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Who's a keeper and Who isn't


Habby1197

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Let's go through the lines.

Zednik: He's a keeper... Come to play in big games, scores big goals, has speed, and he's a bargain in the new NHL.

Koivu: Keeper, no doubt. There isn't a guy who gives more of himself and he also happens to be our captain, and 2nd most talented player.

Kovalev: Keeper, we're not the same without him... He's a game changer, pace setter, all of the above we need him.

Ryder: Keeper, our BEST natural goal scorer, and even though he isn't the fleetest of foot, he gets in the right spaces.

Ribeiro: Expenable... Yes he still puts up points but he is invisable most nights and hurts us too much in our own zone to be a real #2 centre.

Dagenais: Expenable, forsure has no place on this team.

Bulis: Expenable.... So many chances can't finish, I was a huge Bulis supporter, I've had enough.

Bonk: Expenable: Doesn't look interested at all... No emotion, just is out there. I'd get rid of him in a minute if I could, too bad we have him for another year.

Sundstrom: Expenable: Another emontionless player, sure he's good defensivly, but when the going gets tough he turtles.

Higgins: Keeper, I love this kid... a young Mike Peca... can do everything just needs a chance.

Perezhogin: Keeper, he's shown flashes of superstardom in his first 20 NHL games. Has game breaker speed, and he's going to get way better.

Plekanec: Keeper... A poor mans Koivu, plays tough, creative, fast, smart... Everything Saku is except less skilled in the offensive zone, however he's better in his our end than our captain.

Begin: Keeper, special player.

Ribiero+Bulis for a real second line centre with size would be nice.

Bonk for A Forward with some sandpaper to him... Improving the D would be nice too, but thats another story....Bulis, Sundstrom, Bonk, Ribeiro, Dagenais... all trade bait as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally posted by Trizzak

I'd say either Bulis or Sunny are expendable. I wouldn't want to get rid of both.

I don't know but to me i find bulis sundstrum and bonk not trade bait...

Look at it carefully bulis is an excelent 2 way player has awsome speed and not to shabby with his hands sometimes isnt the smartest but good 2 way player.

Then u have sundstrum he still has that scoring touch on him hes got hot hands and good ones and another great 2 way player in this team of mtl he will just get better as hes getting used to a more dominate hockey club and scoring chances will come his way.For if u look at it in kovalev when he first came took him 14 games to score 1 goal did u find him trade bait?

And then u have the powerful bonk big frame a lot of potential in him hes a good scorer also for his size and he isnt the so dumb great 2 way player and great against bigger lines teams to put against. yes he hasnt scored yet but being on 3rd line isnt always there to score its there to stop big players on big lines; so as far as iam concerned those guys should stay for now unless u get a more dominate player.

Now u have dags my simple reason he still hear cuz we have simply no one els and he big thats it plain and simple.

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Sundstrom and Bonk play with no emotion, they are far from the warriors you need to be succesful.

Look at the Flames picking up McCarty in the offseason for 800K, he give you way more for your buck than Sunny does. He's a guy you can go to war with... Those are guys we're lacking.

Gainey is smart though, he knows this too, and I'm sure by playoff time this will all be corrected.

[Edited on 2005/11/30 by Habby1197]

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Originally posted by Habby1197

Sundstrom and Bonk play with no emotion, they are far from the warriors you need to be succesful.

Look at the Flames picking up McCarty in the offseason for 800K, he give you way more for your buck than Sunny does. He's a guy you can go to war with... Those are guys we're lacking.

Gainey is smart though, he knows this too, and I'm sure by playoff time this will all be corrected.

[Edited on 2005/11/30 by Habby1197]

Oh ok so your looking for players who would go crazy and get penalty minutes, ok mcmarty i think would have done better then someone on the 3rd line but i dont think hes as talented of a scorer then sunny and bulis or bonk.

But i get what your saying but to me i leave scoring to the first 2 lines and 3rd to kill bigger guys not to start anything with them so we go on the PK; and the 4th line to just come and destruct chaos all over the rink to players with their speed and puck handeling.

But your right mtl is kind of a soft team but its also to our D.men who do we have to start something up and actually make teams think of them in that way i can only come up with souray and he hasnt done anything at the moment wich is raddeling ideas in my mind about trade...

