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Afghanistan-strategic Counsel Says 54% Want Canada Out


Athlétique.Canadien

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This is the real reason why we need to bring peace and not more killing to Afghanistan

Iraq war worsens threat of terror, spy agencies say

PAUL KORING

From Monday's Globe and Mail

WASHINGTON — The U.S.-led war in Iraq has enflamed the Muslim world, spawned a new generation of jihadists and fuelled terrorism rather than throttling it, according to elements of a highly classified intelligence report leaked Sunday.

The White House said the leaked and partial accounts failed to reflect the main thrust of the document, a National Intelligence Estimate drawn from 16 American spy agencies. But officials didn't deny the import of what was published.

"The Iraq war has made the overall terrorism problem worse," one intelligence official was quoted as saying by The New York Times, which published some of the broad conclusions of the still-secret report, "Trends in Global Terrorism."

U.S. President George W. Bush has vigorously defended his decision to attack Iraq and topple Saddam Hussein, despite the subsequent absence of the outlawed chemical, biological and nuclear weapons that underpinned the original justification for waging war.

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Yeah...we were all getting along SOOOO well before that...if...

Is anyone really suprised about this. Bush lied to the world...

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Throughout the subsequent insurgency and worsening sectarian strife, Mr. Bush has insisted that the war and occupation were justified and vital as the "central front" in the "war on global terrorism."

Democrats have grown increasingly critical of the President's policies in Iraq. The House Democratic leader, Nancy Pelosi of California, said that news reports about the intelligence estimate are "further proof that the war in Iraq is making it harder for America to fight and win the war on terror."

Her Senate Democratic counterpart, Harry Reid of Nevada, said "no election-year White House P.R. campaign can hide this truth -- it is crystal clear that America's security demands we change course in Iraq."

However, Democrats are loathe to make Iraq and the struggle against Islamic extremism the pivotal issue in this fall's election campaign. Despite Mr. Bush's low approval ratings and the increasing majority of Americans voicing doubts about Iraq, the party cannot agree on a coherent alternative policy.

Yesterday, some Republicans used the report to shore up the President's insistence that quitting Iraq would be a huge mistake, even as they decried the leak.

"There's nothing secret in our nation's capital," lamented Arizona Republican Senator John McCain, a staunch backer of Mr. Bush's "stay the course" policy.

"The benefits of success [in Iraq] are enormous, and the consequences of failure are enormous," Mr. McCain said, adding that the slower-than-hoped-for pace of success in Iraq may be encouraging the terrorists.

According to The Times, the assessment concludes that self-generating Islamic extremist cells are proliferating around the world -- possibly inspired by al-Qaeda but not directly linked to the organization. The report says the long, bloody war in Iraq, coupled with reports of U.S. atrocities and allegations of torture and ill-treatment at Guantanamo Bay and other prisons, has fomented Islamic radicalism.

Massachusetts Senator Edward Kennedy, one of the few who questioned the need to attack Iraq before the invasion, said the report "should put the final nail in the coffin for President Bush's phony argument about the Iraq war."

In a rare attack on Mr. Bush's handling of the conflict since the terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, former president Bill Clinton rejected accusations that he failed to chase down Osama bin Laden. Rather, he said in interviews yesterday, it was Mr. Bush who "did nothing" for eight months after taking office.

A National Intelligence Estimate is considered the premier product of all of the myriad spy agencies. One completed before the Iraq war concluded that Mr. Hussein was hiding and developing outlawed weapons of mass destruction. It proved to be wrong.

The latest report on the trend in Islamic extremism was apparently completed in April. Richard Holbrooke, formerly Mr. Clinton's ambassador to the United Nations, said it confirms what many have said for a long time -- that Iraq wasn't originally where the terrorists were.

"The 9/11 terrorists didn't come from Iraq, but Iraq has become a breeding ground for terrorists. It's increased anti-Americanism around the world. It's contributed to other crises. It's strengthened Iran," he said.

With a report from New York Times

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This is the real reason why we need to bring peace and not more killing to Afghanistan

Iraq war worsens threat of terror, spy agencies say......With a report from New York Times

Actually, NATO is examining how to stop the poppy harvest by offering alternative or legitimate crops to farmers and also allowing the opium to be sold to legitimate pharmaceutical companies. Unfortunately it will take years to accomplish. But, it's a good idea and actually the 1st one that might solve the problem.

I was glad to hear that this is being examined. Finally, an answer.

I'm in disagreement though. I agree with the article and I believe Iraq is a mess. But, we are talking about a different country here.

This war is nothing short of frustrating. Sort of like fighting the weather. But, to pull out and let al Qaeda to make Afghanistan their playground again is worse than staying. What we need to do is shift the focus to infrastructure and building the nation. But, that cannot happen until the Taliban are dealt with.

Sorry to disagree, but that's politics for ya :)

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The insurgency in Afghanistan is only around because of Iraq. They saw how car bombs and suicide attacks work in Iraq and the Taliban started doing it in Afghanistan.

