Jump to content

Why Is Quebec So Crazy About Language


Pierre the Great

Recommended Posts

Meh. DDO merged than demerged than decided to merge again or something. I don't think we're considered Montreal at the moment.

He he. This whole merger/demerger mess is the perfect example of why I think that a positive referendum in Quebec should require significantly more than simply 50% + 1 vote, as well as a high participation rate. Some people speak about this issue like it was simply a matter of putting up or not a stop sign at the on a street corder; we are talking about a major political or societal change that will possibly have major repercussions on both Quebec citizens, and the rest of Canada. If we're going to do this, we must make sure that it is really the will of a large majority... especially since people already voted "no" twice, the last time being only 10 years ago (which is nothing on the timeline of history).

What's funny is that people who advocate that 50% + 1 is sufficient say that we must respect the majority, even if very slim, although in a way, they're not respecting the will who the majority that voted no not so long ago.

Edited by CerebusClone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I fear that a 50.00000001 majority for the referendum would cause

Mass Chaos

Factions Uprising

Martial Law

Civil War

That might be a tad exagerated... but if we win by small a small margin, and go through all the trouble required to officially seperate, what would prevent another political party at power to do another referendum, this time to re-integrate Canada? And then what if they win by a very small margin? Would we constantly be seperating/reintegrating Canada (or the USA, or France)? That would not be very serious, in addition to being extremely expensive, and making "Quebec" look extremely unstable on the international stage.

If it is really the will of the Quebec citizens to seperate, then fine... but we have to make them sure that it is legitimate, and not just some temporary anti-Charest feelings (I was just at the SAAQ, and some very loud bit** was pretty much blaming Charest for the long wait time - he he he, I was served and out of there in about 10 minutes), some temporary ill post-sponsorship scandal feelings towards the Canadian governement, or any other temporary feelings that might change the next week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats what I'm been saying to seperatists when I get into arguements with them.

The fact is that Montreal has always been 'federalist' and if the PQ people win by .1% then good god you've in a sense said too bad Montreal you're going with us. Then there is this grey period where the areas that didn't vote for the referendum could theoretically say no we're staying in Canada. Then what do they do? Say No, No, you're coming with us?

What would then end up happending is like you said a Sienn Fien Party (IRA's Political wing) party would come together where there soul purpose would be to bring Quebec back into the fold.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Boy. that question is one of the most explosive you can ask...

Its a valid one but don't stress too much if you get impulsive reactions!

:D

The whole thing starts over 300 years ago really... You have to understand that France used to dominate a large part of North America (the first map is around 1743 I believe... no garantee though!)

The whole lot was given to england by France in 1763 in the Traité de Paris, following the conclusion of the 7 years war.

A few years before, in 1759, a english general, Wolfe, beat the french Montcalm at quebec. This event, called "The Conquest" (La Conquête) by some and "The Defeat" (La défaite) by others, is usually used to symbolise english domination over french territories in north america.

Of course, it is a bit simplistic because the english already deported and assasinated a large part of another north american french nation in 1755, Acadia (L'acadie), of which england gained possesion in 1713. According to some, Acadia was a lot more prosper than the quebec province at the time and better established. They are the ancestors of Louisiana's Cajuns (A deformation of Acadians... by way of Acadjuns, cadjuns, Cajuns...).

Ok... back to the main topic...

If I remember correctly, 1763 marks the start of the american "war of independance". I once heard that england was very worried that the old "nouvelle france" would be interested to join the emerging american nation. I think you guys tried to seduce and/or invade us but it didn't work.

Pressured by the american revolt, England decided to try to convince us to stay with them by letting us practice our Catholic faith without interruption (they were protestan). This is very important because it is mainly by holding to our catholic "roots" that we would be keeping our language.

In 1791, canada is divided in 2 parts, "lower canada" (mainly french) and "higher canada" (english). Our southern neighours are now a new nation (the united states of america). Canada's population is bolstered by a large number of english loyalists.

End of the "history lesson".

As a people, french canadians always made an effort to establish their unique identity. Under french domination, we were "habitant" (translated "inhabitants") to france's paysans (meaning we were owners of the lands... and not subserviant), with the english, we became "Canadiens" (pronounced Canayens! by old people)to their "English". When the inhabitants of canada became "Canadiens", we were "Canadiens francais". I guess Quebecer is a reaction to the possibility of being "canadiens francais" and federalist...

It is said that the Catholic faith has a lot to do with us staying french all that time. French canadians stayed devout a long time. Going to church was a major activity and helped us stay in contact.

In terms of social status, most french canadiens were into agriculture. Money and big business were mostly controlled by english and american interests. Montreal was still a big business center, and a strong clivage between rich english/poor french canadiens soon made itself felt. (please note that it is a generalization... there were surely rich french canadien families, but the "majority" were english controled interest.)

