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Apr. 3rd, Senators vs. Canadiens - 19h00 EDT


alfredoh2009

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22 hours ago, DON said:

Why?

Because his job is not done  off the ice,  leading the kids, teaching them how to become pros and positive leaders themselves.

That's the real value of Shea Weber, not his slapshot or his declining mobility.

Unless Bergevin brings in Crosby/Toews/Bergeron...

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Weber should be protected.

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16 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

Because his job is not done  off the ice,  leading the kids, teaching them how to become pros and positive leaders themselves.

That's the real value of Shea Weber, not his slapshot or his declining mobility.

Unless Bergevin brings in Crosby/Toews/Bergeron...

 

Sorry, you don’t use $8 mil in cap space for a mascot, and I never believed in 50% of that mystical crap around Weber anyway. Mr. Leader has never won anything in 15 years in the league, nor even come close. You can get much cheaper veteran leadership (and what is Gallagher, chopped liver?)

 

Weber’s value depends overwhelmingly upon his play on the ice. 

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2 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Sorry, you don’t use $8 mil in cap space for a mascot, and I never believed in 50% of that mystical crap around Weber anyway. Mr. Leader has never won anything in 15 years in the league, nor even come close. You can get much cheaper veteran leadership (and what is Gallagher, chopped liver?)

 

Weber’s value depends overwhelmingly upon his play on the ice. 


This

 

 

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6 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Sorry, you don’t use $8 mil in cap space for a mascot, and I never believed in 50% of that mystical crap around Weber anyway. Mr. Leader has never won anything in 15 years in the league, nor even come close. You can get much cheaper veteran leadership (and what is Gallagher, chopped liver?)

 

Weber’s value depends overwhelmingly upon his play on the ice. 

His play on the ice hasn’t declined as much as seemingly everyone is trying to point out. His “declining” statistics this year are equivalent to some seasons in Nashville where he was still “progressing” and his mobility has never been a strength. Fans can scrutinize his speed with a magnifying glass but the reality is that people are looking to confirm their bias. Weber was always a leader, tough guy to play against, and an offensive power play specialist, in a sense. The main thing that has actually declined since he has become a Montreal Canadien, is his power play output. I’m not sure myself, but that may be partially due to coaching since it changed immediately once he joined a new team. Injuries may have also led to this in a few seasons. 
 

A leader is not a mascot and nor is Weber a mascot. He will still produce roughly 40 points as a defensemen in future seasons, and it is still entirely possible that he has a better season in an upcoming year than the season he has had up to date this year. Just because some people have long predicted his imminent decline from the very moment we acquired him I might add, doesn’t mean that will come into fruition. Even when Weber is being “overpaid” his 8 million, he will still be worth 5 or 6 million at worst, and so we are going to leave him unprotected due to a 1 or 2 million overpayment? Sure, the nay-sayers will say he will only be worth 1 or 2 million, but their perspective will be wrong. 
 

 

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I didn’t say get rid of him, first of all. What I do say is that he should be treated like any other player, assessed primarily in light of what he brings to the ice relative to his cap hit. The leadership stuff is mostly overblown garbage; Perry probably provides 95% of the “leadership” Weber does for a fraction of the cost (plus, unlike Weber, he actually knows how to win).

 

Second, the “confirmation bias” argument is a pile of crap. This has nothing to do with The Trade.The eye test suggests significant regression from Weber this year plain and simple. I don’t know what the advanced stats say, but there is no way the guy I’m seeing out there is a top-pairing D-man. At best he is a #3, but at this stage I see him more as a #4. He used to be much more than that, i.e., a legitimate #1 D-man - which, incidentally, is what he’s paid to be.

 

Blaming the coaches for his declining PP output is comical. Your argument appears to be the same as Bergevin’s, i.e., Weber will somehow be exempt from the fundamental laws of aging. Because Weber.🙄

 

What I do expect to see from Weber is a spike upward in his play in the playoffs. Then he will actually be “tough to play against” in his own end. Right now, he is relatively easy to beat in his own end, and the only “tough” part is all the cross checks you have to take in the back. Declining guys like him can usually step it up for a series or two in the playoffs, though, and that’s what I’m hoping for. 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I didn’t say get rid of him, first of all. What I do say is that he should be treated like any other player, assessed primarily in light of what he brings to the ice relative to his cap hit. The leadership stuff is mostly overblown garbage.

 

Second, the “confirmation bias” argument is a pile of crap. This has nothing to do with The Trade.The eye test suggests significant regression from Weber this year plain and simple. I don’t know what the advanced stats say, but there is no way the guy I’m seeing out there is a top-pairing D-man. At best he is a #3, but at this stage I see him more as a #4. He used to be much more than that, i.e., a legitimate #1 D-man - which, incidentally, is what he’s paid to be.

