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Into the Abyss: the Carey Price debate


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2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:


So you believe that Luongo and Price are on Roy’s level? 

No (but also wouldnt put Roy or anyone on Hasek's level of dominance at his peak, he was the best i ever saw.) 

But both Luongo-Price have done well with fairly weak teams, even on horrible teams Luongo has solid save%.

 

If we could have any current NHL goaltender not including the cap would you pick Price?

No, i dont think so, but then again i dont know other goalies well at all. But, are a couple supposedly rated higher in last couple years.

 

 

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The problem with suggesting that Price is merely average, is that he is not easily replaceable. “His reputation of the past” is what it is and therefore anyone new coming in, will indeed have his shoes to fill. It is entirely possible that after Price leaves, we turn out to have a revolving door of goalies until the next “one” joins the organization.

 

Similar to Commandant, if I were asked to pick one goalie in the league to represent my team, Price would indeed be on the very short list with Bishop and Vasilevskiy. I’d even choose Price over Rask. 
 

If you were to tell me that there were a trade opportunity involving Price+ for a Bishop caliber goalie+ then I would love to consider it. On the other hand, I am not in agreement that Allen + Primeau would be a better situation than we are in now, simply because we would have cap space to spend. Price needs to be replaced by an elite in order to even consider this conversation.
 

Cap space has not been an issue, and so why make it one? It really hasn’t been a big deal to have Carey on the books for $10,000,000. It’s only been an issue that we have not spent available organizational cap space.  This year, in its so far short span, has demonstrated that we would have the capability to have a rather potent offence even while spending that much on a starting goaltender.
 

It’s certainly an east moment to pick on Price, and those who are will have the voice in their head saying “there’s been many moments we could have picked on him recently”, but I have confidence in Price having the capability of helping a strong team win the Stanley Cup. 

 

He’s our guy, and should he falter, it will be nice to have a reliable backup who can step in and play well. Good problem to have! Similar to Boston, Vegas, and even Khudobin in Dallas last year. 

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5 hours ago, DON said:

Luongo 2.52 0.919, 489w

Price     2.50 0.917, 352w

Roy       2.54 0.910, 551w

I'd just like to point out that Roy played a good portion of his career in the 80's and early 90's when teams were scoring

350-400 goals a year!

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3 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

 
No that is not what I suggest. 
 

Im saying that a rookie plus vet back up along with 2 good wingers that Prices cap hit would allow us to add is far better than the performance of Price 

 

And i disagree that a rookie goalie and jake allen is enough to get you through the playoffs...  even with two more good wingers (who play on which line exactly anyways?)

 

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5 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:


So you believe that Luongo and Price are on Roy’s level? 

 

If we could have any current NHL goaltender not including the cap would you pick Price?

 

 

 

If we're talking about Roy's level being Hall of Fame level, then yes. Luongo played great hockey on a lot of terrible teams that inflated his career GAA. Put him on a half decent team and he very well could have racked up a career on the level of Roy and Brodeur. The same could be said of Price. He's played on a team that was never a serious playoff threat.  

 

5 years ago, yes, I would have picked Price. But he is no longer an elite NHL goaltender. He has been an average goaltender two out of the last three years and thus far this season is playing below average.  I don't know that he is even a top 10 goalie in the NHL at this point. There are a lot of NHL goalies I would take over him at this point in time.

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11 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

And i disagree that a rookie goalie and jake allen is enough to get you through the playoffs...  even with two more good wingers (who play on which line exactly anyways?)

 


Fair point about Allen and Primeau being enough for the playoffs because they might not be. Redwings did it successfully but they were stacked. 
 

The two wingers comment was a loose idea at Tatar’s spot and Armia’s spot - wether we resign them or similar or perhaps we get a true# 1 LD

 

Point is that the cap savings are used for needs. 
 

To CK 

 

Our cap issues begin next season.   
 

We need to resign Armia, Tatar, Danault and some young guys will need a raise before Prices contract is up. 
 

We simply can’t afford everything. 
 

We could expose Allen to kraken but I’m not sure they bite. I bet they would bite on Price. 
 

Keeping Price and Allen do keep us strong for 2 more years no question. 
 

Maybe we let Tatar walk and put in Caufield. Depending on what Danault demands we may not be able to sign Armia. Maybe Poehling takes his spot?

 

My posts aren’t anti Price. I see a cap problem and I see Price as the way out - long shot that Price would allow it anyway. 

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Luongo tarnished his legacy somewhat by getting ventilated a couple of times in the 2011 Finals, losing the Cup and finishing with a GAA over 4.00 and having a save % of .773 in Boston. I am NOT saying the loss was his fault, just that he was erratic in that franchise-defining series for the Canuckleheads. And this might be unfair, but still - how you perform when you have your shot at glory is important in determining a guy's legend.

