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Athlétique.Canadien

Afghanistan-strategic Counsel Says 54% Want Canada Out

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Toronto Star: PM gets angry Afghan mail

Now I'm asking for it. My opinion on Afghanistan does not lie in the 54% range. This whole mess about us not being supportive is really annoying me.

First of all, nothing could be worse for our troops than having support plummet at home. What could be worse than Taliban fighters watching Canadian TV? They're not stupid. When the enemy smells lack of resolve on the other, that's when it shall strike! They see the change in attitude and think, "The Canadian's are not our biggest enemy, but they do possess a formidable backbone of support to the US and Britain. I notice their people are losing stomach for the war. Now's our chance. Target Canadian's with suicide bombers. I want more body bags going home".

But, we have our free media and that stuff is going to get out anyway. So, what do we do?

Well, I for one support this war for the time being. The whole thing sickens me as much as anyone. Last Thursday was a dark day for our country. But, I can't get away from the simple fact that we must contribute to freedom, some where and some way.

Another subject that has me steaming is this ridiculous notion that we go back to our peacekeeping model. Peacekeeping is a wonderful thing but it has no place in Iraq, Afghanistan or over in Lebanon and Israel. If these ideas would even have a chance at working it would have happened a long time ago. Also, how can you keep the peace when there is not a peace to keep?

I would like to see us get more into peacekeping again in areas like Darfur, but that doesn't take away from our obligations to Afghanistan either.

We live in a country with human rights; the Code of Hammurabi, Magna Carta, the Constitution of Canada and the Charter, the Constitution of the United States, The Geneva convention and on and on.

These documents all speak of rights!

These rights allow us to live in peace and relative harmony in our society. They allow for mobile rights, employment rights, freedom of religion, human equality and so on. It is very important for us to keep what we have built.

But, if a nation does not foster rights to others than he has no right to them either. The rights and freedoms must equally apply to the Afghani's or they mean nothing!

Next month will mark the 5th anniversary in this conlict. It seems people have forgotten why this all started very quickly. If something like that happened again today we wouldn't be questioning this at all.

It really is a shame because we are doing so many good works in Afghanistan. We supplied their entire police force with new vehicles. Human aid and generosity is our way too. It's strange how the positive headlines never really get mentioned as much as negative ones. But, bad news sells. And, Afghanistan is bad news.

I don't know. This really is some sort of quagmire but we unfortunately have to do our part. To those who don't think so I ask what is the sober solution? We could send our troops to the Pentagon and military bases to serve as gofers and bring the Americans lattes or coffee?

I just hope that this isn't people directly associating Harper with the conflict. Oh boy. I hate it when Canadians do this.

1 - They tend to hate a politician in general.

2 - That politician is reigning over a major political crisis.

3 - Canadians anger and frustation over both issues morphs into a souped opinionated stance that does not hold merit.

Harper can pay at the ballot box. Just do me a favour people and please separate our troops from him in your mind. Vis-a-vis; our anger at the PM is not directed or redirected at the Forces.

American's have "Apple Pie". The Brits have "Stiff Upper Lip". The French have "Guile". The Canadian's have...um? Someone help me out here.

Let's all chicken and run.

PS. There are legitimate antiwar arguments that have merit. Those I don't mind. Please feel free to post a response. And, please go easy. I did have a warning about the piece in the title.

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"PS. There are legitimate antiwar arguments that have merit. Those I don't mind. Please feel free to post a response. And, please go easy. I did have a warning about the piece in the title."

Sound to me (IMO) that what your saying is if you don't agree with me, don't post it here............

I have no opinion either way, but I'm sure other do and should be allowed to post their opinion, as long as it doesn't resort to name calling etc.

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"PS. There are legitimate antiwar arguments that have merit. Those I don't mind. Please feel free to post a response. And, please go easy. I did have a warning about the piece in the title."

Sound to me (IMO) that what your saying is if you don't agree with me, don't post it here............

I have no opinion either way, but I'm sure other do and should be allowed to post their opinion, as long as it doesn't resort to name calling etc.

You raise an excellent point. I am shutting out the response on the basis of the 3 points on government versus the military. I should have been more specific and I should not have set limits.

I have posted it, so I deserve any response I get.

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Excellent post. You are 100% right that the media focuses only on the bad. On the whole, the mission in Afghanistan has been a resounding success, aside from the fact that Osama is still hiding in a hole somehwere.

It's the same in the US about Iraq. You only ever hear about the bodies. You never hear about the successful missions that happen frequently. You never hear about the good that is being done. I watched a documentary about the unit a classmate of mine is in, they chose his unit because it took the most casualities in Iraq. While those brave men certainly deserve recognition, why are there no documentaries about units that had low casualties with high rate of mission successes?