 

Blaming the coaches for his declining PP output is comical. Your argument appears to be the same as Bergevin’s, i.e., Weber will somehow be exempt from the fundamental laws of aging. Because Weber.🙄

 

What I do expect to see from Weber is a spike upward in his play in the playoffs. Then he will actually be “tough to play against” in his own end. Right now, he is relatively easy to beat in his own end, and the only “tough” part is all the cross checks you have to take in the back. Declining guys like him can usually step it up for a series or two in the playoffs, though, and that’s what I’m hoping for. 

 

 

 

 

He is a very good second pairing D that can play 1st pair minutes and fill in for long stretches that role. He is a legit top 4 D on any team.

That and the leadership he brings are more than sufficient to protect him and keep him, more than Scandella in STL, Luke Schenn in TBL, Jake Muzzin in TOR, etc.

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23 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I didn’t say get rid of him, first of all. What I do say is that he should be treated like any other player, assessed primarily in light of what he brings to the ice relative to his cap hit. The leadership stuff is mostly overblown garbage; Perry probably provides 95% of the “leadership” Weber does for a fraction of the cost (plus, unlike Weber, he actually knows how to win).

 

Second, the “confirmation bias” argument is a pile of crap. This has nothing to do with The Trade.The eye test suggests significant regression from Weber this year plain and simple. I don’t know what the advanced stats say, but there is no way the guy I’m seeing out there is a top-pairing D-man. At best he is a #3, but at this stage I see him more as a #4. He used to be much more than that, i.e., a legitimate #1 D-man - which, incidentally, is what he’s paid to be.

 

Blaming the coaches for his declining PP output is comical. Your argument appears to be the same as Bergevin’s, i.e., Weber will somehow be exempt from the fundamental laws of aging. Because Weber.🙄

 

What I do expect to see from Weber is a spike upward in his play in the playoffs. Then he will actually be “tough to play against” in his own end. Right now, he is relatively easy to beat in his own end, and the only “tough” part is all the cross checks you have to take in the back. Declining guys like him can usually step it up for a series or two in the playoffs, though, and that’s what I’m hoping for. 

 

 

 

Yes, and this entire post is something different than a “comical pile of crap”. 

 

:sarcasm_on:

 

Continue along with what you “expect to see” but this doesn’t mean it will be right.

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7 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Yes, and this entire post is something different than a “comical pile of crap”. 

 

:sarcasm_on:

 

Continue along with what you “expect to see” but this doesn’t mean it will be right.

 

OK, so you don’t expect to see an uptick from Weber in the playoffs - ? So much for “leadership.”

 

21 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

He is a very good second pairing D that can play 1st pair minutes and fill in for long stretches that role. He is a legit top 4 D on any team.

That and the leadership he brings are more than sufficient to protect him and keep him, more than Scandella in STL, Luke Schenn in TBL, Jake Muzzin in TOR, etc.

 

I agree that he is a legit #4 for sure. Also that the team will keep him (as I’ve maintained all along).

 

The key is to manage his minutes.

 

Too bad about the wasted cap space, paying him about twice as much as he’s worth on the ice, but it is what it is.

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18 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

OK, so you don’t expect to see an uptick from Weber in the playoffs - ? So much for “leadership.”

 

 

I agree that he is a legit #4 for sure. Also that the team will keep him (as I’ve maintained all along).

 

The key is to manage his minutes.

 

Too bad about the wasted cap space, paying him about twice as much as he’s worth on the ice, but it is what it is.

If he does have an uptick during the playoffs, I don’t expect it to be simply because he is a declining asset and that is what declining assets do.

 

Weber is much more than a #4 defenseman. His advanced stats, as you asked, have him pegged roughly around the 30th-40th place in the league for all corsi and fenwick statistics amongst defensemen. This would put him on the top pairing on any team based on those statistics. This all holds true despite the fact that he plays the 56th most minutes amongst defensemen. Even with his minutes at 56th in the league, this is still top pairing minutes.

 

With all that being said, our team has Jeff Petry, who also happens to be a RHD. If Weber is to play less minutes in the future and be considered a 2rd pairing defensemen I have no problem with him playing in that role. You have to pay to keep your players.

 

If there is a trade in the future involving Weber as he declines, that is fine. But let’s not change the fact that this conversation began because some people said that whether or not Weber should be protected was actually a question mark. Yes, he should be protected.