 

Great goalie, though, all the same.

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8 hours ago, DON said:

 

Agree 100%.  Hasek carried his team to the finals. Price might have, if it wasn’t for Kreider.  But, like the old saying goes, if my aunt had balls, she’d be my uncle.

The teams in front of Price have not been very good until this year, but he has never been Hasek dominant- but than who has??

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6 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

The problem with suggesting that Price is merely average, is that he is not easily replaceable. “His reputation of the past” is what it is and therefore anyone new coming in, will indeed have his shoes to fill. It is entirely possible that after Price leaves, we turn out to have a revolving door of goalies until the next “one” joins the organization.

 

Similar to Commandant, if I were asked to pick one goalie in the league to represent my team, Price would indeed be on the very short list with Bishop and Vasilevskiy. I’d even choose Price over Rask. 
 

If you were to tell me that there were a trade opportunity involving Price+ for a Bishop caliber goalie+ then I would love to consider it. On the other hand, I am not in agreement that Allen + Primeau would be a better situation than we are in now, simply because we would have cap space to spend. Price needs to be replaced by an elite in order to even consider this conversation.
 

Cap space has not been an issue, and so why make it one? It really hasn’t been a big deal to have Carey on the books for $10,000,000. It’s only been an issue that we have not spent available organizational cap space.  This year, in its so far short span, has demonstrated that we would have the capability to have a rather potent offence even while spending that much on a starting goaltender.
 

It’s certainly an east moment to pick on Price, and those who are will have the voice in their head saying “there’s been many moments we could have picked on him recently”, but I have confidence in Price having the capability of helping a strong team win the Stanley Cup. 

 

He’s our guy, and should he falter, it will be nice to have a reliable backup who can step in and play well. Good problem to have! Similar to Boston, Vegas, and even Khudobin in Dallas last year. 

I would NEVER take Bishop over Price.  

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6 hours ago, Habsfan said:

I'd just like to point out that Roy played a good portion of his career in the 80's and early 90's when teams were scoring

350-400 goals a year!

100% agree.  But Roy also wa not focused through the entire season. Have petiole forgot the whole Hayward-Roy controversy?? Or the calls to have red light racicot to start ahead of Roy??  The thing with Roy was, come playoff time he was usually in the zone - except when playing Neely and the Bruins, or pulling the Statue of Liberty stunt. Price has only had one really truly dominant playoffs where he outplayed the other goalie - and than Kreider took him out.

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5 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Luongo tarnished his legacy somewhat by getting ventilated a couple of times in the 2011 Finals, losing the Cup and finishing with a GAA over 4.00 and having a save % of .773 in Boston. I am NOT saying the loss was his fault, just that he was erratic in that franchise-defining series for the Canuckleheads. And this might be unfair, but still - how you perform when you have your shot at glory is important in determining a guy's legend.

 

Great goalie, though, all the same.

Great goalie, but fragile mentally, until he became more relaxed at the end of his career. I still remember the idiotic pump my tires line feom the playoffs- was as bad as when Subban d

said he is not paid to score goals.  Smart players know when to keep their mouth shut and so their talking on the ice to boast the confidence of the team- not deflate it by saying he needs his tires pumped!

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31 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

100% agree.  But Roy also wa not focused through the entire season. Have petiole forgot the whole Hayward-Roy controversy?? Or the calls to have red light racicot to start ahead of Roy??  The thing with Roy was, come playoff time he was usually in the zone - except when playing Neely and the Bruins, or pulling the Statue of Liberty stunt. Price has only had one really truly dominant playoffs where he outplayed the other goalie - and than Kreider took him out.

Just to be clear... I know of nobody who wanted Racicot over Roy...

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38 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

Just to be clear... I know of nobody who wanted Racicot over Roy...

The year that Roy went down with appendicitis, prior to that Roy was not doing well and media was calling for Racicot to take over. There was even a survey for fans.

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8 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

The year that Roy went down with appendicitis, prior to that Roy was not doing well and media was calling for Racicot to take over. There was even a survey for fans.

Sadly, this really happened. That’s why we are called fans, short for “fanatics” and not, rosees- “rational observers of a sports entertainment entity”.

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12 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I would NEVER take Bishop over Price.  

I doubt he was suggesting Bishop (or as he said a Bishop calibre goalie) goalie over Price one for one  ... he said Price+ for Bishop+ ... rather, that if the totality of the deal made the team better (perhaps including consideration of cap space) then he would consider it as he felt a Bishop calibre goaltender is capable of winning for the Habs

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After reading this thread, I ask myself:

what is the Habs plan to draft and develop the next generational goalie once Price retires or is traded?

 

Is Primeau "it" ?!

 

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16 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I would NEVER take Bishop over Price.  

