Do We Want A Winner?

[Dave from Vancouver]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that with our current core, this team will never win the Stanley Cup. And this is the line that makes me realize why:

8 GP

3 G

11 PTS

+5

Yes, those were Saku Koivu's stats during the Olympic games. And yet, this is a guy who hasn't scored an NHL goal since January 28...19 games ago! And he just recently signed a contract for how much? And this was supposed to motivate him to play better? Well, we're still waiting.

It is not a controversial statement to say that many European players would, if forced to choose, would rather win a Gold Medal than the Stanley Cup. Players like Mats Sundin readily admit this. Then really, it should come as no surprise that the captains of all the past Stanley Cup winning teams were either Canadian or American. Fans of the Canucks, Leafs, Panthers, Senators, Kings, and yes, Canadiens, don't hold your breath.

Some may find these words unfair to European players, but I am only stating the facts. European players can bring a very valuable aspect to the team (think Jagr in Pittsburgh, Kurri in Edmonton), but I would only want someone on the Habs if they understand the importance of being a Canadien and would be willing to do anything to win the Cup. This standard applies to any player, regardless of where they call home.

It really surprises me, especially in places like Montreal and Toronto, where fans practically live off the success of their team, that fans don't demand players that place winning the Stanley Cup at the top of their list. Given that these same players rake in millions of dollars annually, is this too hard to ask? Its all the more frustrating when you consider the legends of days gone by: Richard, Beliveau, Geoffrion, Lafleur, Plante, Blake...who did whatever it took to win the Cup...and worked a 2nd or 3rd job!!! These guys considered donning a Montreal jersey as a representation of an entire nation, be it the French Canadian nation, or even Canada as a whole. Something tells me guys like Bulis, Streit, and Kovalev, who just seem so opposed to skating hard every shift and getting their noses dirty, don't feel the same pride.

Montreal fans are often criticized for being too harsh on their team. Bogus! Since they have such a strong emotional attachment to their team (and pay the high ticket prices), it is their right to only expect the best, to expect players who value the 'CH' with all their heart. Unfortunately, not enough of the current Habs do.

So I'm taking bets that the Canadiens won't win the Cup for a while, especially after Gainey continues to foolishly toss money and over pay guys like Kovalev and Koivu. Why pay a guy (I'm talking Koivu here) who has never really done anything, both statistically and in terms of winning. We should have let him walk and then shown the money to guys like Richards and Redden (pay them and they will come). Maybe some are content with these 8th seed shenanigans, but I want to win a Cup, and to do so, you need winners.

-Dave

Edited March 23, 2006 by Dave from Vancouver

[GoHabs2002]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that with our current core, this team will never win the Stanley Cup. And this is the line that makes me realize why:

8 GP

3 G

11 PTS

+5

Yes, those were Saku Koivu's stats during the Olympic games. And yet, this is a guy who hasn't scored an NHL goal since January 28...19 games ago! And he just recently signed a contract for how much? And this was supposed to motivate him to play better? Well, we're still waiting.

It is not a controversial statement to say that many European players would, if forced to choose, would rather win a Gold Medal than the Stanley Cup. Players like Mats Sundin readily admit this. Then really, it should come as no surprise that the captains of all the past Stanley Cup winning teams were either Canadian or American. Fans of the Canucks, Leafs, Panthers, Senators, Kings, and yes, Canadiens, don't hold your breath.

Montreal fans are often criticized for being too harsh on their team. Bogus! Since they have such a strong emotional attachment to their team (and pay the high ticket prices), it is their right to only expect the best, to expect players who value the 'CH' with all their heart. Unfortunately, not enough of the current Habs do.

So I'm taking bets that the Canadiens won't win the Cup for a while, especially after Gainey continues to foolishly toss money and over pay guys like Kovalev and Koivu. Why pay a guy (I'm talking Koivu here) who has never really done anything, both statistically and in terms of winning. We should have let him walk and then shown the money to guys like Richards and Redden (pay them and they will come). Maybe some are content with these 8th seed shenanigans, but I want to win a Cup, and to do so, you need winners.

-Dave

People were questionning Yzerman's ability to bring a winner to Detroit, that after an impressive offensive record, but three Cups (including two back to back) shut everyone up. I don't think it was a coiincidence that once Bowman came on board that team was able to put everything together.

