Jump to content

Into the Abyss: the Carey Price debate


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:


This doesn’t mean Price is out for a while just that Allen is starting tomorrow. It also doesn’t mean that Price won’t be out for a bit

Wouldn't shock me if Allen starts Tuesday as well ... giving Price at least a week sans games

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one will argue that Price is currently playing well. 

 

However, I don't think this team is going anywhere with Allen as a number 1 goalie.  I don't think he can handle that workload and I think this has been proven in the past. 

 

This team still will go as far as Price is able to take it.  Which means you need Price to play better.  The goal has to be not to replace Price, but how do you get him back to being Carey Price.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Commandant said:

No one will argue that Price is currently playing well. 

 

However, I don't think this team is going anywhere with Allen as a number 1 goalie.  I don't think he can handle that workload and I think this has been proven in the past. 

 

This team still will go as far as Price is able to take it.  Which means you need Price to play better.  The goal has to be not to replace Price, but how do you get him back to being Carey Price.


I agree

 

While that happens with Price we can ride Allen and if he does crap out then we give Price another shot - competition. Regardless we need both playing well. 
 

I still believe we will turn this around and crush in the playoffs and I really want the dialed in, not dopey, invincible Price in the playoffs 

 

Next year I want him gone to save 10.5 million and we’ll figure goal out through trade, UFA, internal. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

... Next year I want him gone to save 10.5 million and we’ll figure goal out through trade, UFA, internal. 

 

Any ideas on how to convince him to waive his NMC?  Think the best bet is his wife wanting to be closer to her parents near Seattle.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

Any ideas on how to convince him to waive his NMC?  Think the best bet is his wife wanting to be closer to her parents near Seattle.

 
All you can do is ask. 
 

Is he sick of the pressure and crazy in Montreal? Is his wife?

 

Do the Kraken even want him?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

 
All you can do is ask. 
 

Is he sick of the pressure and crazy in Montreal? Is his wife?

 

Do the Kraken even want him?

 

The Kraken probably will want him. He is a huge name in the sport. Seattle is a competitive sport market, so adding a guy of his profile will probably help from a marketing POV. And in hockey terms, the Luongo precedent might entice the GM into think it realistic that Price recover his form in a lower-pressure milieu close to home.

 

How the Habs are supposed to replace him as #1G is a whole other question. We know that Allen is not a legit #1A but rather an elite #1B. So we will then need a goalie who can play lots of games at a high level. Primeau is not a serious proposal. So we’re talking either trade (costing assets) or else a UFA goalie. As I’ve mused in other threads, it wouldn’t be Price’s 10.5 mil on the cap we recover; it will be 10.5 minus whatever it costs to pay Allen on a longer-term deal plus whatever it costs to sign a UFA goalie. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The Kraken probably will want him. He is a huge name in the sport. Seattle is a competitive sport market, so adding a guy of his profile will probably help from a marketing POV. And in hockey terms, the Luongo precedent might entice the GM into think it realistic that Price recover his form in a lower-pressure milieu close to home.

 

How the Habs are supposed to replace him as #1G is a whole other question. We know that Allen is not a legit #1A but rather an elite #1B. So we will then need a goalie who can play lots of games at a high level. Primeau is not a serious proposal. So we’re talking either trade (costing assets) or else a UFA goalie. As I’ve mused in other threads, it wouldn’t be Price’s 10.5 mil on the cap we recover; it will be 10.5 minus whatever it costs to pay Allen on a longer-term deal plus whatever it costs to sign a UFA goalie. 


True but it won’t cost 10.5 and Price isn’t Price anymore. 
 

Rough patch or not Price’s stats put him 60th in the league. If Price can’t be relied upon why not try Allen? 
 

Price can’t do it anyway 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:


True but it won’t cost 10.5 and Price isn’t Price anymore. 
 

Rough patch or not Price’s stats put him 60th in the league. If Price can’t be relied upon why not try Allen? 
 

Price can’t do it anyway 

 

I would say there is a better chance of Price recovering his form as a #1 G than Allen suddenly mutating into one at age 30.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with those saying Price needs to find his form or we are screwed, that Allen has never successfully carried a team as a starter for a prolonged stretch.  However, Carey Price is so f-ing useless right now that giving Allen the bulk of the starts while Carey works out the issues between his ears is absolutely the right thing to do.  Carey is so damn terrible that the only reason I'm watching the game tonight is that Allen is starting...I'm not even kidding.  Had Price been given the start, I would not put myself through the aggravation of watching the game....I'd watch Colorado/Arizona instead and just keep tabs on the scoreboard. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, sbhatt said:

I agree with those saying Price needs to find his form or we are screwed, that Allen has never successfully carried a team as a starter for a prolonged stretch.  However, Carey Price is so f-ing useless right now that giving Allen the bulk of the starts while Carey works out the issues between his ears is absolutely the right thing to do.  Carey is so damn terrible that the only reason I'm watching the game tonight is that Allen is starting...I'm not even kidding.  Had Price been given the start, I would not put myself through the aggravation of watching the game....I'd watch Colorado/Arizona instead and just keep tabs on the scoreboard. 

