. 
 

This team is a mess, even with our highly rated prospect pool and I don’t want a proven dumbass that had one good off season in 10 years making the decisions needed to fix our team. 

 

 

Going all in this year would have been a complete waste as there was no trade that would have made them a contender and it would have meant giving up a chunk of the future. Taylor Hall was NOT going to make them a contender. 

 

I agree about trades and signing the right UFA where it makes sense. Toffoli was likely the best free agent signing of last summer and the Anderson trade was a good one and they are both young enough that they will be here for a while. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

3 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

I respectfully disagree with that.

 

And Brian's prospect ranking has him as #8, albeit done before the start of the season. He may be ready before some of the higher-rated prospects, though.

https://www.habsworld.net/2021/04/2020-21-habsworld-prospect-rankings-6-10/

 

I was looking at the rankings and trying to figure out who will be 1 - 5, I assume Caufield, Primeau, Norlinder , Guhle?  Who am I missing? 

[sbhatt]

53 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Suzuki will be fine, and KK will probably become a quality 3rd line C like Lars Eller. CC may develop into a front-line W, or at least a top-6 sniper. Romanov may evolve into a top-pairing guy (although his miniscule point production does not inspire confidence that he'll ever approach star-level).

 

The problem is that that isn't enough. The D is ancient. Price and Weber, the franchise cornerstones, are done. Petry won't have too much longer as a star-level D-man either. Basically, we're looking at a one-step-forward, one-step-back scenario for the foreseeable future IMHO.

 

Of course, this pessimistic reading doesn't factor in huge off-season moves of the sort we saw this year. But barring some really savvy GMing, I think the combination of declining veterans and an insufficiently-critical mass of impact prospects means sustained mediocrity is our likeliest future.

 

 

Very solid take on the state of affairs.  I think along similar lines, although my view of KK is trending lower; his developing into a GOOD 3rd line C no longer seems to be a guarantee.  He's still falling all over the place looking like Bambbi on ice, and he loses/mishandles the puck a lot.  Price and Weber are indeed done; we can only hope that both decide they've had enough of the NHL grind and retire well before those god-awful contracts run much longer. This team has major holes, and unfortunately, it will be hard to fill them until we find a way to be rid of Price and Weber and their horrific cap hits.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

5 minutes ago, sbhatt said:

 

 

Very solid take on the state of affairs.  I think along similar lines, although my view of KK is trending lower; his developing into a GOOD 3rd line C no longer seems to be a guarantee.  He's still falling all over the place looking like Bambbi on ice, and he loses/mishandles the puck a lot.  Price and Weber are indeed done; we can only hope that both decide they've had enough of the NHL grind and retire well before those god-awful contracts run much longer. This team has major holes, and unfortunately, it will be hard to fill them until we find a way to be rid of Price and Weber and their horrific cap hits.

 

I am a long way from giving up on KK, he is still only 20, a lot of people seem to forget that since he has been here since he was 18 which was a mistake. He should have been playing 20 minutes a game somewhere else. 

[Commandant]

27 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Our best prospect in Laval is Poehling and he is projected to be a third or fourth liner. Caufield will likely be a top 6 winger. 

 

We don’t have a Dman any where close to the NHL ready yet. 
 

If we give an honest evaluation of Kotkaniemi does anyone see a first line centre there? No way, maybe third line as Cucumber said. Suzuki maybe a second line centre and neither are going to be stars. Unless a massive growth spurt happens to their development. 
 

This team needs to sell off vets and rebuild or retool with trades/UFA. 

The old core needs to go and new core isn’t ready to be a core yet. Bergevin should have been all in this year. If that Dman wasn’t available then get a cheap Hall as plan B. 
 

This team is a mess, even with our highly rated prospect pool and I don’t want a proven dumbass that had one good off season in 10 years making the decisions needed to fix our team. 

 

 

Disagree. 

 

The best prospect in Laval is Ylonen and he could very well be a top 6 winger. 

 

On Defence, Josh Brook, Cale Fleury and Mattias Norlinder are all candidates to be on the team by the end of next season, or the start of 2022-23.

 

Could Suzuki and Kotkaniemi be #1 and #2 centres... .I don't see why not.  Why are we writing them off given their ages?  Seems silly to set ceilings on players so young. 