Last time I check, Redden hasn't one anything yet either.

Edited March 23, 2006 by GoHabs2002

[Dave from Vancouver]

People were questionning Yzerman's ability to bring a winner to Detroit, that after an impressive offensive record, but three Cups (including two back to back) shut everyone up. I don't think it was a coiincidence that once Bowman came on board that team was able to put everything together.

Last time I check, Redden hasn't one anything yet either.

So to reiterate your argument, are you saying that Montreal fans should just be patient and Koivu, Kovalev, et al. will eventually leads the Habs to the cup?

As for Redden, yes has not won a cup yet, but he is exactly the type this team needs. Guys who will do whatever it takes to win, and wear the CH with pride (a la Craig Rivet).

-Dave

Edited March 23, 2006 by Dave from Vancouver

[JMMR]

Only one Non-Canadian captain has ever won a Stanley Cup.

It was Derrian Hatcher with the Stars.

[HABBER-oooooKNOWS]

Maby you should look at the team around Saku in Finland and then re-think your statement. That is one sorry excuse for thinking the Habs will never win a cup with saku as a captain.

Now, I'm not giving up. The reason is this.

Gainey knows Saku doesn't have what he needs around him, but he does know he wants to build it with Saku.

All of our rookies are going to be amazing hockey players in the next couple of years. (i wish it was right now, but it's not)

A few deals this summer, growth from our rookies, a clean-up of unmotivated players, and we're going to be one dangerous team........Saku included...

Then you can stick this thread up your............well you know what I mean.

Sorry, the Habs have problems, but what your saying, isnot one of them.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Maby you should look at the team around Saku in Finland and then re-think your statement. That is one sorry excuse for thinking the Habs will never win a cup with saku as a captain.

Now, I'm not giving up. The reason is this.

Gainey knows Saku doesn't have what he needs around him, but he does know he wants to build it with Saku.

All of our rookies are going to be amazing hockey players in the next couple of years. (i wish it was right now, but it's not)

A few deals this summer, growth from our rookies, a clean-up of unmotivated players, and we're going to be one dangerous team........Saku included...

Then you can stick this thread up your............well you know what I mean.

Sorry, the Habs have problems, but what your saying, isnot one of them.

Ditto

[GoHabs2002]

So to reiterate your argument, are you saying that Montreal fans should just be patient and Koivu, Kovalev, et al. will eventually leads the Habs to the cup?

No, but I don't think letting our Captain leave just when the Franchise is turning around is a wise hockey decision. It's very under-rated how important a smooth transition from old group of players to a new group. Koivu, Rivet, Souray, represent that core players players who, once this team is set up to be successful, won't let anyone ###### it up. They will be the ones who have worked since '99 (the bottom of the decade-long pit) to get to this turnaround point.

Saku is our Captain. Why is it that when the things aren't going the way we want, most reactions are to trade the core players. Set up a core and build around it.

Leave Koivu go and hope Richards and/or Redden choose to sign with us. In Richards case, wait a year besides that and pray he doesn't sign with TB or gets traded and sign with his new team. Then we'd be back to where we are now, with only 1 legitamate top 2 center.

[JMMR]

The Bolts did not trade a core player at the deadline to acquire a goalie because they believe they can sign these guys. With the cap going up Richards may be able to be secured by the Bolts, I hope they are unable to but time will only tell.

As for Redden if the Sens do not sign him I would expect him to go out west closer to home.

[gohabsgo252006]

This thread is STUPID

winning a cup is not about the free agents you sign, but the young players you develop. We're well on our way to #25

Edited March 23, 2006 by gohabsgo252006

[Athlétique.Canadien]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that with our current core, this team will never win the Stanley Cup. And this is the line that makes me realize why:

8 GP

3 G

11 PTS

+5

Yes, those were Saku Koivu's stats during the Olympic games. And yet, this is a guy who hasn't scored an NHL goal since January 28...19 games ago! And he just recently signed a contract for how much? And this was supposed to motivate him to play better? Well, we're still waiting.

It is not a controversial statement to say that many European players would, if forced to choose, would rather win a Gold Medal than the Stanley Cup. Players like Mats Sundin readily admit this. Then really, it should come as no surprise that the captains of all the past Stanley Cup winning teams were either Canadian or American. Fans of the Canucks, Leafs, Panthers, Senators, Kings, and yes, Canadiens, don't hold your breath.

