Pre-Expansion Draft Discussion

[JoeLassister]

25 minutes ago, DON said:

Because we have only seen him play a couple games as a Hab and likely could use caproom he will take up, to sign UFAs? 

But, i still thought he was signed 'mostly' to make him a target for Seattle? And if not plucked, no big deal, he can be back up next year or be trade bait.

His cap hit is less than 3M$. Give me a break with Allen's cap hit.  Unless you absolutely want to go with a 6 figures backup.  Byron's cap hit is higher than that.  I say  Pay a pick ton unload Byron if necessary.  Keep Allen if you're serious about going deep in the playoffs.

 

[PMAC]

1 hour ago, JoeLassister said:

His cap hit is less than 3M$. Give me a break with Allen's cap hit.  Unless you absolutely want to go with a 6 figures backup.  Byron's cap hit is higher than that.  I say  Pay a pick ton unload Byron if necessary.  Keep Allen if you're serious about going deep in the playoffs.

 

I agree. In fact, I already said in another thread that Montreal should be considering giving Seattle a pick to lay off Allen. But getting them to pick Byron would be even better. 

[hab29RETIRED]

2 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

His cap hit is less than 3M$. Give me a break with Allen's cap hit.  Unless you absolutely want to go with a 6 figures backup.  Byron's cap hit is higher than that.  I say  Pay a pick ton unload Byron if necessary.  Keep Allen if you're serious about going deep in the playoffs.

 

his cap hit would be fine, IF Price was making $5M, or even $6M.  $13.5M on goaltending is not sustainable - especially when you are also paying a 4th line winger over $3M

[Commandant]

18 hours ago, Fanpuck33 said:

 

I mean, Florida's expansion draft moves were atrocious, but you can hardly point at Columbus as a mistake. Nobody on earth expected William Karlsson to score 41 goals and then settle in as a medicore 2nd line center after the fluke season. Dude had 20 and 25 points in two full NHL seasons and had shown no sign of being more than a 4th liner. Josh Anderson has ended up being a slower project, but I still think he probably ends up having the better career. And let's not forget a big part of that deal was unloading David Clarkson's contract. 

 

That being said, Montreal is not going to have to expose anyone whom they cannot live with out, so I say just let them have whomever we deem expendable.

 

 

That's the thing - I don't think Karlsson becomes what he is today if not for being unprotected and seeing a team trade assets to make sure they took him off their hands. It was a wake up call that unlocked a whole new player.  He had shown no signs in Columbus of being anything more than a 4th liner and nothing was going to change for him there.

 

Someone in the vegas scouting dept saw a player there and were right.

 

Sorry but columbus screwed up and Im not letting them off the hook for that.  

 

He could have developed in columbus too, a team that could have given him opportunity as they never had centre depth.

 

Im a huge believer in take your lumps, lose your third line forward or 2nd pair d or backup goalie and just move on.  Dont throw more assets at them.

[Commandant]

11 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

Like I said,  do not sell the farm at no cost.    A 2nd pick to pick anyone but Jake Allen...   Instead of losing Jake Allen.

 

IMO,  it's a good move.

 

You acquired allen for less than that.

 

You can find another backup goalie.  Especially if you decide to spend 3 million... and not cheap out like niemi and kinkaid.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

8 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

his cap hit would be fine, IF Price was making $5M, or even $6M.  $13.5M on goaltending is not sustainable - especially when you are also paying a 4th line winger over $3M

 

I tend to agree with this, I like Allen but that is a lot to pay for 2 goalies, it means you have to subtract somewhere else. I thought the plan was to give Primeau another year to get ready and let Allen get taken in the expansion draft or trade him at the deadline as was stated by another poster. 

[dlbalr]

10 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I thought the plan was to give Primeau another year to get ready and let Allen get taken in the expansion draft or trade him at the deadline as was stated by another poster. 

 

The problem is that Primeau won't be ready next year.  He's going to wind up with about 20 starts this season, that's not enough to make him NHL-ready.  I remember reading comments a while back from someone (might have been Waite) that suggested they view Primeau as three years away based on how many more AHL games they want him to play.  When you have a waiver-exempt goalie, he shouldn't be in the NHL unless he's the number one.  Otherwise, let him play as much as possible in the minors.