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I pretty much agree with your assessment of the team but I would keep Bulis because he does so much more than just miss scoring chances. He is pretty much the only forward we have besides Begin that throws body checks. He is probably the fastest guy on the team which comes in handy on penalty kills. Even if he's not scoring, he causes the other team to back up because they have to respect his speed. He's great along the boards at getting loose pucks. In short Bulis, Bonk and Sundstrom are pretty much the same type players but Bulis is the best of them and every team needs a strong 2 way player on their 3rd line and Bulis fits that bill better than the other 2. His job is not to score but to provide solid 2 way play and he does a good job of it. The scoring chances he generates are just a bonus and sooner or later he will start capitalizing on them.

Getting rid of these guys would leave lines like this:

Kovalev Koivu Zednik

Perezhogin ?????? Ryder

Higgins Bulis Begin

?????? Plekanec ??????

That's a pretty good base to start from. Fill in the blanks with upgrades on what we have and you have a pretty solid team from top to bottom. It's not exactly easy to find good 2nd line centers but maybe Bob can find one. Easier said than done.

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with all respect... U guys should let go of the pipe.... joke aside

First of all you could trade everyone in the team for a matter of fact.... as long as you get something someone better in return... SO before we let Sunnyd or Bonk go... give me somebody worthy to ponder the trade!

Sundstrum isnt the best 2 way player in the league but why do you guys measure everything regarding goals and assists! HE READS PLAYS LIKE NO ONE ELSE in the league the fact that in each game he avoids at least 25% of the opponents oportunities to score.. this aint measurable with +- or goals assists... Bulis and Bonk the same in other ways! But if they were playing on the second or first line then YES! Points would matter more .. we had one shot more than the sens tonight but did you see the quality of the shots!!! if it wasnt cause our rookies could get some experience and confidence I would preffer to forfit the game!

All in all.... lets not get worried there is time and we aint missing the train this season were making the playoffs no matter what... just let BG the MOFO do his thing!!! AMEN!!

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i think the first move gainey should do is to secure koivu for 3 years and then try to get ribeiro out of here.

he has all the talent in the world but he doesn't show up everygame and I think he could interst another team.

we wouldn't get a better player in return, but we could go for some grit on our D.

as for our second line center, it's a mather of time before plekanets gets the permanent job

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Now that I can safely admit that I'm a huge Bulis fan without raising suspiscions (inside for old-timers), I think Bulis is a keeper.

Forget the chances Bulis misses, he has the right to miss them because he got most of those chances because of his speed and checking, chances nobody else on the roster could get. Watch him close, he rarely has a shift where he doesnt get to touch the puck. That's a huge positive.

What the Habs need is another guy with the type of intensity as Begin or Bouillon, with a good enough talent level to play on the top-2 lines. I'd trade Bonk for that guy. Put him on the LW of Ribs and make the 3rd line Bulis-Begin-Sundstrom/whoever.

Next get a defenseman with high offensive upside, someone good enough to get 1st PP time in most teams of the league. Not necessarily a #1 defenseman, just a #1 PP defenseman. Someone like Van Ryn or Krajicek in Florida, or Kronwall in Detroit.

Now you've got at least 2 top lines with good offense, and at least 2 lines with intensity, momentum-shifting players, and at least three different pairings with a defenseman who can carry & pass the puck, and a #1 unit PP with two great passers at the point, and a 2nd PP unit with Souray's shot to play with.

Much more dangerous team.

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I agree with alot of those assessments. I think Bulis is expendable because of higgins. He can play the 3rd line LW. Also this team needs more character, we have a grand total of 2 people who take the body, Begin and Komi. The rest are soft and don't play hard. I think the habs are stuck with Bonk, no one will trade for him due to his salary. Plus you have to give up someone good to get someone good. We need to upgrade the D, get some players who can check and play physical. Our 3rd and 4th line are all the same kind of players, soft, emotionless and no pride. That was embarrassing last night.

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For argument's sake, going with the "you have to give something good to get something good" way of thinking, I'd also add Zednik and Ryder to the list of "expendables". I love the finishing these two guys bring, but that's also what other teams will want. For the same reasons that some players were listed as "expendable" in this thread, other

teams will list them as "not really desirable". Zednik and Ryder must have high value in the market and are not the team's core. Again, it depends on what we are trying to do and who we are after.

Noboby has mentionned the D here. With the current situation, it would not be surprising that Gainey is looking around the league to acquire available help. Not saying this will happen or that, if it does, it will be big but if a move takes place in the next few days/weeks it will be to shore up the D. As far as the Habs D is concerned, only Markov (way too much upside) and Bouillon (way too much value) are "untouchables" in my book.