Some may find these words unfair to European players, but I am only stating the facts. European players can bring a very valuable aspect to the team (think Jagr in Pittsburgh, Kurri in Edmonton), but I would only want someone on the Habs if they understand the importance of being a Canadien and would be willing to do anything to win the Cup. This standard applies to any player, regardless of where they call home.

It really surprises me, especially in places like Montreal and Toronto, where fans practically live off the success of their team, that fans don't demand players that place winning the Stanley Cup at the top of their list. Given that these same players rake in millions of dollars annually, is this too hard to ask? Its all the more frustrating when you consider the legends of days gone by: Richard, Beliveau, Geoffrion, Lafleur, Plante, Blake...who did whatever it took to win the Cup...and worked a 2nd or 3rd job!!! These guys considered donning a Montreal jersey as a representation of an entire nation, be it the French Canadian nation, or even Canada as a whole. Something tells me guys like Bulis, Streit, and Kovalev, who just seem so opposed to skating hard every shift and getting their noses dirty, don't feel the same pride.

Montreal fans are often criticized for being too harsh on their team. Bogus! Since they have such a strong emotional attachment to their team (and pay the high ticket prices), it is their right to only expect the best, to expect players who value the 'CH' with all their heart. Unfortunately, not enough of the current Habs do.

So I'm taking bets that the Canadiens won't win the Cup for a while, especially after Gainey continues to foolishly toss money and over pay guys like Kovalev and Koivu. Why pay a guy (I'm talking Koivu here) who has never really done anything, both statistically and in terms of winning. We should have let him walk and then shown the money to guys like Richards and Redden (pay them and they will come). Maybe some are content with these 8th seed shenanigans, but I want to win a Cup, and to do so, you need winners.

-Dave

IMO: Koivu and Kovalev are 2 world class players who can also boast to be seasoned veterans. It doesn't matter who the GM is. They'd likely all agree that up front, and at their current age, they are a formidable nucleus to build around.

Montreal also has the rookies. They'll continue developing and I suspect we might have an at least one excellent sophmore out of the 3 next year. Look at Stall. After all, he's not a rookie. I'm not saying our rookies will become Stall but they will improve.

Insert Chipchura, Kostitsyn and (cross fingers) Latendresse. Montreal will also keep drafting under the watchful eye of Trevor Timmons, Andre Savard, Pierre Gauthier and of course Gainey.

And Montreal is not going to win in a while?

Montreal has I estimate 9.5 million to spend under the cap. That'll probably be willing to spend 4 to 6 of that to stay under cap and have wiggle room.

They'll be fine and Koivu and Kovalev represent the starting point.

PS. We need to draft a D

GO HABS GO :hlogo:

Edited March 23, 2006 by ATHLÉTIQUE.CANADIEN

[BTH]

Does it realy matter who's got a letter stitched to their sweater? If there's a Canadian leader on this team who can lead better than Saku then I'd love to see him lead. Right now it isn't happening.

PS: Kovalev and Bulis do play with heart (Kovalev not every game but if he's not playing he's still coaching his teammates) and even Streit is a leader. We've seen what Streit can do in Switzerland and he's a guy who talks a lot. And every player from Craig Rivet to Saku Koivu to Mike Ribeiro WANTS to win the Stanley Cup.

Our core is set and fine. If we got Richards and/or Redden then we'd be a great team next season and contenders the year after. Unless Gainey screws us up big time (I doubt it) then we're headed in the right direction.

[huzer]

I posted something similar in the "Are the Habs bland" thread regarding Euro players. I think the problem isn't that Saku is a captain, he's definitely got the heart for it, but the fact that he's really (IMO) a 2nd line C being asked to play on the 1st, and the Habs aren't talented enough on the wings.

[kaos]

People were questionning Yzerman's ability to bring a winner to Detroit, that after an impressive offensive record, but three Cups (including two back to back) shut everyone up. I don't think it was a coiincidence that once Bowman came on board that team was able to put everything together.

Last time I check, Redden hasn't one anything yet either.

