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Pre-Expansion Draft Discussion


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51 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

And on what basis will Molson base his decision?   Not popularity (although sadly that may play a small role) but the results that Bergevin has delivered ... Molson OK'd some serious spending (which is great) but if doesn't produce the results Molson expected than MB is more than likely in trouble ... and I doubt just making the playoffs is the standard ... in fact, before the season was the first time in a long time I recall them not setting (to paraphrase) "first you have to make the playoffs, and then we'll see" as the expectation.

The results that Bergevin has delivered -- but it's the results relative to the expectations and goals that Molson set, not the ones we have. And we don't have any insight into the discussions between Molson and Bergevin, so saying that Molson will fire Bergevin if the team doesn't achieve X is really just a wild guess.

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10 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

IF the GM’s obvious strategy was not HOPING two young centres were ready and HOPING that Romanov would be a top 4 dman in his first NHL season after basically pretty much sitting for over 6 months, AND he had actually gone out and got a top dman and a legit proven centre.

Snipping most of your reply ... and in principle I agree that ultimately the GM is responsible for the team's performance (within the constraints set by the owner -- and the league), he hires the staff and selects/approves the players drafted or traded.

 

That said, I don't know who Bergevin could have got as a top defenceman in the summer, and a proven centre, and still fit the team under the cap. Unless he didn't sign Toffoli and Allen (I assume Edmundson would be out anyway if we had signed a top defenceman).

 

Who were the players (top defenceman and proven centre) that were available and that Bergevin should have signed in the off-season?

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51 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Snipping most of your reply ... and in principle I agree that ultimately the GM is responsible for the team's performance (within the constraints set by the owner -- and the league), he hires the staff and selects/approves the players drafted or traded.

 

That said, I don't know who Bergevin could have got as a top defenceman in the summer, and a proven centre, and still fit the team under the cap. Unless he didn't sign Toffoli and Allen (I assume Edmundson would be out anyway if we had signed a top defenceman).

 

Who were the players (top defenceman and proven centre) that were available and that Bergevin should have signed in the off-season?


I think about Lamoriello and the things he accomplished and I ask if Lou was our GM would we have been without a centre for a decade? Would Lou have traded a franchise Dman for a winger to play centre? Would Lou just keep watching our gaping hole at LD and not fill it?

 

Think about what this guy got done. Trading the untradable, filling team holes, over and over.  Why can’t our GM get it done? Because the ownership has low standards and accepts it. 
 

How long will this retool last? There is a very real problem with the vets not meeting the rookies - the divide is too great. Our highly rated prospect pool is very shallow. Prospect Dmen are long ways off and what impact forward outside of Caufield do we have? 
 

It’s been 10 years and we are still mediocre and if you have an objective look at the team, the immediate future looks crappy too. 

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3 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Wouldn’t MH be MB_V2.0 ?

 

no experience , good track record in a lesser role, former player ?

 

What is the guaranty that he is a sure fire improvement ?

can he bring a cup in 2022?

 

or will he be going in a 5 year plan laden in misery and losing records ? 

I don’t get how that makes him MB 2.0?  He played a key role in Toronto. He’s the reason they chose Marner, over the consensus Hanafin. 
He has been a GM and part of owner for a highly successful  junior team. 
what’s your solution not higher anyone ever because they may not do better than building the mediocre tram that MB has. Or continue waiting for a GM with a long track record that can speaks French? is Briabois the only one  - though he doesn’t have a long track record?  
 

we need a change NOW. You don’t keep someone as GM because you don’t know who the perfect candidate is, you start looking for someone else because the guy you haven’t hasn’t gotten the job done. 
 

who are the GM’s who have been in place longer than MB

- Poile - been to the finals and had some powerhouse teams - big knock was never being able to develop an elite centre. Flip-side was that he was a master at developing elite dmen and didn’t have to throw stupid money at the Alzners of the world to fill holes in defence (did throw stupid money at Turris and Duschane.  He also moved on from players in decline much faster than MB

- Wilson - been to the finals and had had some consistent powerhouse clubs that didn’t win in the playoffs

-Murray - had some very strong teams and until last few years where they went into rebuild mold, had consistently strong teams

-Bowman - multiple cups in chicago. He was born in Montreal - maybe he speaks French and we can wait until he, or Briabois get fired so we make a change 🙄

-Armstrong - won a cup in St. Louis and had some very strong teams

-Cheveldeyoff - took over a relocation team and had built a very strong team - in a location that is even harder to retain players and attract free agents than Montreal. 
 

that’s it for GM’s given a longer rope than MB. Only Bowman inherited a stronger team.  The rest improved and rebuilt their teams and except Anaheim that is in a rebuild and San Jose all are better than Montreal. Anaheim has better prospects and Wilson is probably finally close to being done. But unlike MB, he has always filled major holes like trading for franchise type dmen (burns, Karlsson - who may end up being an early decline player), and certainly centre (Thornton larceny).