 

As for the leadership stuff, yea Weber brings leadership despite never having won anything in the NHL. He has won in general, period. This would be like saying Price doesn’t bring leadership and doesn’t make his teammates feel at ease, in general. He does.

 

Finally, as the for the power play, the point was that since Weber has been with the Habs, the Habs as an organization have has a bad power play. When Weber was on Nashville, there were seasons where Nashville had the best power play in the league. One could argue that this is completely due to Weber’s decline. Or one could argue, it may have to do with the new organization itself.

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IMO the Habs would do well to trade Weber but that is unlikely because Bergevin believes in Weber’s mythical leadership and prizes his mountain man status. 
 

Trade is also unlikely because nobody would take him now, all things considered.  
 

Kraken is possible if they too believe that Weber is Winston Churchill on skates and they want that leadership for their young players at the cost of free. 
 

This is clearly a divisive issue, some fans think he is great, some fans think he is long past his prime. 
 

I think Weber spends too much time miles away from the play and his defensive responsibilities because he is busy trying to mush someone’s face in. 

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2 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

Because his job is not done  off the ice,  leading the kids, teaching them how to become pros and positive leaders themselves.

That's the real value of Shea Weber, not his slapshot or his declining mobility.

Unless Bergevin brings in Crosby/Toews/Bergeron...

The value of all those others was that they were keys to cup wins. I don’t remember Weber winning one. Bowman had the beat line about players that are good in the room - they should stay in the room.  If Weber shows that he is worth the cap hit in the last stretch and playoffs he is worth protecting. If he continues to show obvious decline, you leave him unprotected with Byron and hope that Seattle takes one of them. You don’t use up $8m in cap room for somebody to be good in the room.

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I didn’t say get rid of him, first of all. What I do say is that he should be treated like any other player, assessed primarily in light of what he brings to the ice relative to his cap hit. The leadership stuff is mostly overblown garbage; Perry probably provides 95% of the “leadership” Weber does for a fraction of the cost (plus, unlike Weber, he actually knows how to win).

 

Second, the “confirmation bias” argument is a pile of crap. This has nothing to do with The Trade.The eye test suggests significant regression from Weber this year plain and simple. I don’t know what the advanced stats say, but there is no way the guy I’m seeing out there is a top-pairing D-man. At best he is a #3, but at this stage I see him more as a #4. He used to be much more than that, i.e., a legitimate #1 D-man - which, incidentally, is what he’s paid to be.

 

Blaming the coaches for his declining PP output is comical. Your argument appears to be the same as Bergevin’s, i.e., Weber will somehow be exempt from the fundamental laws of aging. Because Weber.🙄

 

What I do expect to see from Weber is a spike upward in his play in the playoffs. Then he will actually be “tough to play against” in his own end. Right now, he is relatively easy to beat in his own end, and the only “tough” part is all the cross checks you have to take in the back. Declining guys like him can usually step it up for a series or two in the playoffs, though, and that’s what I’m hoping for. 

 

 

 

Totally agree. Right now Weber isn’t even worth $5m. We are overpaying all our veteran dman with the exception of Petry. 

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2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

He is a very good second pairing D that can play 1st pair minutes and fill in for long stretches that role. He is a legit top 4 D on any team.

That and the leadership he brings are more than sufficient to protect him and keep him, more than Scandella in STL, Luke Schenn in TBL, Jake Muzzin in TOR, etc.

Those other three guys aren’t signed for a nearly $8 cap hit for another 4 years.

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Weber has clearly declined, and significantly in the defensive end of the ice. 

 

The xGA stats show this.   The shots he is giving up are coming from high danger areas more and more. 

 

Thats an issue with a nearly 8 million cap hit, so yes, I'd leave him unprotected. 

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Also his PP production being down is also part of his mobility issues.  He used to be better at moving laterally, or moving forward and backward in his spot, to get himself around shot blockers and create more of a shooting lane.  His limited mobility has made the opponents more effective at getting into shooting lanes and blocking his shots. 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

Also his PP production being down is also part of his mobility issues.  He used to be better at moving laterally, or moving forward and backward in his spot, to get himself around shot blockers and create more of a shooting lane.  His limited mobility has made the opponents more effective at getting into shooting lanes and blocking his shots. 

Hopefully coaching staff doesnt play favorites and goes strictly with performance.

Bergevin's stated idea of player loyalty, should kick in for Seattle draft...not that Seattle would pluck Weber as their choice...but let them if they want to. 

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23 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

If there is a trade in the future involving Weber as he declines, that is fine. But let’s not change the fact that this conversation began because some people said that whether or not Weber should be protected was actually a question mark. Yes, he should be protected.

 

Thank you.