My father was under the obligation to speak english in the workplace. The reason was that many of the bosses did not speak french. To speak french could make you loose your job. Things were this harsh.

To be reach higher education, you either had to have money or wanted to be part of the church.

There were a lot of repressions during this period and a lot of us "french canadiens" are still sensible about the subject. We did not live it but it is close enough for our father's generation to tell us how it was.

This status ended around 1960. This period is called "the quiet revolution". The school system was taken over by the state (it was a responsability of the catholic church before), education became obligatory, laws were introduced to quell english dominion, people stopped looking at the church for guidance, business became more open to french canadiens...

Right now montreal is the biggest urban community in quebec. It is divided in two: west and east. In the west island, it is perfectly possible to live in perfect english. Outside montreal's boundary, english is a bit rarer (except at places close to the US border) and you might have some difficulty to find someone who speak english without accent.

To us, language is more than a "code". Its an identity. It is something that makes us different and unique from our neighbours. It has been a way to mark us as "different", if not "lesser", for about 200 years. It is now, since 40 years or so, a matter of pride.

We have a healthy and lively french canadian culture, french canadian radio and tv, french canadian movies, french canadian theatre, french canadian publishing industry... we have our own star system.

We are not that religious anymore. Hardships brought on us by the catholic church has made us skeptic at best where religion is concerned. I guess (and that is a wild wild extrapolation!!) that language has taken a bit of the space that was filled with catholism in terms of identity.

In many ways, we carry the burden of close to 300 years of devout catholic pathos. We value humility, a large part of us are wary of wealth, we can be provincial at times.

But we are peacefull and, if our latin blood makes us sometimes mercurial and loud, we are not prone to fight or revolt that easilly.

Remember, we were 49.6% to vote yes to 1995's referendum. 1.4% more votes and we would have a clear mandate for separation.

Well, 1.4% wasn't enough and we did not revolt, we did not cause violence. We accepted it like civilized men.

I'll bring up another post about the montreal canadiens. I wrote it some time ago to speak my mind about the koivu incident. But I think this post is a good primer to understand our concern for french in quebec.

Edited by Capt.Crunch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a text I did on another discussion board following Koivu's incident. I did it late at night and it might prove a bit "passionate" but I think it provides another view of things.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll take the other side of the argument.

But, first and foremost, we can all agree that it was not the time, not the place and certainly not the right way to approach the subject.

To add insult to injury, the question was asked by a complete outsider who wanted to create an interesting story.

There. That's what I think about Friday's story.

However, since this occasion is used by most to rehash old arguments, I'll use this opportunity to present another opinion.

Most people you will meet in Montreal will know about the Montreal Canadiens. You should not be surprised to hear your 40 year old waitress start a conversation and have an opinion on whether Souray should be traded or not during the playoffs.

Hockey in Montreal is much more than a madonna concert, a baseball game or F1.

Les Canadiens de Montréal are MY team. Just as they were my father's team and my grandfather's team.

Les Canadiens de Montréal used to be a tradition, a Saturday night event. You used to look at the games on tv with your father, hear about it in family reunions.

I used to wonder, as a little boy, at that no 10 that was streaking without helmet in the offensive zone.

I remember the stories told to me by my father, who doesn't watch hockey anymore BTW. Stories about my grandmother wanting to do something about Richard's suspension in 55. The only way she found of protesting is to stop buying Campbell soup for a few years.

You see, they are MY team. They are not a generic concession who is looking at a big left handed center. They are part of my past. As a French Canadian. As a Quebecker.

To my knowledge, the Habs had a lot of things going for them before 1969. They had the C formula, the famous "Formule C", used to acquire players at an incredibly young age in a quasi-permanent fashion.

They had a series of farm clubs, in which they could stack boatloads of talent who were only waiting for a chance to play in the big leagues.

They also had a tremendous network of French Canadien volunteers working for them throughout the province of Quebec. At a time when information was at a premium, they had a whole province ready to talk to them about promising young guys.

I think Ken Dryden, in his book "The Game" describe the fall of the habs last Dynaty best:

"Most of what has happened these past twenty-five seasons I couldn't have guessed. I knew that the dominance of the Canadiens would diminish. Nobody could sustain the pace of fifteen Stanley Cups in twenty-four years. Pollock and Bowman were gone. The farm system had been built during a sponsorship time when teams could sign up kids almost at birth, and when every Canadian kid wanted to play for the Canadiens or Leafs, and when every non-Canadian kid, every American or European, didn't matter. When sponsorship ended in 1969 and a universal draft of players forced kids to play with whichever team chose them, the Canadiens had enough players already in their system to trade their surplus for future draft picks to teams desperate to compete and survive. But by 1979 all that was coming to an end. The next generation of great players was getting spread around. Denis Potvin, Brian Trottier and Mike Bossy had all gone to the Islanders. Wayne Gretzky and Mark Messier were in the WHA. The Canadiens had been reduced finally to equal ground, and while equal ground, with proper care, might produce good teams, it won't generate domination"

So? Where are we now?

