Jump to content

Minimum Wage Lawsuit in Junior Hockey


Recommended Posts

Interesting article on ESPN.com

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/34346/lawsuit-seeks-to-have-junior-players-paid-minimum-wage

"The crux of the lawsuit, for which there is a class certification hearing in February, is that these players -- the vast majority of whom range from ages 16 to 20 years old -- are employees of their teams and deserve to be making a minimum wage. The CHL, however, contends that the players are instead "student athletes" who are guaranteed certain educational benefits and small weekly stipends."

The plaintiffs are looking for 160 million dollars, which sounds preposterous.

Is this just sour grapes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's certainly an interesting case to keep an eye on, it was filed a few months ago. It's not sour grapes but it's probably not nothing either. The weekly $50 stipend hasn't increased with inflation, it has been that way for many, many years. It probably should be higher.

But the players still get their equipment, room, and board free as well as a decent post-CHL education package (some teams have private academies for active players as well). If they tack on hundreds of dollars in salary on top of that (which is what is being asked for), it's going to do some serious damage to the league. If it ever gets to the point where they are awarded minimum wage, you'll see the teams in response drop a lot of what they're providing now which will set things back to square one.

I think eventually they'll settle out of court with there being an increase to the weekly stipend and some better defined rules on who does and doesn't qualify for the education package (what Sam Berg is seeking).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm kind of surprised to see this. A lot of bombast to get a raise on a stipend, I don't think a minimum wage is possible without dramatically changing junior hockey. This is a classic lawyer tactic. They're using the sticker shock to force a settlement and get the press involved.

Didn't Georges Laraque get involved in a similar battle? I remember he blamed junior hockey for someone screwing with his tires.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 months later...

There hasn't been much going on in this lately. Washington State passed a bill a little while back that classifies the players as amateurs; that went into effect last month. However, Washington State's Department of Labour and Industries has informed the four teams in that area (Seattle, Everett, Tri-City, and Spokane) that they're extending their year-long investigation as to whether child labour laws have been violated. So this issue, while not on the front burner by any stretch, probably isn't going away any time soon either.

http://www.tsn.ca/westhead-washington-state-attorney-recommends-further-labour-probe-of-junior-hockey-1.151829

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lawyers can make great arguments for anything. That is why they go to Law school. I agree maybe the stipend should be increased but this is a really short sighted law suit. If these kids ever got what they think they want, what will it cost them? They get more and the teams go ok find your own food and lodging, education, go ahead you get to pay. Are they really going to screw up a shot at making it to the NHL with this lawsuit? As I say I agree with Brian this will be settled and for a heck of a lot less than 160 million. I wonder who they are going to give that money to?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The teenage players need to band together...maybe they can just picket once high school gets out! :nuts:

And only if they don't have detention. Of course they have to ask mom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I think they need professional representation as in a union , a circumstance perhaps complicated by their ages, which brings parents into the picture. I don't really think its up to the professional organization that hires them to tell them just how good they've got it. Parents and players might have a pretty good idea of what's important and relevant to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This case really disgusts me.

If the junior players have it so bad, why don't they just quit and get a job at mcdonald's like most 16 year olds? Oh yes, because this is their big shot. It's not relevant that tickets are sold to these games. What's relevant is that this is amateur hockey, and the teams are acting as the trainers and publicity agents for these players, who are there on an extended tryout for the chance of a lifetime. You don't see 12 year old gymnasts demanding payment from their trainers, do you? Of course not. These players are lucky to get a stipend. The sense of entitlement that this lawsuit (and any who support it) displays is sickening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nobody pays big bucks to see gymnasts. If you're so disgusted are you also disgusted with the rising costs of junior hockey tickets, or some NHL teams are also profiting from owning Junior teams as well?

That kid who is supposed to be the#1 pick next year is getting paid $300k to play in Switzerland rather than go to junior. Doubt most Swiss teams generate as much revenue as the more successful junior teams.