[GHT120]

8 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

his cap hit would be fine, IF Price was making $5M, or even $6M.  $13.5M on goaltending is not sustainable - especially when you are also paying a 4th line winger over $3M

 

24 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

I tend to agree with this, I like Allen but that is a lot to pay for 2 goalies, it means you have to subtract somewhere else. I thought the plan was to give Primeau another year to get ready and let Allen get taken in the expansion draft or trade him at the deadline as was stated by another poster. 

 

But if the Habs are to pay a backup much less than the $2.875 Allen is due to make next season then you have to be CERTAIN Primeau is ready to carry 20-25 games AND that sitting 70-75% of the time won't stunt his development (or, they could yoyo Cayden up and down to get AHL games whenever possible and hope it doesn't mess with his mind) ... OR ... "paging Keith Kinkaid et al". 

[alfredoh2009]

1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

 

But if the Habs are to pay a backup much less than the $2.875 Allen is due to make next season then you have to be CERTAIN Primeau is ready to carry 20-25 games AND that sitting 70-75% of the time won't stunt his development (or, they could yoyo Cayden up and down to get AHL games whenever possible and hope it doesn't mess with his mind) ... OR ... "paging Keith Kinkaid et al". 

 

Neither (no bottom-feeder goalie and no rushing Primeau), if Allen is picked up by Seattle the Habs will need to find a similar backup goalie or Lindgren will need to show he can fill in

Edited February 20, 2021 by alfredoh2009
explained "neither"

[GHT120]

3 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

Neither (no bottom-feeder goalie and no rushing Primeau), if Allen is picked up by Seattle the Habs will need to find a similar backup goalie or Lindgren will need to show he can fill in

So find a similar back-up goalie ... I have NO faith in Lindgren ... not certain how many Allen-quality UFA goalies will sign for what Allen will make next season ... 

[tomh009]

58 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

So find a similar back-up goalie ... I have NO faith in Lindgren ... not certain how many Allen-quality UFA goalies will sign for what Allen will make next season ... 

I would take a chance on Lindgren over yet another Kinkaid-level UFA.

 

But maybe we don’t lose Allen. I think it’s very difficult to project the Seattle picks with any reasonable accuracy.

[hab29RETIRED]

2 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

 

But if the Habs are to pay a backup much less than the $2.875 Allen is due to make next season then you have to be CERTAIN Primeau is ready to carry 20-25 games AND that sitting 70-75% of the time won't stunt his development (or, they could yoyo Cayden up and down to get AHL games whenever possible and hope it doesn't mess with his mind) ... OR ... "paging Keith Kinkaid et al". 

I don’t think Premieau is the answer until who totally dominates at the AHL level.  I also think that while the cap is flat, or close to its current level you can’t continue to pay $14m for goaltending and $3.5m to 4th liners. We NEED a real first pairing dman.  We don’t have the dominating elite centre (unless Suzuki becomes one), and need balanced scoring (which I think we now have), but we still need depth on D to make up for the lack of a truly elite offensive player that can take over a game.

[hab29RETIRED]

1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

Neither (no bottom-feeder goalie and no rushing Primeau), if Allen is picked up by Seattle the Habs will need to find a similar backup goalie or Lindgren will need to show he can fill in

Lindgren is not he answer. I’d rather cling to the hope that Premieau requires less games to be a player me or season  Dryden, or even Penny,  than Lindgren amounting to anything.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

3 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

 

But if the Habs are to pay a backup much less than the $2.875 Allen is due to make next season then you have to be CERTAIN Primeau is ready to carry 20-25 games AND that sitting 70-75% of the time won't stunt his development (or, they could yoyo Cayden up and down to get AHL games whenever possible and hope it doesn't mess with his mind) ... OR ... "paging Keith Kinkaid et al". 

 

True, you have to be confident that Primeau will be ready otherwise you are back to playing Price too much. If Primeau is not ready then you would likely not get a competent back up goalie for much less than the 2.8M they would be paying Allen. 