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On 4/17/2021 at 9:53 AM, tomh009 said:

Snipping most of your reply ... and in principle I agree that ultimately the GM is responsible for the team's performance (within the constraints set by the owner -- and the league), he hires the staff and selects/approves the players drafted or traded.

 

That said, I don't know who Bergevin could have got as a top defenceman in the summer, and a proven centre, and still fit the team under the cap. Unless he didn't sign Toffoli and Allen (I assume Edmundson would be out anyway if we had signed a top defenceman).

 

Who were the players (top defenceman and proven centre) that were available and that Bergevin should have signed in the off-season?

I keep hearing who was available. It’s not just this year. We’ve had a hole since Markov. And every year it’s the same thing question here - who is available? Centres don’t grow in trees. Who knew Thornton and Seguin were available until they were moved? A couple of years earlier ROR was available. There were rumblings about 

 Dubois before the season started. Maybe you try making a larger deal for Anderson-Domi. Same with dmen.  NYR traded for and traded elite dmen like candy every couple of years TBL have added elite or very good dmen every couple of years (McDonough, Sergechev, Savard. Peitrangelo was supposed to stay in St Louis - until he didn’t. 
MB has consistently gone for the lumbering big classic puck blocking dman since he’s been here. It’s been a bout getting bigger, mountain man. Chariot. Edmondson, Alzner. Weber and Petry were the only two elite dman he picked up in almost 10 years.

 

good GM’s fill holes. MB whines consistently how hard it is to make a trade. Good centres and defence have to be drafted. So what does he do, trades his best d draft pick since he has been here for a winger he tries to convert into a centre.?!???

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1 hour ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:


I think about Lamoriello and the things he accomplished and I ask if Lou was our GM would we have been without a centre for a decade? Would Lou have traded a franchise Dman for a winger to play centre? Would Lou just keep watching our gaping hole at LD and not fill it?

 

Think about what this guy got done. Trading the untradable, filling team holes, over and over.  Why can’t our GM get it done? Because the ownership has low standards and accepts it. 
 

How long will this retool last? There is a very real problem with the vets not meeting the rookies - the divide is too great. Our highly rated prospect pool is very shallow. Prospect Dmen are long ways off and what impact forward outside of Caufield do we have? 
 

It’s been 10 years and we are still mediocre and if you have an objective look at the team, the immediate future looks crappy too. 

Exactly! Good GM’s full holes with the right pieces. They don’t make a cut themselves and take a bandaid from one wound and put it on another. The entire Drouin experiment in  itself is a reason to fire MB.

I don’t ever remember Lou complaining how hard it is to make a trade.

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14 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I don’t get how that makes him MB 2.0?  He played a key role in Toronto. He’s the reason they chose Marner, over the consensus Hanafin. 
He has been a GM and part of owner for a highly successful  junior team.

 

Hunter's an interesting case.  He was part of the management group in Toronto but hasn't had a sniff since then.  I think he may have had one interview for a GM opening.  His track record in London is largely meaningless given what they're allowed to get away with in terms of under the table shenanigans, similar to Patrick Roy with the Remparts.  I suspect that's hurting him more than helping in terms of trying to find an NHL GM job.  Definitely an intriguing under the radar option though.

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3 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

Hunter's an interesting case.  He was part of the management group in Toronto but hasn't had a sniff since then.  I think he may have had one interview for a GM opening.  His track record in London is largely meaningless given what they're allowed to get away with in terms of under the table shenanigans, similar to Patrick Roy with the Remparts.  I suspect that's hurting him more than helping in terms of trying to find an NHL GM job.  Definitely an intriguing under the radar option though.

Wrong thread @dlbalr :nuts:

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We've been over this multiple times, but the "this is the team MB built after 10 years" isn't exactly true. 