You can't go around messing with a team's chemistry for the sake of it, trades are dangerous things. But I think that, if the opportunity is there, something will now be done to shore up the D. Our frailty at that position has been exposed.

[Edited on 2005/11/30 by Rooster]

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I totally agree, i think zednick is more expendable then Ryder, mostly because Perezhogen has already played with Kovy and Koivu and done well. I think you can trade ribiero for a hard grinding checker, we need toughness. I would add Komi to the list of D untouchables. He is young and he hits which no one else does. He does make the occaisional mistake but he is young. Not like Rivet and souray.

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I agree with Patskidoo, there are some trigger happy people amongst us... Granted, recently I've been known to yell, "Trade that guy for a puck bag and sticks, he's useless!!" Yes, on some nights, even those composite sticks look more reliable than some of our beloved habs, especially in the defensive end.

However, IMO the single biggest issue is not what we DON'T have but how we're using what we have. Even without Kovalev we have enough speed and talent on this team to compete every night! Example:

Ribeiro: 6 Even Strength Points, -6, TOI/ 16:44, FO%, 41.9!!

Plekanec: 7 Even Strength Points, +5, TOI/ 11:59, FO%, 53.7

Plekanec rarely plays PP and most of his minutes get eaten up on the PK, but he's outscoring Ribeiro even strength!? I know Ribeiro is a favourite ... BUT, putting up points 5 on 4 does not, IMO, justify regular 5 on 5 minutes. Stats can be deceiving, but 6 EVEN strength points in 25 games and -6? ... Don't get me wrong, I think Ribeiro is one of the most talented players around. But it has been 1/3rd of a season and he looks LESS capable of being a 2nd line center every game. It's unfortunate, but things have changed since 03-04. Plekanec may not be as offensively talented but he plays with heart, grit and offensive awareness while being defensively sound.

I would love to see a second line, for at least the next few games, of Begin-Plekanec-Perezhogin, moving Ryder up to the first line. Sure, it's a young line, who some might argue won't score often, but damn it would be fast, play HARD and most importantly it shouldn't be a defensive liability. This team looks uninspired right now. With those 6 guys on the top 2 lines (Zednik, Koivu, Ryder) you've got 6 players who (mostly) leave it all an the ice every night. Maybe their play will be contagious and the likes of Bonk, Ribeiro and Dags will have poor immune systems. Wow, poor joke.

We're in a bit of a slump right now. No need to panic. But I think it's high time that those who are working their ass off every shift get promoted (for MORE THAN TWO SHIFTS) to provide energy and to show others that you get what you earn. I don't think we need a drastic overhaul just yet ... just a little fine-tuning.

And sure, I dream that Gainey will pull the trigger one day, landing us the Dman many think we need ... But in the meantime, I'll dream of Plekanec in Ribeiro's spot come Thursday night.... and Saturday. Dagenais needs a friend on the 4th line.

Sorry this was so long ... I rarely get a chance to write.

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In my opinion, Bulis and Sundstrom definitely aren't expendable.

Bulis is a sparkplug. So what if he doesn't score on his opportunities? Atleast he gets opportunities. I remember atleast 5 games this season when we were getting destroyed in the first period, Bulis gets a breakaway, hits the post, the Habs get momentum and dominate the rest of the game. He's a 3rd line TW forward, for God's sake. How many points do you expect him to get? Like someone said, every chance he gets is a bonus and more then should be expected of the regular third liner. And he is one of the best hitters on the team too.

Sundstrom is a one-dimensional player but he has mastered atleast one half of the game, something that 90% of NHL players have never done. He can play defence better than many defenceman and he can block shots, break up passes, and make steals. He hardly ever makes a mistake. He's a model player and great at showing the rookies how to play. You're never going to see him make a bonehead play in his own zone. The most reliable player on the team.

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Habinator

Plex has been playing a lot of PP.

Just last night he played 3 min thats only a min less then Koivu.

Ribero has been on the 4th line for a game and a half already with Dags.

Thats it other than that great post and PLex is on the second line with higgs and ryder I like that line a lot and will even more when Kovy is back.

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Lets Stay COOL!

Jacques "Forgot my Glasses" Demers says...

That we need not be Hasty with Streit nor Bonk that they need more time... I personnaly feel this is true for Bonk and perhaps Steit too but it woundt hurt to send him for 30 games down to Hamilton

I think the Dmen situation is workable before Playoffs.

I'm now more worried about the second line... also time will tell ... Zed back to 2nd line ribs out the rooks more ice time for sure!

DONT GO AWAY !! WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK AFTER THESE MESSAGES!