[GHT120]

1 hour ago, Habsfan89 said:

Umm look at last 8 years if he hasn't been fired yet it isn't going to happen under Molson. 

Can't wait for season end news conference from these 2. Molson --I have the out most confidence in Bergevin he's doing a great job.

Bergevin-- I believe I have done everything I could to put a wining team on the ice..... Its hard to make trades for star players in this league without giving up a lot.... we had key player injuries all year which hurt us... Out key players under preformed its in between their ears👂....  Blah ..... Blah..... Blah.... Blah 

 

Stop me if you heard this from these 2 before. 

Wash

Rince

Repeat

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

4 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I am a long way from giving up on KK, he is still only 20, a lot of people seem to forget that since he has been here since he was 18 which was a mistake. He should have been playing 20 minutes a game somewhere else. 

 

Yeah, well, everyone is cowabunga with enthusiasm over doing exactly the same thing with Caulfield. Just saying.

 

What I notice about KK is this. During the bubble he was really hitting people - and doing so with real impact. In short, he was playing a power game. I understand that that may not be physically sustainable over a whole season. But it seems, at least to my eye, that this physical element has been more or less forgotten altogether. He needs to get back to that. Physicality seemed to open up offensive opportunities for him; he appears to be a guy where those two components go hand in hand.

[dlbalr]

25 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

I was looking at the rankings and trying to figure out who will be 1 - 5, I assume Caufield, Primeau, Norlinder , Guhle?  Who am I missing? 

 

Romanov as he had yet to play in the NHL at the time I sat down and did the rankings.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

3 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

Romanov as he had yet to play in the NHL at the time I sat down and did the rankings.

 

Thank you. I was racking my brain trying to figure it out. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

10 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Yeah, well, everyone is cowabunga with enthusiasm over doing exactly the same thing with Caulfield. Just saying.

 

What I notice about KK is this. During the bubble he was really hitting people - and doing so with real impact. In short, he was playing a power game. I understand that that may not be physically sustainable over a whole season. But it seems, at least to my eye, that this physical element has been more or less forgotten altogether. He needs to get back to that. Physicality seemed to open up offensive opportunities for him; he appears to be a guy where those two components go hand in hand.

 

I think KK is starting to feel more confident playing a physical game as he is much stronger now.  Caulfield is 20 and has been in college for 2 years, much much closer to being ready than KK was at 18. 

[alfredoh2009]

37 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Disagree. 

 

The best prospect in Laval is Ylonen and he could very well be a top 6 winger. 

 

On Defence, Josh Brook, Cale Fleury and Mattias Norlinder are all candidates to be on the team by the end of next season, or the start of 2022-23.

 

Could Suzuki and Kotkaniemi be #1 and #2 centres... .I don't see why not.  Why are we writing them off given their ages?  Seems silly to set ceilings on players so young. 

I also like Ylonen, the few time I watched a Laval game he was easy to spot doing good plays

 

remembering how Danault grew in maturity to become the Habs 1C , I am confident Kotkaniemi and Suzuki can get there

[DON]

20-21 KK = 20-21 Eller in icetime/offense, but KK is 20 whereas Larry had 17pts in full season at 20, then had 16g season at 21.

So assume is safe to say that 3rd line centre is worst KK will ever be.

[Habsfan89]

17 minutes ago, DON said:

20-21 KK = 20-21 Eller in icetime/offense, but KK is 20 whereas Larry had 17pts in full season at 20, then had 16g season at 21.

So assume is safe to say that 3rd line centre is worst KK will ever be.

Yeah thank god we never drafted that guy Brody. 😔 what a mistake that was. 

[GHT120]

46 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Yeah thank god we never drafted that guy Brody. 😔 what a mistake that was. 

*** IF *** there is to be regret, mine is Quinn Hughes ... young ... 22/23 TOI ... puck-moving ... LHD ... sounds like what we've been wanting for a Weber partner.

[tomh009]

2 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

*** IF *** there is to be regret, mine is Quinn Hughes ... young ... 22/23 TOI ... puck-moving ... LHD ... sounds like what we've been wanting for a Weber partner.