 

MB has really built two seperate teams; he went for it once with the Subban/Pacioretty/Galchenyuk/Markov/Plekanec etc... core and that team won the division a few times, got to the final four, and then fell apart.   He then reset that core and has started to retool it.  This is really a second team that he's doing.  So its not all part of the same plan. 

 

There was a clear break where stopped trading away picks and prospects for finishing pieces and then started collecting picks and prospects again.... now he is starting to add the finishing pieces again this past summer, with the Edmundson, Toffoli, Anderson moves and even at this deadline with Staal, and the Dmen. 

 

Price, Gallagher, and Petry are really the only people who can be considered core pieces in both sets of teams.  The new group has Suzuki/KK/Drouin/Weber/tatar/toffoli/anderson etc...

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5 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

No need to butt-in in my question to @hab29RETIRED to take a jab at me. I asked a simple question: who is this unicorn GM that will come in to do a better job than MB ?

 

I am not defending MB (that is another thread), I am just asking who is this other person who is better (just better, not soooo much better) than MB ?

 

Apologies if you felt it was a private discussion limited to you and hab29RETIRED ... and agree that the merits of Bergevin being retained or fired is another discussion.

 

And it was not a jab at you personally but at the essence of the question (you are not unique in posing such a question) ... as it was asked the question implied, intended or not, that no one should advocate for Bergevin (or presumably any GM or coach) to be fired unless they have a replacement in mind who is guaranteed to be better. 

 

IMO it is not for fans to know who should replace a GM (not that it will ever stop us from each having an opinion) ... it is ownership's job to pick the right person, just as it is a GM's job to pick the right coach ... to not express the need for change if a fan feels it is needed is accepting less then the fan feels the team deserves.

 

In the totality of the thread, as a fan I was expressing that if the Habs do not perform well in the playoffs then Bergevin's time is done ... by corollary, if they do well he deserves an extension ... IMO GM's should not be lame ducks contractually ... so, IMO this summer is fish or cut bait on MB's contract ... extend or fire.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

We've been over this multiple times, but the "this is the team MB built after 10 years" isn't exactly true. 

 

MB has really built two seperate teams; he went for it once with the Subban/Pacioretty/Galchenyuk/Markov/Plekanec etc... core and that team won the division a few times, got to the final four, and then fell apart.   He then reset that core and has started to retool it.  This is really a second team that he's doing.  So its not all part of the same plan. 

 

There was a clear break where stopped trading away picks and prospects for finishing pieces and then started collecting picks and prospects again.... now he is starting to add the finishing pieces again this past summer, with the Edmundson, Toffoli, Anderson moves and even at this deadline with Staal, and the Dmen. 

 

Price, Gallagher, and Petry are really the only people who can be considered core pieces in both sets of teams.  The new group has Suzuki/KK/Drouin/Weber/tatar/toffoli/anderson etc...


He took Gainey’s team and had some playoff wins. He then sank the team and then called for a retool. We mucked about near the bottom of the league and after a stellar off season here we are. 
 

so yes, 10 years later we are actually worse than when we started. 
 

The worst part is we are looking at years of more crap teams as we wait for the young to mature while the old deteriorate. 
 

It’s time for a new set of eyes and hands on this team 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

We've been over this multiple times, but the "this is the team MB built after 10 years" isn't exactly true. 

 

MB has really built two seperate teams; he went for it once with the Subban/Pacioretty/Galchenyuk/Markov/Plekanec etc... core and that team won the division a few times, got to the final four, and then fell apart.   He then reset that core and has started to retool it.  This is really a second team that he's doing.  So its not all part of the same plan. 

 

There was a clear break where stopped trading away picks and prospects for finishing pieces and then started collecting picks and prospects again.... now he is starting to add the finishing pieces again this past summer, with the Edmundson, Toffoli, Anderson moves and even at this deadline with Staal, and the Dmen. 

 

Price, Gallagher, and Petry are really the only people who can be considered core pieces in both sets of teams.  The new group has Suzuki/KK/Drouin/Weber/tatar/toffoli/anderson etc...

Well expressed ... and an interesting perspective that I had not considered previously.