 

I have to admit, I find myself dreading Habs games rather than looking forward to them. I just might pass on the game tonight - after years and years of disappointment, I am not interested in yet another lost season, especially given that we have a roster which on paper should be very strong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I have to admit, I find myself dreading Habs games rather than looking forward to them. I just might pass on the game tonight - after years and years of disappointment, I am not interested in yet another lost season, especially given that we have a roster which on paper should be very strong.

 

I hear you...it's hard to be optimistic and get excited anymore, given the nature of the losses lately.  I need to see a spark of hope, which I am hoping to see from the team tonight because they have a goaltender that actualy makes some key saves when needed.  You can see the body language of the guys when Price lets in softies lately...they can support him in the press all they want, but their reactions on the ice don't lie; there is a clear 'here we go again' slumping of posture, and their gameplay goes down a notch or two after Carey sh!ts the bed.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

... As I’ve mused in other threads, it wouldn’t be Price’s 10.5 mil on the cap we recover; it will be 10.5 minus whatever it costs to pay Allen on a longer-term deal plus whatever it costs to sign a UFA goalie. 

Allen is signed for the next two seasons. through the 2022-23 season ... so a longer term deal is moot ... who knows what the situation will be by the time a new contract is an issue ...  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I have to admit, I find myself dreading Habs games rather than looking forward to them. I just might pass on the game tonight - after years and years of disappointment, I am not interested in yet another lost season, especially given that we have a roster which on paper should be very strong.

 

I "hear" (read) you

 

I am still planning to watch, I am curious about how Romanov develops, about how the forwards adjust to the new attack Philosophy (rules instead of system) and how the shifts are different (equally distributed? Blender? Riding hot players?)

 

I really care about this team, can't take my eyes away from the potential train wreck or the miracle

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I have to admit, I find myself dreading Habs games rather than looking forward to them. I just might pass on the game tonight - after years and years of disappointment, I am not interested in yet another lost season, especially given that we have a roster which on paper should be very strong.

 

5 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I "hear" (read) you

I am still planning to watch ...

I really care about this team, can't take my eyes away from the potential train wreck or the miracle

 

The 10:00 pm start is the tie-breaker for me ... I won't be watching live ... I'll record and decide what to do with it tomorrow ... unfortunately TVA does not offer the "Canadiens Express" option that RDS provides (the game in 60 minutes)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, suppose that Price is interested in a fresh start with the Kraken. And suppose that the Kraken are confident that getting out of Montreal can get him (close to?) his original elite level.

 

So, we trade Price ... for somebody, or prospects, or ... Anyway, as a part of the deal, the Kraken pick our choice in the expansion draft -- say, Edmundson or Chiarot (take your pick -- pun intended). I expect we would need to retain salary -- let's say it's a third, so we keep $3.5M of cap hit and the Kraken taked $7M.

 

Now we need a goalie. Allen is good, but as we all know, he has not done well as a clear #1. He would probably do well at 30 games (in a normal season), maybe even something around 40, but 50+ games is a non-starter. So, at the minimum we would need a tandem setup.

 

So, we go the UFA route, and we sign a Raanta or a Mrazek, or someone similar. (Halak is also a UFA, as is Saros, should the Predators not sign him early.) It'll probably cost us somewhere around $2.5-3.0M, I think, similar to Allen. At $3M and 1/3 retained salary for Price, we'd have a $4M cap savings. And, presumably, a goalie that is at least as good in the regular season, and hopefully close in the playoffs

 

But if we need retain half the salary, and the UFA going rate is $3.5M, then we'll be up to almost $9M, and a cap savings of only about $1.5M. And we would have the risk of an unknown goalie.

 

So, I think the key questions are, would Kraken want him, and at what salary? And, oh yes, would he want to go?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

So, suppose that Price is interested in a fresh start with the Kraken. And suppose that the Kraken are confident that getting out of Montreal can get him (close to?) his original elite level.

 

So, we trade Price ... for somebody, or prospects, or ... Anyway, as a part of the deal, the Kraken pick our choice in the expansion draft -- say, Edmundson or Chiarot (take your pick -- pun intended). I expect we would need to retain salary -- let's say it's a third, so we keep $3.5M of cap hit and the Kraken taked $7M.

 

Now we need a goalie. Allen is good, but as we all know, he has not done well as a clear #1. He would probably do well at 30 games (in a normal season), maybe even something around 40, but 50+ games is a non-starter. So, at the minimum we would need a tandem setup.