A standard team in a standard league? A product like Coke or McDonald's? A brand name with its history resumed to a nice, shiny selling point?

You think Montreal is that crazy about hockey because its simply "cultural"? Is it only a phenomenon? Like poutine?

You guys really think it's to be taken for granted? That its not going to die off if properly cultivated?

While I have a particular interest in hockey, in young up-and-coming players, in systems, in the strength of particular teams, I can assure you that my family, my friends, my boss, citizens not immersed in hockey like I am become hockey fans again in spring because of "Les Canadiens", and Lafleur, and Carbonneau, and Roy, and Richard, and Béliveau.

Its one of the few times in the year when you can yell on a bus between 7 and 10 on a Saturday night with a walkman on and, instead of receiving glares, you will only get a single, repetitive question:

"So? What's the score?"

But what can we do about it?

The entry draft, free agency seem to condemn us to uniformity, doesn't it?

Well, you could start by having scouts who cover the province of Quebec like the times of old. You could start by knowing about every single goddamned player in your own backyard.

You could start by listening to home grown free agents, guys like Ian Lapperière, who would have killed to have a shot to play for the "Bleu, blanc, rouge".

You could, at least, make an effort to go and get a few guys who grew here. Who get it. Who remember what a spring in Montreal means when the habs are in the playoff.

It has been reported that Dandenault, Bégin and Bouillon were close to tears after game 7 against the Hurricane.

Did it matter as much to Kovalev, Zednik and Bulis?

I am not saying that you cannot care about your team is you are a European. You can learn to care. Just as Mario Lemieux did with the Penguins, just as Denis Savard did with the Blackhawks and Luc Robitaille with the Kings.

But if you want to really rise above the lot, to anchor yourself in the tradition and history, it is my belief that you must take Gainey's route: you must learn a bit of french.

Is Koivu a leader on the ice? You bet. Do people respect him? Immensely. Is he the best center in the Canadien's lineup? Yes.

But to go beyond that, to be part of the legend, to be as big a star in Montreal than in Finland, as the captain of "Les Canadiens", he must at least learn to say "Bonjour" and "Bonsoir".

We don't ask for much. Most of us are perfectly proficient in the english language. We switch more often than not in english if we see that you have trouble speaking french.

However, as garbled your french sentenced came to be, you will have our profound admiration because, at least, you tried.

Is the Canadiens a simple logo owned by the Gillett group and the NHL?

Maybe.

But we have to be careful. The end of the Dynasty was less than 30 odd years ago. Evacuate the french content of "Les Canadiens de montreal" at your own risk.

The danger is not that I stop going to games. The danger is that I might stop going to games with my son and that I forget to tell him the story of his great-grandmother who wanted to punish Clarence Campbell by refusing to buy Cambell soup. That I forget to tell the story of little people who cared so very much but could do so little.

The danger is that I stop complaining about the french representation in the habs lineup and that I listen to hockey like I listen to other sports. As a product to be bought, consummed and thrown away.

We b!tch and moan about this situation because we still care.

Trust me, the worst thing that can happen to a franchise is indifference.

Ask the Expos...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But we are peacefull and, if our latin blood makes us sometimes mercurial and loud, we are not prone to

Remember, we were 49.6% to vote yes to 1995's referendum. 1.4% more votes and we would have a clear mandate for separation.

Well, 1.4% wasn't enough and we did not revolt, we did not cause violence. We accepted it like civilized men.

Nice history lesson. I especially like that it is mostly free of seperatist propaganda; it is nice to hear some clear and thoughful comments from someone in favor of Quebec seperation since unfortunately you seem to be an exception.

I would like to hear your opinions on the "clear" mandate issue. You seem to believe that 51% of the votes would consider a clear mandate for Quebec seperation that I guess you feel all Quebec citizens and the rest of Canada should respect; this is a valid opinion, and I respect it. However, on the other side of the coin, why wouldn't the actual results of the 2 referendums constitute a clear mandate NOT to separate?

The people in Quebec have already voted twice to remain a Canadian province. However, the separatist movement does not seem to accept these results, and continues to pursue their goal; this by itself does not really bother me since seperatists are allowed to fight for what they belive in (although I would really prefer that at some point we finally put this issue behind us, one way or another, so that we can move forward together). However, I have an issue with the fact that the seperatist movement believes that even a 1 vote majority is sufficient ro represent the will of the population, and that it should be considered "final", while they didn't respect all previous votes.

Especially with the currently very low level of satisfaction towards the Charest government, and the sponsorship scandal that made the federal governement look like a bunch of crooks, it seemed that seperatists wanted to use that negative federal image to quickly force a referendum hoping that a "positive" result would just barely squeak with a very slim margin... and they would feel that this was sufficient to force major political and societal changes!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...