 

Between those "two teams" were two two off-seasons in which he committed to then two core pieces but didn't provide them the support needed for them to take the team further ... the next offseason he undertook a re-tool while those assets became less reliable ... a retool that is at least one year, likely two, away for KK and Suzuki to be at their potential to be a true 1/2C tandem ... and longer for the re-tooled defence.

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4 hours ago, Commandant said:

We've been over this multiple times, but the "this is the team MB built after 10 years" isn't exactly true. 

 

MB has really built two seperate teams; he went for it once with the Subban/Pacioretty/Galchenyuk/Markov/Plekanec etc... core and that team won the division a few times, got to the final four, and then fell apart.   He then reset that core and has started to retool it.  This is really a second team that he's doing.  So its not all part of the same plan. 

 

There was a clear break where stopped trading away picks and prospects for finishing pieces and then started collecting picks and prospects again.... now he is starting to add the finishing pieces again this past summer, with the Edmundson, Toffoli, Anderson moves and even at this deadline with Staal, and the Dmen. 

 

Price, Gallagher, and Petry are really the only people who can be considered core pieces in both sets of teams.  The new group has Suzuki/KK/Drouin/Weber/tatar/toffoli/anderson etc...

 

yup, exactly how I've learned to see it too.

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  • 2 weeks later...

From what we be seen of Lekhonan since injuries forced him back into the lineup, after DD initially scratched him, he definitely needs to be protected.

 

With some of the headlines that Seattle is “officially” the 32nd team (like it wasn’t already done 🙄), I thought I’d revisit this thread on who we should protect/l and get clarity on who doesn’t need to be protected: 

 

forwards:

1-Taffoli 

2-Gallagher

3-Anderson 

4-KK

5-Drouin 

6-Lekhonan 

7-Evans 

 

dmen

1-Petry

2-Edmondson 

3-Kulak

 

goalie

1-Price

we have to protect Price, but I’d see if there is any interest on his part to move to Seattle and if Seattle wants him bad enough, see if we can make a deal, where we don’t get much for Price, but they take Byron.  Or even a deal where we move him to Seattle with weber. 
 

otherwise the hop on my part is Seattle takes Weber. 


My understanding  is that we don’t have to protect any of the following young players who have been in NHL games during the past three years (lf we do, I’d bump the last player on the above list to protect them):

-Suzuki

-Poehling 

-Romanov 

-Primeau

-Caufield 

 

With UFA’s I’d like to do the following:

1 - Danault let him walk unless he signs for under $4m/3yrs (probably will walk, because someone will pay more 

2 - Armia - resign after the draft for around the same money

3 - Tatar- resign after the draft at a reduction - under $4m for no more than 3 years

4 - Perry - resign to similar deal after draft, same salary, but offer more in bonuses

5 - Merrill - resign after the draft for same type of salary

 

Let everyone else walk. I’d see if we can try and acquire an upgrade on D from a team that risks losing a Dman in the draft. Obviously, if we can acquire dman before the draft, we expose Kulak, and even Edmondson if we can acquire two better dmen.
 

Whether it’s before, or after the expansion draft, we need to rebuild the D, and improve the centre position.  We also need to rid ourselves of at least one - preferably two of our bad contracts (Byron, Price, Weber)

 

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I have to admit - I’m fed up with the Price drama and find myself having lost faith in him to be the kind of reliable, top-10 NHL starter he is paid to be. When he’s not injured, he seems to be busy “trying to find his game” and getting lit up half the time. (Which is not to deny that he still looks strong the other half of the time).

 

I just might expose Price, and if he gets taken, go with a platoon of Allen and some other #1A guy in net.

 

Ditto Weber, frankly. Both contracts have the potential to be boat anchors to the necessary rebuild which will likely follow this season. That $18 mil can almost certainly be better spent. We sucked even when those guys were in their primes; it defies reason to see any reason why we would not suck with them in their long degeneration into uselessness.

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A pretty good summary, H29.  One of those forward re-signings you propose would need to happen before the draft though as they need two signed forwards that meet the GP criteria.  Byron is one but if you're protecting Evans, you need another one. 

 

I'm also surprised you'd offer Perry a deal with bonuses.  Offer him a one year deal around what he's making now and that's all it should take, no bonuses needed.  There isn't going to be much of a market for him despite his good showing earlier this season (he really hasn't done much of anything lately) so it's not as if there's going to be a bidding war for his services.  He'll have to settle for the minimum (or really close to it) or not play.  That's the reality of the flat cap, a lot of veterans have to sign for at or near the minimum.