Yeah this was before Detroit revamped their front office, scouting and coaching staffs and because the best in the league in those 3 areas. Yzerman was alone for alot of years in Motown, and what he did in the 1980's was simply unbelieveable. It was till the early 90's they started bringing in guys to help him, and look at that, they started winning.

Montreal is no where near the coaching or scouting capabilites of Detroit. Look at them, they haven't drafter higher than about 20th in the last decade or more, and yet they have far superior talent to this Canadiens team. Name anyone who can match up with Lidstrom, Datysuk, Zetterberg, Fisher and Kronwall.

Montreal has gotten better in the last 3 or 4 years, but has a long way to go.

[KoZed]

I posted something similar in the "Are the Habs bland" thread regarding Euro players. I think the problem isn't that Saku is a captain, he's definitely got the heart for it, but the fact that he's really (IMO) a 2nd line C being asked to play on the 1st, and the Habs aren't talented enough on the wings.

I think that's the most accurate statement so far.

Saku's a nifty little center, but not a #1 C, not by today's standards. Too much is asked of him offensively, so it hurts his credibility as a Captain because he's not the loud-mouth type, not the gritty-grinding-warrior type, not the experienced-I-scored-on-Chico-Resh type, he's the leading-by-example type. And its hard to lead by example when you're not putting up points on the board on a consistent basis.

[kaos]

I think that's the most accurate statement so far.

Saku's a nifty little center, but not a #1 C, not by today's standards. Too much is asked of him offensively,

But he's being paid like a #1 center, thats why people are so upset!!!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The whole logic of this thread is defective. There's a huge difference between producing at peak level over an entire season and revving it up for a crucial championship or playoff series. Saku does NOT want to win Gold more than he wants to win the Cup; his incredible playoff play, whenever the Habs DO make the dance, proves that. Last year he outplayed Thornton despite a massive size differential AND bruised lung and ribs and whatnot. The thing is, a player of Saku's size and fragility will never put together 80 great games in a row; especially when he doesn't have the depth around him to take the heat off (a bona fide second line C would help). He is a player who ups his game in tournament environments when everything is on the line. What more do you want.

On a really strong team, Saks is a 1A centreman - but find me a team that wouldn't love to have him.

[PB]

Dave, contrary to your perception, I consider Gainey's obtention of Kovalev and his late signing

of Koivu to have been no brainers and absolutly relevant to the CH's requirement in

both situation.

Good GMs based their decision on CONTEXT when they make decisions,....not on some

debatable guesswork or idealistic notion.

The CH absolutly needed to aquired a hight quality winger from the last inter-season,.....you just

have to realise what this season would have look like without one,.....but maybe you cant *#&??

Wingers of that ilk ( Palffy, Satan, Demitra, etc..) that where avalaible during the inter-season

all came at the same price so your assertion on Kovalev being over-priced is a

silly proposition.

We are lucky that we had one signing here at all,....and lets give all the credits to Gainey

for that one......as without Kovalev's obtention by Gainey from NY the

previous season.....we might have ended-up dry,..plain and simple.

Kovalev is a 230 pounds marvel that the CH needed, so did the fans and even more so the rockies,...

most of his tremendous skills are the results of how he practices.....having him around for 4 years

could easily be the best investment in youth developpement the CH could ever come up with.

Signing Koivu was simple.....is our best center.

Gainey MIGHT POSSIBLY BE ABLE to sign in a desirable quality center that happen to be elligible

on the UFA market one day.....but he cannot plan on an eventuallity on which he has no

control over.

Letting go of our best center without an insurance of a better and IMMEDIATE replacement is an

irrationnal proposition that is not serious at all.

Edited March 24, 2006 by PB

[CoRvInA]

I will agree with many of you here and to pinpoint it to what Dave has argued here are some key points to take in consideration

1) Koivu.... we must agree that any team would pick him up!! ... Now is he paid too much ??/ I think he's earned that perhaps extra 500k for sticking to MTL! (whatever the reason)... I personally believe he's still underpayed But thats not for discussion

2) Kovalev signed and at a fair price! Selanne is playing as well if not better than Kovy right now and could probably be had for 3 Mil next season. You guys know how I have wet dreams of Selanne and Koivu playing on the same line!... But back to Kovalev's up and downs.