That’s fine. Statistically, Bishop is the best goalie in the NHL over the past 5 years amongst goalies who have played a meaningful amount of games, though. 
 

I also said I would consider a trade for “a Bishop caliber goalie+ for Price+“


Never say never. Should whatever piece comes with the “Bishop caliber goalie” be enticing, I’d prefer that route than simply going with Allen and a completely unproven backup over Price and his cap space. Sounds terrible to me.

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37 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

After reading this thread, I ask myself:

what is the Habs plan to draft and develop the next generational goalie once Price retires or is traded?

 

Is Primeau "it" ?!

You can't really plan to draft an elite goalie. Draft-eligible goalies strong enough to make it to the top of the draft are rarer than hens' teeth, and you can't possibly know that you have the pick to get that player anyway. And, even so, there is no guarantee that they will turn out to be elite.

  • Visentin (29th in 2010) has played 2 games
  • Vasilevskiy (19th in 2012) has played 269 and is legit
  • Samsonov (22nd in 2015) has played 28 and looks promising
  • Oettinger (26th in 2017) has played 4
  • Knight (13th in 2019) and Askarov (11th in 2020) are still TBD

That's it for first-round goalie picks since 2010, unless I missed someone. And even drafting someone in 2021 would probably mean 2026 or thereabouts before they are ready.

 

For the Habs, Primeau is clearly the top candidate. McNiven and Demchenko are more likely to topout at a backup goalie level, assuming they do become NHL regulars. Same for Lindgren, and his odds are even longer.

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52 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

You can't really plan to draft an elite goalie ... For the Habs, Primeau is clearly the top candidate. McNiven and Demchenko are more likely to topout at a backup goalie level, assuming they do become NHL regulars. Same for Lindgren, and his odds are even longer.

 

2020 draft pick Jacob Dobeš is having a good second season with the Omaha Lancers ... top Sv% in the USHL and 2nd best GAA ... committed to Ohio State for next season ... BIG kid ... 6'5" and currently 197 pounds ... likely to fill out under a NCAA conditioning program ... worth at least keeping an eye on with fingers crossed ... turns 20 in May, so likely 4-5 years away from turning pro unless he is just lights out good in Columbus for the Buckeyes.

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1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

You can't really plan to draft an elite goalie. Draft-eligible goalies strong enough to make it to the top of the draft are rarer than hens' teeth, and you can't possibly know that you have the pick to get that player anyway. And, even so, there is no guarantee that they will turn out to be elite.

  • Visentin (29th in 2010) has played 2 games
  • Vasilevskiy (19th in 2012) has played 269 and is legit
  • Samsonov (22nd in 2015) has played 28 and looks promising
  • Oettinger (26th in 2017) has played 4
  • Knight (13th in 2019) and Askarov (11th in 2020) are still TBD

That's it for first-round goalie picks since 2010, unless I missed someone. And even drafting someone in 2021 would probably mean 2026 or thereabouts before they are ready.

 

For the Habs, Primeau is clearly the top candidate. McNiven and Demchenko are more likely to topout at a backup goalie level, assuming they do become NHL regulars. Same for Lindgren, and his odds are even longer.

 

You missed Malcolm Subban, who is shit.

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

2020 draft pick Jacob Dobeš is having a good second season with the Omaha Lancers ... top Sv% in the USHL and 2nd best GAA ... committed to Ohio State for next season ... BIG kid ... 6'5" and currently 197 pounds ... likely to fill out under a NCAA conditioning program ... worth at least keeping an eye on with fingers crossed ... turns 20 in May, so likely 4-5 years away from turning pro unless he is just lights out good in Columbus for the Buckeyes.

He's indeed good at USHL level. But that's not a guarantee of NHL success for any player, and especially not for goalies.

 

And that's not to say that we shouldn't draft promising goalie prospects. But as has been said many times, goalie prospect evaluation is voodoo, and it would be super risky to count on a single prospect.

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2 hours ago, tomh009 said:

He's indeed good at USHL level. But that's not a guarantee of NHL success for any player, and especially not for goalies.

 

And that's not to say that we shouldn't draft promising goalie prospects. But as has been said many times, goalie prospect evaluation is voodoo, and it would be super risky to count on a single prospect.

 

Which is why I said "keep an eye on" ... seems like a worthwhile try with a 5th round pick.

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

Which is why I said "keep an eye on" ... seems like a worthwhile try with a 5th round pick.

Late rounds, yes -- Primeau was a 7th-round pick and the rest of our goalie prospects (Demchenko, Lindgren and McNiven) were undrafted, if I recall correctly.

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8 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

You missed Malcolm Subban, who is shit.

@Commandant do you have something on draft eligible goalies, or prospects, on you site?

If not, what would you recommend? 
 

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