Second, the opium problem. Just burning land by force only pushes people to the other side.

I'm more disturbed that Karzi brought back the moral police in Kabul. Women now are being told that they aren't covered enough and men are being told that there beards aren't trim. Why bring back a form of oppression back?

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That's just it though. People are continually asking for Canada to go back to its traditional role of peacekeeper. What NATO has suggested will help the nation grow agriculture while also providing a subsidy and the farmers who grow opium could then supply the world with opium for legitimate pain medications. This is helping to build infrastructure in the country and it aligns us with our traditional role at the same time.

This is the solution I have been waiting for. It's much better than the UN's idea that the crops need to be destroyed. All that will do is turn the farmers into Taliban fighters.

If the world turns its back on Afghanistan it'll be worse than ever. We must stay the course and find a solution.

Funny thing about this thread is that no matter how much we write, we are never going to agree or convince each other. I'll say it all day and night. We must stay. I'm going to hold that opinion regardless of whatever challenge you or others have. Just the same as it is futile for me to try to convince others.

Thread goes to eternity...

Edited by ATHLÉTIQUE.CANADIEN
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Actually, NATO is examining how to stop the poppy harvest by offering alternative or legitimate crops to farmers and also allowing the opium to be sold to legitimate pharmaceutical companies. Unfortunately it will take years to accomplish. But, it's a good idea and actually the 1st one that might solve the problem.

I was glad to hear that this is being examined. Finally, an answer.

I'm in disagreement though. I agree with the article and I believe Iraq is a mess. But, we are talking about a different country here.

This war is nothing short of frustrating. Sort of like fighting the weather. But, to pull out and let al Qaeda to make Afghanistan their playground again is worse than staying. What we need to do is shift the focus to infrastructure and building the nation. But, that cannot happen until the Taliban are dealt with.

Sorry to disagree, but that's politics for ya :)

Actually, you are agreeing with me :-) I argued on another thread that the invasion of Iraq was a mistake because it left the Afghan mission unfinished and allowed the Taliban to creep back in. Ironically, the Taliban used to prohibit the growing of opium as un-Islamic but they have been ifluenced by the Jihaidists in Iraq and now see any method of regaining power as halal (legal). Pierre TG mentions some of this in his posts as well

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My views of Afghanistan are american ones. If the US hadn't invaded Iraq, Afghanistan would be a different place. The US dropped the ball. From my point of view Afghanistan is the US's problem now because the rest of the countries have continued to do what they had been doing before the Iraq invasion. Meanwhile the US is leaving.

Things aren't going to change until Bush leaves. He's a dictator in a form of policy its either his way or no way. Even if its a flawed and failed idea which was never really planned out.

I support the NDP's decision to push for remove and reorganizing of troops because its the World in this case is like the rehab centre. And the US is the druggie. If the druggie doesn't want help then you can't give it to him or her.

The White House refuses to say they messed up, had the wrong plan, and never followed through. There stubborness is causing the the other countries to re think why they are there.

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My views of Afghanistan are american ones. If the US hadn't invaded Iraq, Afghanistan would be a different place. The US dropped the ball. From my point of view Afghanistan is the US's problem now because the rest of the countries have continued to do what they had been doing before the Iraq invasion. Meanwhile the US is leaving.

Things aren't going to change until Bush leaves. He's a dictator in a form of policy its either his way or no way. Even if its a flawed and failed idea which was never really planned out.

I support the NDP's decision to push for remove and reorganizing of troops because its the World in this case is like the rehab centre. And the US is the druggie. If the druggie doesn't want help then you can't give it to him or her.

The White House refuses to say they messed up, had the wrong plan, and never followed through. There stubborness is causing the the other countries to re think why they are there.

You should be happy. Soon he'll be called Veto Bush. :P

The clock is ticking

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Unless his name is McCain. Then its more of the same.

That's because McCain is a liberal in conservative clothes. At least, that's how he seems to me.

Funny thing about this thread is that no matter how much we write, we are never going to agree or convince each other. I'll say it all day and night. We must stay. I'm going to hold that opinion regardless of whatever challenge you or others have. Just the same as it is futile for me to try to convince others.

Thread goes to eternity...

Haha, I've often thought the same thing. Yet here we are, posting away, haha. Yet in the back of my mind, I keep hoping what I say here will put a kernel of new perspective in someone else's mind. For me, these threads do help me look deeper at my beliefs and really put them to the test.

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LOL McCain a liberal. yeah right and pigs can fly.

I really want Rudy to run because he would easily split the republican party into what the republican party was and truely stands for: social liberal/economic conservatives and a religious righteous folks who want the seperation of church and state to disappear.

lol.

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  • 11 months later...

Well, here we are after all this time I thought I would resurrect this thread to give my new opinion on this war.

I have to say that I am a very proud Canadian as far as this struggle goes. I'm not proud that we are involved and this pride doesn't reflect the war but rather the effort that our men and women in uniform have displayed in Afghanistan.