[tomh009]

1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Lindgren is not he answer. I’d rather cling to the hope that Premieau requires less games to be a player me or season  Dryden, or even Penny,  than Lindgren amounting to anything.

I am kindling hope that Primeau has potential to be a top goalie. If we want that to happen, he should be getting lots of games in the AHL, not an occasional one behind Price. So, if it comes down to it, I would rather than Lindgren as the #2 rather than Primeau.

 

But, really, I would rather keep Allen.

[hab29RETIRED]

3 hours ago, tomh009 said:

I am kindling hope that Primeau has potential to be a top goalie. If we want that to happen, he should be getting lots of games in the AHL, not an occasional one behind Price. So, if it comes down to it, I would rather than Lindgren as the #2 rather than Primeau.

 

But, really, I would rather keep Allen.

Agreed.

I want Premieau playing almost  every game this season if he can and next year if he needs to in the AHL.  Goalies take time and I say let’s see if he shows he can succeed in the AHL, before bringing him up. I’m tired of being up players before they are ready because the NHL lineup sucks. I know some feel KK belonged in the NHL in his first year, but i wish we had given him the extra year to develop.  
 

I want nothing to do with Lindgren at the NHL level. Who knows he may prove me wrong and good for him if he does.  But he has not shown himself to be a viable option as an NHL backup- especially when we know we need to lighten Price’s workload.

 

I’d rather have Allen next year, or another legit backup if we lose him in the expansion draft (which I expect).  However, we need to find a more capable and cheaper backup long-term and I don’t think Premieau will be ready for that role next year. I don’t know why that we have to rush kids or sign washed out rejects like Kincaid or Neimi.  Other teams do a good job developing, or trading for cheap young capable goalies. Allen is the first legit backup that MB has had since becoming GM - but long-term we can’t afford that kind of salary.  While I like what Allen has shown, I wouldn’t be willing to give up any additional assets to try and keep him in the expansion draft and  I don’t think we can afford him the following year - unless the cap is tight and he is forced to take a another pay cut.

If anything I wouldn’t mind giving up a 3rd round pick to unload Byron’s contract - if it gives us room to improve the D. But otherwise, let Seattle take whoever they want - Allen, Edmondson, or whoever else we expose.  I said this at the beginning of the year - byron makes too much for what he brings.  He was a good top sixer on crappy team and would be a good bottom sixer at under a $1M - particularly in a time when teams added guys like Simmonds for less than half of what Byron makes. I’d rather sign Perry for under a million next year than keep Byron’s contract.  I said it the beginning of the year and I wish we had waived Byron at the start of the season, when maybe someone would have taken him.

 

I like what we have in our forward group - both in the NHL and in the pipeline. I do think we need to develop Dmen and goalies better. But regardless of position we need to stop rushing players into the NHL to fill holes before they are ready. While Romanov has looked good at the start, Id actually prefer sending him down to the AHL and have him play 20+ min a night and seeing how much he can dominate. He needs to be playing at his age. 
 

Similarly, while I hope to they sign Caufield at the end of the year and give him a look, I hope they let him develop in the AHL next year if he needs to.  We’ve rushed players to much and than tried demoting them later and the only one that approach really worked withwas Maxpac - and that was around 10 years ago. KK improved last year, but I think that was more because the time off between the regular season and playoffs was like an off-season.  We have better pipeline of young players. Going forward we need to do a better job developing them.

[alfredoh2009]

I don’t understand such hate for Lindgren

 

[tomh009]

1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I like what we have in our forward group - both in the NHL and in the pipeline. I do think we need to develop Dmen and goalies better.

I think I'm mostly agreeing with you. We do actually have a very solid pipeline of D prospects. The challenge will be in developing them properly.

[dlbalr]

1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I said it the beginning of the year and I wish we had waived Byron at the start of the season, when maybe someone would have taken him.

 

Most of the league couldn't have afforded him then either - it's the same teams that have cap room now that had it five weeks ago.  There's zero chance he would have been claimed.  That's why so many people were calling for him to be waived since it was an absolute certainty that he'd clear.  This isn't something you can blame Bergevin for - no one was taking him whether they waived him during the summer, training camp, or last week.