As long as he knows he will give a playoff show like HE DID two years ago) then yes, by all means slack off a bit or float a bit, save some energy and stay healthy for when the push comes to shoving ... You have to be on Steroids and drugs or an 19yr old thats is guaranteed to not make the playoffs (Ovechkin) to be able to give it your all 200% night after night for 82 games.

YES NOW Were Not in the Playoffs... But the lets dream!!!

As for for Players bleeding Bleu Blanc Rouge... They could be from Mars for all I (we) care ... Koivu might not be the most expressive player to ever wear the saint flanelle but I (we) trust he is a believer!

More Canadian players? like Peca for example who wants to go home to (NY) says family wants are as important than what he wants! yeah??!!

Back in the 50' til 80s Boomer, Rocket Lafleur etc used to beat up their wives and leave their kids rotting in the streets the TEAM was more important! (joking)

Today its another reality....What were dreaming off is gone! the world of professional hockey has changed! some say even the age of Dynsaties are over too!! But Players that will want to wear the CH will still be out there!

Mario Lemieux was a big eye opener for me... I was sure he would play at least for one year in the team he grew up loving! would that have happened 40 years ago? Today lets count our blessings and Koivu is one of them! if Lecavalier or Richards or Redden comes and plays for us then so be it...if the team wants them to wear the C then so be it! for Now the team feels Koivu is the Leader and that's what counts!

Lets build a team from the ground up For that we need foundation! Koivu is central in making the cement Stick and DRY!

[JMMR]

Great post Corvina.

Although I would like to see a few more Canadian players on this roster.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Remember Koivu lead the league in the last playoffs in points. (until we were knocked out)

His play at the olympics.....

The guy knows how to bring it when the big games are on.

I still say he is underrated

[kaos]

The whole logic of this thread is defective. There's a huge difference between producing at peak level over an entire season and revving it up for a crucial championship or playoff series. Saku does NOT want to win Gold more than he wants to win the Cup; his incredible playoff play, whenever the Habs DO make the dance, proves that. Last year he outplayed Thornton despite a massive size differential AND bruised lung and ribs and whatnot. The thing is, a player of Saku's size and fragility will never put together 80 great games in a row; especially when he doesn't have the depth around him to take the heat off (a bona fide second line C would help). He is a player who ups his game in tournament environments when everything is on the line. What more do you want.

On a really strong team, Saks is a 1A centreman - but find me a team that wouldn't love to have him.

Your whole statement is defective. The only reason Koivu outplayed Thornton, was because of Thornton's torn cartilledge in his rib cage. The guy could barely play, but he was out there giving it his all.

Otherwise, Boston probably would have won that series

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

1. Saku also beat your supposedly unsurpassable hero Joe Thornton when they played in 2002 AND

2. Saku was ALSO fighting through very serious injuries in 2004 and STILL he made Thornton look useless.

Sak's playoff track-record speaks for itself. The man consistently overachieves when it counts. Gimme a break.

[kaos]

1. Saku also beat your supposedly unsurpassable hero Joe Thornton when they played in 2002 AND

2. Saku was ALSO fighting through very serious injuries in 2004 and STILL he made Thornton look useless.

Sak's playoff track-record speaks for itself. The man consistently overachieves when it counts. Gimme a break.

Well its couting a whole big bunch right now and where's Koivu's contribution? Yeah no goals in 19 games and counting. Oh and Saku has played what??? Maybe 40 NHL playoff games and the Habs have won nothing but two playoff series in his 9 or 10 NHL seasons. Not exactly something to write home about.

Give me a break.

[gohabsgo252006]

Your whole statement is defective. The only reason Koivu outplayed Thornton, was because of Thornton's torn cartilledge in his rib cage. The guy could barely play, but he was out there giving it his all.

Otherwise, Boston probably would have won that series

Actually, Saku had the same injury as Thornton at that time. Howver, nobody made a big deal about it, because he wasn't completely shutout in that series.

[C-Love]

At least Saku has taken Montreal to the second round, which is a lot more than Thornton has done in Boston and I'm sure he'll continue that streak in San Jose. Not to mention the fact that Boston had some pretty talented teams over the years that were expected to do well. I can't remember one season since Saku has been in Montreal where we were projected to get get out of the first round, hell most seasons we weren't expected to make the playoffs. Saku is a big time player when it counts, and that will continue this playoffs, but he can only do so much, he's just one guy on a team.