The media's job is to report the facts, and that simply doesn't happen anymore. Media outlets bend the truth, report what they want, and are able to spin things however they want. Take, for example, a recent first page headline in the Washington Post read "Troop Morale Low in Iraq." This is completely false. They simply found the malcontent soldiers and made it sound like they were the majority. Military analysts say morale is very good and is not close to being low. Of course, there are always people who don't want to be there, but those are not the majority, as the headline and article indicated.

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ATHLÉTIQUE.CANADIEN. Great Post! Glad you were brave enough to speak out, we do need to do more and say more.

Canada, is doing a lot of good in the world. Yes, thats right we are peacekeepers. But this world needs peacemakers too. Who better to make peace in a world thats hurting than us Canadians.

I'm a Canadian Citizen today but I too am an immigrant to this country, who came here to escape tirany. Canada gave me a future, Canadian "peacemakers" thats right not "peacekeepers" were able to broker a ceasefire and established a negotiated peace process. Now that peace did not last why... there are many answers but IMO it did not last because there wasn't a peacekeeping force established to keep the newly brokered peace agreement. The country is Srilanka the peacemaker was Bob Rae(politically speaking I would not vote for him, but I have the utmost respect for him) and his Canadian counterparts who with the help of the norwegians were able to bring peace to a tiny island in turmoil. Unfortunately, today the beautiful island country below india is taking two steps backwards and going from bad to worse in a hurry. A corrupt government and like many of the developing countries rampant with bribary and dishonest politics.

I'm sure many of us are thankful for our freedoms and way of life. We who have more and live in peace have a duty to answer the call and help. We can achieve this in many ways, speak out, support justice, be peacemakers and by all means continue the tradition of peacekeeping.

The life we have today was not built in one day. We enjoy our freedom today because a few sacrificed their lives to give us peace and security. Anyone who theatens that freedom must be challenged. Do not let the lives already lost be in vain. They faught for a greater good to help bring peace to a part of the world thats wrapped in turmoil. Their sacrifice should be celebrated and honored, not trampled on.

If we don't stand up for the innocent, helpless, weak and broken peoples and their countries in the world then who will? Many of us and/or our families came from other countries and many of us escaped a difficult life. Today we are proud to be Canadian's ( many of us are also proud to be Canadiens). You and I should understand the true meaning of peace and how difficult it is to make without help. Lets help now in Afganistan and the middle east and create a world that is safe and peaceful for you, me and most of all our Children.

If we don't help now, one day we may wake up and find it (unrest, war, turmoil) knocking on our door, threatening this wonderful way of life we have worked so hard to establish and maintain.

I support the idea of Canada and everything that is good about being Canadian. I am proud to be thought of as a peacekeeper but I'm equally proud that we are trying to be peacemakers.

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Excellent post. You are 100% right that the media focuses only on the bad. On the whole, the mission in Afghanistan has been a resounding success, aside from the fact that Osama is still hiding in a hole somehwere.

It's the same in the US about Iraq. You only ever hear about the bodies. You never hear about the successful missions that happen frequently. You never hear about the good that is being done. I watched a documentary about the unit a classmate of mine is in, they chose his unit because it took the most casualities in Iraq. While those brave men certainly deserve recognition, why are there no documentaries about units that had low casualties with high rate of mission successes?

The media's job is to report the facts, and that simply doesn't happen anymore. Media outlets bend the truth, report what they want, and are able to spin things however they want. Take, for example, a recent first page headline in the Washington Post read "Troop Morale Low in Iraq." This is completely false. They simply found the malcontent soldiers and made it sound like they were the majority. Military analysts say morale is very good and is not close to being low. Of course, there are always people who don't want to be there, but those are not the majority, as the headline and article indicated.

Amen, Fanpuck, amen.

The media is SUPPOSED to present the facts of the events that they are covering but they're so busy editorializing that often what's given as fact is biased coverage in the guise of fact. :(:angry2::angry: :puke:

:king: :hlogo: :king:

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"Afghanistan-strategic Counsel Says 54% Want Canada Out"

And I need to respond to one more issue. 54% of how many polled? (correct me if I'm wrong but I think only under 2000 were polled) And what about the millions? who were not consulted in this poll. The Millions of us Canadians who are proud to be fighting to bring Peace, what about polling us?

To hell with bad reporting and newspaper editors looking for the money making headline. I say lets make our own headline and look back on this moment in time with pride. We stood up for whats good and right and the facts!

And the fact is that Canada and this government is standing up in the world and making a difference. The fact is we are not taking orders from the US or any other government in Nato or the UN. We are defending our borders and re-establishing our sovereignty in the north, this is a fact. Let me tell you we have a battle on our hands up there my friends. Those waters have oil and are the future to the best shipping traffic lanes for many countries. Trust me when I say that the position our government is taking is the best and IMO the correct one.