 

So, we go the UFA route, and we sign a Raanta or a Mrazek, or someone similar. (Halak is also a UFA, as is Saros, should the Predators not sign him early.) It'll probably cost us somewhere around $2.5-3.0M, I think, similar to Allen. At $3M and 1/3 retained salary for Price, we'd have a $4M cap savings. And, presumably, a goalie that is at least as good in the regular season, and hopefully close in the playoffs

 

But if we need retain half the salary, and the UFA going rate is $3.5M, then we'll be up to almost $9M, and a cap savings of only about $1.5M. And we would have the risk of an unknown goalie.

 

So, I think the key questions are, would Kraken want him, and at what salary? And, oh yes, would he want to go?

If we are retaining that much of his salary we are still sprending over $10M on goaltending. no thanks.  
I’d tell the Kraken, if they want him we aren’t retaining salary, otherwise I’d rather take my chances and hope that Price regains his form - like MAF did  (penguins also tried to get him back). For all the flack Fleury gets (I’ve never been a fan), he was a key guy on a cup win (and made a critical save in the final playoff game in th first cup win) and has been part of two other cup wins. Closest price has even got to the final was the year Kreider took him out.  But I don’t want to be paying Kraken and watch Price regain his form while paying a chunk of his salary.

 

This team was constructed, on MB rolling the dice on Price and Weber. Moving part of Price’s contract and either Edmondson or Chariot is not going to help if Weber also continues to decline and we still have a garbage D.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

I know what you are saying. But if you were the Kraken GM, would you take Price, at his current form, at $10.5M? Regardless of whether you had to give up assets or just a bag of pucks?


For the Kraken Price represents the celebrity, marketing the star goalie to sell stuff. 
 

They take him for zip at full salary expansion draft. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

I know what you are saying. But if you were the Kraken GM, would you take Price, at his current form, at $10.5M? Regardless of whether you had to give up assets or just a bag of pucks?

Would I?  No.  But NHL GM’s can be stupid and always seem to think they can turn a player around, or ignore signs of decline.  We did sign a washed up Briere.  Philly signed Lecavalier.  Ottawa signed Kovolev.  Hell, we gave up a lot to get the horrible Gomez contract.  So, I’d roll the dice that the Kraken or another team may bite.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Price wanted out and asked for a trade somewhere, and if his play returned to something quasi-resembling something worth trading for, he still has an $11 000 000 signing bonus due on the first day of free agency this offseason. You can probably count the number of teams willing to pay that money on one hand. And if Molson has to pay it before a deal can be done, he'll probably want more of a return on that investment next season with a few more sales of Price jerseys before greenlighting a move out of town. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always felt like Price would be happy to play in a smaller market out west with less pressure and lower taxes. I'd bet he'd love to go to Seattle. 

 

Trizzak brings up a good point about his signing bonus, that's quite the pill for anyone to swallow in this economy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Trizzak said:

If Price wanted out and asked for a trade somewhere, and if his play returned to something quasi-resembling something worth trading for, he still has an $11 000 000 signing bonus due on the first day of free agency this offseason. You can probably count the number of teams willing to pay that money on one hand. And if Molson has to pay it before a deal can be done, he'll probably want more of a return on that investment next season with a few more sales of Price jerseys before greenlighting a move out of town. 

$11M signing bonus but the salary is a mere pittance (relatively speaking) at $2M. So, next year's salary cost is $13M as compared to the $10.5M cap hit -- only about 20% difference. But the total cost then averages about $8M for the remaining four years of the contract. So, I think the cap hit is the real problem, not the actual salary dollars or next year's signing bonus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the expansion draft were like those of past years, then there would be no question but that Seattle would want Price. He would be a big name and, if he could recover his form, would give the team a chance to hang in and win some games.

 

But the Vegas expansion model throws this calculation way out of whack. We saw the Golden Knights become Cup contenders in their very first season as an expansion franchise due to the new rules (and also due to the stupidity of NHL GMs, Florida's in particular).

 

If you're the Kraken and you think you will be a highly competitive team from the get-go, like Vegas, then Price's contract could become a real concern. It would be smarter to retain cap flexibility and go with a platoon in net. But if you expect to be a normal expansion team and be fairly mediocre, then it makes good business and (arguably) hockey sense to go out and add Price.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/27/2021 at 12:02 PM, sbhatt said:

 

I hear you...it's hard to be optimistic and get excited anymore, given the nature of the losses lately.  I need to see a spark of hope, which I am hoping to see from the team tonight because they have a goaltender that actualy makes some key saves when needed.  You can see the body language of the guys when Price lets in softies lately...they can support him in the press all they want, but their reactions on the ice don't lie; there is a clear 'here we go again' slumping of posture, and their gameplay goes down a notch or two after Carey sh!ts the bed.

 

 

How do you get Carey back to playing well by sitting him on the bench though?  Its the catch-22.  maybe you give him a week to get his head straight, but after that he needs to play close to half the games to get in a rhythm too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...