 

21 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I just might expose Price, and if he gets taken, go with a platoon of Allen and some other #1A guy in net.

 

Price has the NMC though.  Unless he's willing to waive it, exposing him isn't an option.  If Price really likes Allen as his second option, perhaps he'd be amenable but who knows what the working relationship is likely there.

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I like Allen. I'd like him to continue to be on the team.

 

I really don't like the idea of Habs management bending over backwards to protect a backup goalie.

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45 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I have to admit - I’m fed up with the Price drama and find myself having lost faith in him to be the kind of reliable, top-10 NHL starter he is paid to be. When he’s not injured, he seems to be busy “trying to find his game” and getting lit up half the time. (Which is not to deny that he still looks strong the other half of the time).

 

I just might expose Price, and if he gets taken, go with a platoon of Allen and some other #1A guy in net.

 

Ditto Weber, frankly. Both contracts have the potential to be boat anchors to the necessary rebuild which will likely follow this season. That $18 mil can almost certainly be better spent. We sucked even when those guys were in their primes; it defies reason to see any reason why we would not suck with them in their long degeneration into uselessness.

Price has a NMC, so has to approve any move out of Montreal. Having said that his family ties to Seattle and seeing how Fleury’s move to LV rejuvenated his career, Seattle may be one of the locations Price okay a move to.

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20 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

A pretty good summary, H29.  One of those forward re-signings you propose would need to happen before the draft though as they need two signed forwards that meet the GP criteria.  Byron is one but if you're protecting Evans, you need another one. 

 

I'm also surprised you'd offer Perry a deal with bonuses.  Offer him a one year deal around what he's making now and that's all it should take, no bonuses needed.  There isn't going to be much of a market for him despite his good showing earlier this season (he really hasn't done much of anything lately) so it's not as if there's going to be a bidding war for his services.  He'll have to settle for the minimum (or really close to it) or not play.  That's the reality of the flat cap, a lot of veterans have to sign for at or near the minimum.

 

 

Price has the NMC though.  Unless he's willing to waive it, exposing him isn't an option.  If Price really likes Allen as his second option, perhaps he'd be amenable but who knows what the working relationship is likely there.

I’d sign someone cheap to meet the draft requirement - some you don’t really want - I wouldn’t want to sign Armia, or Tatar before the draft.

 

I know that old guys like Perry, are getting minimum, but given his year, I would think, other teams may offer him bonuses on top of the minimum on a 1 yr deal. And by bonuses, I’m thinking an extra $500k, which I wouldn’t mind paying if he earns it.  I’d rather pay him Han the stupid salary we are paying Byron, or even Chariot.

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12 minutes ago, Trizzak said:

I like Allen. I'd like him to continue to be on the team.

 

I really don't like the idea of Habs management bending over backwards to protect a backup goalie.

It’s not really to protect a backup. I’d just like to change our starter and dump the salary of our highest paid dman. Don’t suggest making a deal and giving up assets to protect Allen. But would want to get rid of the Price, Weber and Byron contracts.

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I know that old guys like Perry, are getting minimum, but given his year, I would think, other teams may offer him bonuses on top of the minimum on a 1 yr deal. And by bonuses, I’m thinking an extra $500k, which I wouldn’t mind paying if he earns it.  I’d rather pay him Han the stupid salary we are paying Byron, or even Chariot.

 

If Perry had a shot at playing higher up the lineup, I'd agree with you and he's deserving of a small bump.  But so many teams are capped out and are only going to have $800,000 or so per fourth line slot.  The days of those guys getting a bit more as a bonus are probably gone as a result.

 

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Price has a NMC, so has to approve any move out of Montreal. Having said that his family ties to Seattle and seeing how Fleury’s move to LV rejuvenated his career, Seattle may be one of the locations Price okay a move to.

 

Thanks for straightening me out. It’s a pity; like I say, I’m tired of the watching As The Carey Price Turns and think it’s just time to move along. It’s worth gently reaching out to him about Seattle. That said, I doubt he will be interested in uprooting his family. He doesn’t seem the type.

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8 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

... I doubt he will be interested in uprooting his family. He doesn’t seem the type.

 

True ... but his in-laws live within a couple of hours fo Seattle and I believe they spent the abbreviated offseason with them ... so open never knows for certain

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