Our good friends to the south may be the last superpower in the world but we were the first peacekeepers this world has known and I'll argue we are the only peacekeepers the world will still trust, that is a fact.

The truth is that this government is building relationships in the world and making hard decisions.

Harper and the Canadian government has done the best they could and continue to do the best they can in a very challenging and difficult period on the planet.

Edited by Chips

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I have to revive my post now. After todays developments do we really want a pullout? Planes might have exploded over North American cities, killing thousands.

(SARCASM) Let's pull out of Afghanistan. Let's let al Qaeda and the Taliban roam free and infest with not a restricted reign, but a flourishing one

PS. WE WON TODAY! Cheers to the Yard and MI-6

Edited by ATHLÉTIQUE.CANADIEN

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I agree a good day for the good guys!

I feel safer knowing that our governments, countries and law enforcement organizations are on top of this; I prefer to travel in safety rather than fear.

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I have to revive my post now. After todays developments do we really want a pullout? Planes might have exploded over North American cities, killing thousands.

(SARCASM) Let's pull out of Afghanistan. Let's let al Qaeda and the Taliban roam free and infest with not a restricted reign, but a flourishing one

PS. WE WON TODAY! Cheers to the Yard and MI-6

Just pointing out the other side of the argument but:

Let's pull out of Afghanistan and not give them a reason to target us.

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Just pointing out the other side of the argument but:

Let's pull out of Afghanistan and not give them a reason to target us.

I don't know... to back out due to fear of reprisals could be a wise move but, so far as I understand, more often than not, it's not a good move.

:king: :hlogo: :king:

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I believe the time to say something is before the troops enter the fray. After the troops have already landed and are doing there job the only option is to support them until the do their job or unequivocally fail at doing there job. I find people who support efforts like this and then change their mind are a little simple minded (not aimed at anyone in particular ... sorry for any offence if there is any taken). Can one really expect war to be clean and neat and that our side won't take casualties. It is to be expected, and you consider this before you enter the conflict, not after. After it is too late, and you should remember this for next time, and watch a few war movies to see how horrible war can be. This way you won't support a horrible act flippantly; you might actually consider whether such a drastic move is actually warranted.

My 2 cents.

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Just pointing out the other side of the argument but:

Let's pull out of Afghanistan and not give them a reason to target us.

Isn't that what they want though?

It'd just give them a higher feeling of power over the West. Screw that.

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I don't remember being asked if Canada should join the war.

I don't ever remember if Canada was put to a vote for being anything more then a "peacekeeper" in Afganistan.

I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHY ARE WE (PROUD CANADIANS) CAN SIT BACK AND WATCH A GENECIDE HAPPEN WERE WE ARE "PEACEKEEPERS" (BOSNIA, RWANDA and I'm probably forgetting other spots) AND TAKE UP AN OFFENSIVE ROLE IN A SPOT THAT THERE IS NO GENECIDE HAPPENING, (JUST) A LOT OF AMERICAN HATE YES, BUT THAT IS FOR THIS SAME POLITIC THAT WE CANADIANS HAVE MANAGED TO MEDIATE IN THE PAST AND NOT TAKE AN ACTIVE ROLE.

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I don't remember being asked if Canada should join the war.

I don't ever remember if Canada was put to a vote for being anything more then a "peacekeeper" in Afganistan.

i expect my Leader to lead - my Government to govern.

my chance to express my opinion was done and will be done at the polls.

i agree with Canada sending troops into Afganistan. and if our government opted to pull out for legitimate reasons - i'd be supportive of that decision also.

although there certainly are other causes in the world Canada could be sending troops to support - sometimes you have to go either where you feel you can be most effective, or where you feel there is the most urgent need, or you go where the world has their attention fixed on (kind of like everyone working together - as opposed to every little military country like Canada picking a tiny little task they can handle - when perhaps if all the little armies worked together - they could actually accomplish something of significance).

nice thread A.C.

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II CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHY ARE WE (PROUD CANADIANS) CAN SIT BACK AND WATCH A GENECIDE HAPPEN WERE WE ARE "PEACEKEEPERS" (BOSNIA, RWANDA and I'm probably forgetting other spots) AND TAKE UP AN OFFENSIVE ROLE IN A SPOT THAT THERE IS NO GENECIDE HAPPENING, (JUST) A LOT OF AMERICAN HATE YES, BUT THAT IS FOR THIS SAME POLITIC THAT WE CANADIANS HAVE MANAGED TO MEDIATE IN THE PAST AND NOT TAKE AN ACTIVE ROLE.

Wow, aside from the screaming, I can't figure out what you're trying to say ehjay. :blink:

But "Offensive role" and "Peacekeepers" are antonyms.