Yes. I would much rather have Hughes than Tkachuk.

 

But I fully understand why they wanted to draft a centre. And while we don't know what Kotkaniemi will end up being, he's far from being a failed draft pick (which we, as well as other teams, have had plenty of). I'm confident he is capable of significantly more than Poehling, who is generally seen as a 3C ceiling.

[GHT120]

3 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Yes. I would much rather have Hughes than Tkachuk.

 

But I fully understand why they wanted to draft a centre. And while we don't know what Kotkaniemi will end up being, he's far from being a failed draft pick (which we, as well as other teams, have had plenty of). I'm confident he is capable of significantly more than Poehling, who is generally seen as a 3C ceiling.

I tend to agree ... but 22 spots earlier I would also certainly hope so ... I understand drafting numbers of players at a position hoping one makes its ... however that is feasible because the further one goes into the draft the less legitimate differentiation there is between a handful  (or more) of players at each pick ... but earlier in the draft I remain an advocate of Best Player Available ... was not certain then that KK was the BPA, and remain so ... but also know a other couple of years are needed for us to truly know. 

[tomh009]

46 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

I tend to agree ... but 22 spots earlier I would also certainly hope so ... I understand drafting numbers of players at a position hoping one makes its ... however that is feasible because the further one goes into the draft the less legitimate differentiation there is between a handful  (or more) of players at each pick ... but earlier in the draft I remain an advocate of Best Player Available ... was not certain then that KK was the BPA, and remain so ... but also know a other couple of years are needed for us to truly know. 

I understand and generally agree with a BPA policy. However, we had an organizational need for centres and getting top-six centres on trades is not easy, either, so they decided that the positional need should influence the selection.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

3 hours ago, tomh009 said:

I respectfully disagree with that.

 

And Brian's prospect ranking has him as #8, albeit done before the start of the season. He may be ready before some of the higher-rated prospects, though.

https://www.habsworld.net/2021/04/2020-21-habsworld-prospect-rankings-6-10/

 

I didn’t explain myself well at all but I meant Laval players ready to play nhl now. Your point and Commandants point about the prospect pool in general is decent but they aren’t nhl ready and will be not at the same time. 
 

 

3 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Disagree. 

 

The best prospect in Laval is Ylonen and he could very well be a top 6 winger. 

 

On Defence, Josh Brook, Cale Fleury and Mattias Norlinder are all candidates to be on the team by the end of next season, or the start of 2022-23.

 

Could Suzuki and Kotkaniemi be #1 and #2 centres... .I don't see why not.  Why are we writing them off given their ages?  Seems silly to set ceilings on players so young. 

Im a KK fan and I think his defensive game is outstanding and when he plays physical he is great. His point production isn’t great and the difference between his current point production and 1st line centre production is HUGE. KK would need an incredible upward trajectory to get there. Is it possible? Of course but not likely. 
 

Suzuki will likely be Plex. I made that comparison before and I see it more and more. A creative centre that can pass and shoot, good for 70 points and defensively strong. He should get here and possibly more. 
 

Danault can’t put up points either. We have talked and agreed that what he does is vital to the team but he is light on points. 
 

We need a centre that can put up points. 

[Commandant]

A 70 point, defensively strong #1 centre is enough to be the number 1 on a cup winner.... see St. Louis and Boston.  Heck Jonathan Toews doesn't have many seasons above 80 points and neither does Anze Kopitar.  Yes they have a couple, but most of the time they are 70 point seasons, and they have 5 cups between them as number 1 centres. 

 

The fact is that there is only one McDavid, and then the number of guys who can get 100 points in a season falls off... MacKinnon, Matthews maybe.... who else?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

KK is definitely not a failed pick. He seems sure to have a long career as an NHL regular.

 

I'm not one to second-guess individual draft picks much. Still, when your organization gets a #3 overall pick, you really hope that pick will become an impact player. We've had two of those #3s over Bergevin's tenure, and neither comes close. One was a disaster, the other (KK) does not inspire confidence that he'll ascend to that level.

 

It's a pity. And it all too tellingly fits the Habs' overall drafting profile: lots of singles, here and there a double, hardly ever any triples, zero home runs.