Time is running out for Canada. This war is now becoming a strain on all of us. Whether it be Canada's budget concerns or whether it be concern over us being involved in a messy business. War is a very messy business indeed. I for one am growing weary of this war now.

I am glad that to some significant degree that we are helping to restore infrastructure to Afghanistan. If only we had a chance to sustain the growth, that would be better.

Which brings me to the subject that annoys me. That is, NATO and NATO member countries who believe that we need to pull up our socks and be better contributors to NATO. I am getting fed up with their incorrect opinion that we are war dodgers. During the 1990's and using Bosnia as a specific example, it was Canada who had a major significant effort to help in that region. As a matter of fact, Canada was one of the front runners and providers of military support during that horrible crisis. A tremendous commitment was made and fulfilled in Europe and yet for some reason the effort was and still is totally lost on NATO member countries.

I have lost all patience and have no time for the current U.S. administration. Why spend billions on a war that is a disaster (Iraq) whilst paying for trillions in a tax cut from a loan by the Chinese? It's becoming quite clear that China and Russia are now taking advantage of the Iraq war and are now excelling their efforts to conduct spying and to undermine the U.S. globally as a major power. The U.S. cannot sustain domestic law enforcement and are failing the grade in preventing espionage from China and Russia. And, for what? So they can prevent al-Qaida from getting control of Iraq? To prevent the Iranians from undermining the region? Seems to me before the war began, the Iranians and-Qaida were non factors in Iraq. To make matters worse, what would stop the Chinese from selling the U.S. debt on the market? The U.S. dollar is dying slowly. This whole thing is a mess.

Now, I know you may be asking, what does this have to do with Afghanistan? Simple, what would Afghanistan look like today had the U.S. put all their resourses and effort into Afghanistan instead of Iraq. The answer is simple. The Afghan-Pakistan region would be far far more stable. The Taliban would be a dead issue and perhaps bin Laden would have been captured.

But, nevermind Osama. Nevermind the Russians. Nevermind Afghanistan. Nevermind the Chinese. Instead give a 10 minute rant on Korea. It's Haliburton that is important and nothing else matters. Even if it means that the U.S. is succeeding in undermining its own power in the world?

This is the crux of the issue. To those who do not support the effort, I am coming over to your point of view. If other NATO countries are not interested in providing more support, don't come crying when we have to withdraw.

Bush, what have you done? A proxy war no less. Sound familiar?

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What I find about NATO countries bitching is

A: If Germany bitches I laugh, Germany is only in the North they won't even step a foot south of Kabul

B: America. Honestly they're idiots. They didn't go after the guy they said they'd catch, they stopped and then ditched everyone in Afghanistan for their own death wish (which is what the war on terrorism is you can't beat an ideology people you can't win this, its a death wish) in Iraq and then eventually it was going to be Iran and then Syria. (why else would he not name them axis of evil and the countries were all in a row.) He was going to start another crusade of imperialism turn the muslim world secular. lol The man is a pyscho path he belongs in a mental institution. He is just as bad as Saddam was when he woke up in the morning dreaming of Iraq conquering Israel. He instead wakes up every morning dreaming about conquering all of the middle east. The man is insane.

C: Anyone who goes along with him at the moment needs a to cheque into a medical facility.

Freaking stop the madness people you aren't going to defeat the taliban. Yes we all know they are bad, but look at South Korea. We can do something here with Kabul and the North.

We can't do a power sharing agreement like Northern Ireland because we are nowhere near that phase. Taliban will never put down there guns. Only option is a South Korea and we must do it fast before the Taliban starts focusing on Kabul and then everything in Afghanistan is lost.

D: The Canadian Right and Centre calling Jack Layton Taliban Jack. Looks like Jack will get the last laugh. Who was right? Oh that's right Jack Layton.

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I should add to the U.S. posters on here, this is not an indictment of the U.S. But moreso the current administration. Also, I realize that it's not just the U.S. in NATO that is annoying right now. I'm not too keen with the French either (France).

Anyway, now to make matters worse, Bin Laden declares 'war' on Musharraf. Now, many don't like Musharraf becasue of his lack of diligence in securing womens rights but Musharraf is "the devil you know". The world doesn't want to see "the devil you don't know" in Pakistan. Bin Laden is taking this to a new level. If Pakistan is weakened and becomes unstable, the world might be in big trouble.

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/258652

Edited by Athlétique.Canadien
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And who's fault is that? US

I seem to remember somebody threatening nukes on a certain someone if they didn't go along.

black mail a special US trait.

What happens if a new tyrant gets in Pakistan? If we have the threat of a nuclear escalation over the issue of Kashmir with India it could escalate and get out of control. That's what I see Bin Laden trying to achieve. He's even leaning on Darfur. Osama's game = create as much instability as possible.

This is getting out of hand.

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Nobody is going to a-bomb BC. If something bad happens I'll just move to the hinterland and find a cave.

A cave probably won't be far enough away if the madness is realized.

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