"Their hearts have been deadened"

Deadened? Is that a real word?

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I'll translate:

I can't figure out why us Canadians can still back and watch genocide happen in Darfur. What happend to the Canadian peace keeping tradition. (Bosnia, Rwanda, Golan Heights). Instead we take up an offensive role in Afghanistan where it is clearly not a peace keeping mission. Yes there is a lot of people who hate America in Afghanistan but that is the same politics that Canadians have managed to mediate in the past and not take an active role.

There that's what I think he was trying to say.

Edited by Pierre the Great

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...sometimes you have to go either where you feel you can be most effective, or where you feel there is the most urgent need, or you go where the world has their attention fixed on ...

Or go where you're blackmailed to go?

("If you're not with us, you're against us.")

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I'll translate:

I can't figure out why us Canadians can still back and watch genocide happen in Darfur. What happend to the Canadian peace keeping tradition. (Bosnia, Rwanda, Golan Heights). Instead we take up an offensive role in Afghanistan where it is clearly not a peace keeping mission. Yes there is a lot of people who hate America in Afghanistan but that is the same politics that Canadians have managed to mediate in the past and not take an active role.

There that's what I think he was trying to say.

Thanks.

Too bad I still dont understand. Was it a question or a statement?

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More of a statement. I'll give him credit though for speaking against it. Not to get to to political here but on this issue I'm getting a stay the course type feel. Then again I get a progressive conservative feel here as well when talking about politics in general. (now watch me be all wrong and you're all ndper's lol).

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yes that was mostly a statement, but at the same time I am a very proud Canadian and I believe that as a nation with military capabilities we have served this world as a mediator, and offensives against 'terorrists' have been because we have been attacked first. Due to this mind set we have stood and watched thousands die and at the same time found a peacefull way to save thousands, but I'm affraid that this new politic of 'picking' a side and not standing around and chatting it up with the locals of whatever area we have been asked by the UN (and not the US) to try and instor peace will leave us: the world tourist, prime target for kidnapings, womennapings and mannapings. Maybe even worse and 'make a target' out of OUR ( not the polishitians) great white north.

Two men (or women) are capable of meating, but two mountains will never (exept two mountains, the exeption that makes the rule).

p.s. sory for all the screaming, I imagine we all have been through moments when our 'caps lock'.

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Yep. Thats the Canadian way! In fact its the best way in my opinion because guns don't solve anything. Wars aren't won anymore like they were back in Roman time were you just killed everybody. You have to ultimately sit down at a table somewhere and talk to each other. But since Washington doesn't like to talk to 'terrorists' (even though they talk to them anyway they just don't say it publicly) peace won't happen.

America went wrong in the middle east when it started building air bases in Saudi Arabai. In fact in 1989 Bin Laden called his first infahden (sp) on the U.S. because they consider all of Saudi Arabia to be sacred and holy.

He lived in Saudi Arabia at the time then moved to Sudan then moved back to Afghanistan after World Trade Center bombings. If he dies and his number two die. His son who's either number 3 or 4 in the organization lives in Iran somewhere.

Here's my offical take on the war in Afghanistan. I have interests in both countries. I understand why Canada wanted to help in Afghanistan but they didn't really have to come. Thats my personal opinion. I always thought it was Chreitien being nice after helping out on 9/11. More of like a brother coming to the aide of his sister. He didn't have to he just did it anyway out of love and respect.

The U.S. situation is different. I support and still support the invasion of Afghanistan although the admistration has made crucial and fatal errors which in direct result has led to the Taliban resurgence. Afghanistan had a purpose, heck even Iran's president (before the new guy) wanted to help but the Bush instead but Iran on his axis of evil.

Afghanistan got the world together to fight one cause. If I was in the White House at the time I would have gotten help from anyone in that region because I wouldn't want the same mistakes that happend in the 80's happend again.

There are 4 Errors I think the U.S. and Brits did that screwd up Afghanistan.

Not keeping Turkey as the leader or figure head of the war.

Not really pushing the Pakistani's to go into there rural areas that are run by tribal leaders.

Not going after Bin Laden and Co., seriously we had him cornered and then we gave up

Burning the opium crop in Hellmand province. Yes they shouldn't make opium but you're doing the fatal error of doing it because thats all these people know what to do so one day if you go by there house and just burn there crop without telling them they're going to be pissed. So they turn against you.

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Yeah, the whole opium mess is a disaster. Bad policy.

In a non related story. A Pakistani newspaper is reporting that a son-in-law to al Qaeda's second-in-command (Zawahri) was the architect of a foiled plot to blow up 10 planes flying from the UK to the U.S.

CTV REPORT

I hope Zawahri is upset hahahaha :D

Edited by ATHLÉTIQUE.CANADIEN

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