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In my Opinion ribs gooooooodbye:) And i think mtl can get someone worth playing the second line if they get ride of him with a low draft pick but also if u think bout it one of the reasons hes there is because he has great chemestry with ryder so i say thats what saves him at some moments.

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I trade Zednik and Souray before I trade Bulis or Sunny. Zednik has peaked as a scorer IMO, and Souray is too injury prone and just plain frustrating to watch. never know what you get.

I also think many of you are giving up on Ribeiro a tad too soon. The adjustments that he needs to make (speed, intensity, strength, maturity) are all doable things, with a little hard work and training, but they also take time. The things that he does have, on the other hand (on-ice vision, passing) you can't really coach. Coupled with the fact that he's not likely to get you a great return right about now, I would rather hold onto him.

We must remember that we are a young team, and part of what you get with youth is that they can be frustrating at times, and make you want to ship everyone's ass out of town. But sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make.

Dropping his buddy Dags would get Ribeiro's attention IMO. Couple of games in the press box wouldn't hurt either.

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Expendable: Dagenais, Streit, Zednik, Ribeiro, Bonk.

Any of these can be replaced as they are currently doing nothing for the team.

Dagenais and Ribeiro can't keep up. Bonk is supposedly a good defensive player but how many give aways in our own end has he had lately? Way too many. Zednik though he has some grit and a bit of a scoring touch spends too much time skating in a straight line along the boards. Never gets in front of the net. Striet is not NHL material. Traverse was better. Cote was also better.

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Originally posted by lrw

Expendable: Dagenais, Streit, Zednik, Ribeiro, Bonk.

Any of these can be replaced as they are currently doing nothing for the team.

Dagenais and Ribeiro can't keep up. Bonk is supposedly a good defensive player but how many give aways in our own end has he had lately? Way too many. Zednik though he has some grit and a bit of a scoring touch spends too much time skating in a straight line along the boards. Never gets in front of the net. Striet is not NHL material. Traverse was better. Cote was also better.

I agree that Zed is streaky and tends to be predictable, but he has a knack for getting the tough goals and he's strong on puck possession. He has his utility. I wouldnt trade him unless it would be to upgrade him.

Its a little the same with Ribs. Not really worth moving unless its to get an upgrade. I really doubt that Plekanec or Higgins can produce as much offense as Ribs, at least in the immediate future.

I'd add Sundstrom to that expendable list. With Plekanec, Bulis & Higgins in the lineup there's not really any need for a guy like Sunny.

I'd also put Rivet on that list. Not that he HAS to be traded, but he's not vital to the team aside from his off-ice presence. Rivet's alright, but he's limited. He's neither a good PP d-man nor a great defensive d-man. If moving him in a multiplayers deal could land us a d-man of Markov's caliber, it'd be worth it.

If there's 2 players I'd like the Habs to get in a deal that would solve some problems, it'd be Nagy + Morris from Phoenix. I'll leave it to you to find what it'd take to get those players.

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Originally posted by ap79
Originally posted by lrw

Expendable: Dagenais, Streit, Zednik, Ribeiro, Bonk.

Any of these can be replaced as they are currently doing nothing for the team.

Dagenais and Ribeiro can't keep up. Bonk is supposedly a good defensive player but how many give aways in our own end has he had lately? Way too many. Zednik though he has some grit and a bit of a scoring touch spends too much time skating in a straight line along the boards. Never gets in front of the net. Striet is not NHL material. Traverse was better. Cote was also better.

I agree that Zed is streaky and tends to be predictable, but he has a knack for getting the tough goals and he's strong on puck possession. He has his utility. I wouldnt trade him unless it would be to upgrade him.

Its a little the same with Ribs. Not really worth moving unless its to get an upgrade. I really doubt that Plekanec or Higgins can produce as much offense as Ribs, at least in the immediate future.

I'd add Sundstrom to that expendable list. With Plekanec, Bulis & Higgins in the lineup there's not really any need for a guy like Sunny.

I'd also put Rivet on that list. Not that he HAS to be traded, but he's not vital to the team aside from his off-ice presence. Rivet's alright, but he's limited. He's neither a good PP d-man nor a great defensive d-man. If moving him in a multiplayers deal could land us a d-man of Markov's caliber, it'd be worth it.

If there's 2 players I'd like the Habs to get in a deal that would solve some problems, it'd be Nagy + Morris from Phoenix. I'll leave it to you to find what it'd take to get those players.

(read bold)

No shit. Why would we make a trade if not to upgrade our team?

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