 

14 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I don’t understand such hate for Lindgren

 

 

He hasn't played well in the AHL in three years.  Sure, he's been passable at times with the Habs but if you can't crack a .900 SV% in the minors, you don't really have NHL prospects.

[tomh009]

4 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

He hasn't played well in the AHL in three years.  Sure, he's been passable at times with the Habs but if you can't crack a .900 SV% in the minors, you don't really have NHL prospects.

A fair point on Lindgren. But if he's out of the question, then what? Can we really get a decent 1B goalie for much less than $2.8M? Doing another Kinkaid-type signing is madness, so then the other option is McNiven -- or Demchenko (since we need development time for Primeau). I think we should try to keep Allen, and accept the resulting cap constraints on the rest of the team.

[GHT120]

42 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I don’t understand such hate for Lindgren

 

Don't know that it is hate as a realistic recollection of what he has actually done ... even in his "big" 17/18 season his Sv% was a very pedestrian .908 ... IMO he only looked good as (a) the team was TERRIBLE, (b) his performance was unexpected and (c) Price (.900) and Montoya (.863) were terrible ... but the real surprise in goal that season was Niemi, who outshone them all (.929 Sv%) after joining the Habs mid-November ... he hasn't had a Sv% above .898 at the AHL or NHL level since.

[GHT120]

30 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

A fair point on Lindgren. But if he's out of the question, then what? Can we really get a decent 1B goalie for much less than $2.8M? Doing another Kinkaid-type signing is madness, so then the other option is McNiven -- or Demchenko (since we need development time for Primeau). I think we should try to keep Allen, and accept the resulting cap constraints on the rest of the team.

An option could be giving as many of the non-Price starts as possible to Primeau while letting him be the starter in Laval and using McNiven/Demchenko/??? as the bench-sitter for the Habs ... they would have to plan Primeau's starts for when both Habs and Rockets are in Montreal or it when is feasible for Primeau to get to a Habs game and back to the next Rocket game (so not on west coast swings, for example) ... sounds exactly what a corporate jet would be good for.

[dlbalr]

59 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

A fair point on Lindgren. But if he's out of the question, then what? Can we really get a decent 1B goalie for much less than $2.8M? Doing another Kinkaid-type signing is madness, so then the other option is McNiven -- or Demchenko (since we need development time for Primeau). I think we should try to keep Allen, and accept the resulting cap constraints on the rest of the team.

 

There are a lot of 1B-type goalies in free agency - Raanta, Bernier, Rittich, Mrazek, Reimer, etc.  Those would still be a step up on the likes of Niemi and Kinkaid.  Those guys probably don't come much cheaper than Allen's new salary though.

 

23 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

An option could be giving as many of the non-Price starts as possible to Primeau while letting him be the starter in Laval and using McNiven/Demchenko/??? as the bench-sitter for the Habs ... they would have to plan Primeau's starts for when both Habs and Rockets are in Montreal or it when is feasible for Primeau to get to a Habs game and back to the next Rocket game (so not on west coast swings, for example) ... sounds exactly what a corporate jet would be good for.

 

The old Patrick Lalime play that Buffalo used a while back.  Jhonas Enroth was the goalie of the future (boy, that worked out well) but they had Lalime basically serve as the backup for in-game replacements but most 'backup' starts went to Enroth.

[Fanpuck33]

13 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Someone in the vegas scouting dept saw a player there and were right.

 

Sorry but columbus screwed up and Im not letting them off the hook for that.  

 

He could have developed in columbus too, a team that could have given him opportunity as they never had centre depth.

 

Especially in the season before the draft, Columbus frequently gave him opportunities to play 15+ minutes and he put up 25 points. He never showed any signs of being a top 6 forward. Who else was Vegas going to pick from Columbus after agreeing not to take Anderson or Korpisalo? Matt Calvert? Jack Johnson?  I just think they get way too much credit for getting lucky. I mean, they thought Cody Eakin and Vadim Shipachyov were going to be their top centers.

[Commandant]

23 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I don’t understand such hate for Lindgren

 

 

Its cause he sucks