I'm all for trading Weber, even adding to Weber for a potential upgrade and cover up for his cap hit.

 

But the idea of losing your team captain to Seattle without any form of return, without any guarantee that we'll fetch another top 4 RD on the market or in our system.

 

Throwing away one of the few leaders in the locker room for nothing,  one of the few players that can help  the young Suzuki, Ghule, Caufield and KK growing into  team oriented pros instead of Kassian/Galchenyuk/Domi type of players.  
For nothing in return ?!?

 

Just to get rid of his cap hit ?

 

It's bullshit.  Let's just become the new Sabres or Oilers then. Lot of talent, no leadership, no direction. No playoffs, no Cup.

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2 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

Thank you.

I'm all for trading Weber, even adding to Weber for a potential upgrade and cover up for his cap hit.

 

But the idea of losing your team captain to Seattle without any form of return, without any guarantee that we'll fetch another top 4 RD on the market or in our system.

 

Throwing away one of the few leaders in the locker room for nothing,  one of the few players that can help  the young Suzuki, Ghule, Caufield and KK growing into  team oriented pros instead of Kassian/Galchenyuk/Domi type of players.  
For nothing in return ?!?

 

Just to get rid of his cap hit ?

 

It's bullshit.  Let's just become the new Sabres or Oilers then. Lot of talent, no leadership, no direction. No playoffs, no Cup.

You do realize we’ve made the playoffs once and an additional play-in with the mountain man leader?  I doubt if you can trade him for a real meaningful return without giving up picks,  when his salary is lower, a floor team may trade for him, but we’d probably still need to include picks.

if we do well in the playoffs this year (still think we need to add to the LD), and Weber was a factor, you keep him. If he continues showing decline you expose him, because the D needs to be rebuilt anyways.

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5 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

Thank you. 

I'm all for trading Weber, even adding to Weber for a potential upgrade and cover up for his cap hit.

Moot, he is untradeable and you know that.

But the idea of losing your team captain to Seattle without any form of return, without any guarantee that we'll fetch another top 4 RD on the market or in our system. $8m in cap room buys almost any d-man in the league Joseph.

 

Throwing away one of the few leaders in the locker room for nothing,  one of the few players that can help  the young Suzuki, Ghule, Caufield and KK growing into  team oriented pros instead of Kassian/Galchenyuk/Domi type of players.  
For nothing in return ?!?

Part with an aging, slowing, rather expensive cap hit who simply cant play 20+minutes well anymore.

Just to get rid of his cap hit ?

See above arguments.

It's bullshit. You said it. Let's just become the new Sabres or Oilers then. Lot of talent, no leadership, no direction. No playoffs, no Cup.

NO way you can be serious!!!!:hammer:

 

 

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16 hours ago, DON said:

$8m in cap room buys almost any d-man in the league Joseph.

Sure. Now who's your RD pick to replace Weber as a whole on the ice and off the ice ?

 

Dougie Hamilton ? (will probably not hit UFA market)
Adam Larsson ?
Zach Bogosian ?
Brandon Montour ?
Michael Stone ?
Ian Cole ?
David Savard ?
Alex Goligoski ?

Jason Demers ?
Erik Gustafsson ?
Samuel Morin ?
Kevan Miller ?
Steven Kampfer ?

Alex Biega ?
Brandon Smith ?
Erik Gudbranson ?
Sami Vatanen ?
Tony DeAngelo ????

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Right. The argument for keeping Weber is not that he is magically immune from the aging process, nor that he is worth his ridiculous contract, nor that he has some sort of Magical Leadership Powers. Rather it’s that subtracting him from our D leaves a significant hole in our already-mediocre blueline. 

 

Of course, leaving him exposed in the expansion draft doesn’t necessarily mean losing him. It is far from obvious that Seattle is going to want to take on that millstone of a cap hit.

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17 hours ago, Commandant said:

You also have to look at it as the opportunity to protect one more defenceman instead of Weber. 

 

I still don't think they are taking Weber.  I think they take Allen. 

lol. if you feel  Allen has more chance to be picked than Weber ?!?!? which Dmen are you so afraid of losing instead of Weber ?   Let me guess... Kulak ?

I wouldn't mind one second if they chose Edmunson or Chiarot.  They're redondant and suck most of the time.

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I agree that you leave Weber exposed, if Seattle does take him then you have some significant cap room that can be used for a younger player, hopefully used smartly. The defence does need to be rebuilt, it is not good enough.  The team is not good enough yet, I hope MB doesn't chase at the deadline by giving up young propsects/picks for a player that will make us marginally better. I am willing to be more patient and let our young players develop. This team is just not good enough to win this year (although miracles can happen).  

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