Junior hockey generates revenue like NCAA sports (though nowhere to the extent of football in the USA), don't see why athletes should not benefit.

This case really disgusts me.

If the junior players have it so bad, why don't they just quit and get a job at mcdonald's like most 16 year olds? Oh yes, because this is their big shot. It's not relevant that tickets are sold to these games. What's relevant is that this is amateur hockey, and the teams are acting as the trainers and publicity agents for these players, who are there on an extended tryout for the chance of a lifetime. You don't see 12 year old gymnasts demanding payment from their trainers, do you? Of course not. These players are lucky to get a stipend. The sense of entitlement that this lawsuit (and any who support it) displays is sickening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This case really disgusts me.

If the junior players have it so bad, why don't they just quit and get a job at mcdonald's like most 16 year olds? Oh yes, because this is their big shot. It's not relevant that tickets are sold to these games. What's relevant is that this is amateur hockey, and the teams are acting as the trainers and publicity agents for these players, who are there on an extended tryout for the chance of a lifetime. You don't see 12 year old gymnasts demanding payment from their trainers, do you? Of course not. These players are lucky to get a stipend. The sense of entitlement that this lawsuit (and any who support it) displays is sickening.

It's not relevant that rich old men are making money off teenagers and not having to pay them?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rich old men like Patrick Roy, Carbo and many ex and some current NHLers own/part own CHL teams.

So you would rather that they lose $$ just so they can give teenagers an opportunity to develop into pro athletes?

Do you think they make a killing in profits or something?

And the educational rewards are also a bonus for vast majority of the kids.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not relevant that rich old men are making money off teenagers and not having to pay them?

No, it's not. They are entitled to nothing other than market value. Government has no place in this. If they're not willing to play for a stipend, let them quit. If enough of them quit, the league will have no choice. My suspicion is, most of them are grateful for the opportunity and will play for a stipend - they already are.

It's not government job to decide what people are "entitled" to. That's the free market. There's no other marker of value.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, it's not. They are entitled to nothing other than market value. Government has no place in this. If they're not willing to play for a stipend, let them quit. If enough of them quit, the league will have no choice. My suspicion is, most of them are grateful for the opportunity and will play for a stipend - they already are.

It's not government job to decide what people are "entitled" to. That's the free market. There's no other marker of value.

Now that is true capitalism, and I have no problem with that. We need a lot less government not more. These kids are getting free room and board, an education, the opportunity to earn millions of dollars, and spending money. Nobody is giving me that kind of a deal. I am male free white and a lot over 21, I got no rights. Except to pay taxes, which the government pisses up against the wall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Human beings and society do not exist to serve capitalism which is not an inviolable system of life, and neither do we exist to serve those who benefit the most financially from capitalism in its many shades. Parents and their children have a right to negotiate the practices and benefits of their employment. Period. Any system or practice is answerable ultimately to the community in which it exists. Let the kids get proper representation befitting their nature as human beings and their legitimate needs. Junior hockey may well be doing all kinds of good things, but let the chips fall where they may. Many kids forego college and education generally to play in the junior leagues. Human beings have a God given right to freely negotiate their terms of employment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Capitalism always results in the best quality of life for even the least fortunate in society. Socialism makes the mistake of assuming you can combat human greed, but it's built into us by several million years of evolution. Capitalism harnesses human greed into productivity that benefits all.

Though you're right about one thing... They do have a right to negotiate. That's capitalism. The government doing it for them is not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Human beings and society do not exist to serve capitalism which is not an inviolable system of life, and neither do we exist to serve those who benefit the most financially from capitalism in its many shades. Parents and their children have a right to negotiate the practices and benefits of their employment. Period. Any system or practice is answerable ultimately to the community in which it exists. Let the kids get proper representation befitting their nature as human beings and their legitimate needs. Junior hockey may well be doing all kinds of good things, but let the chips fall where they may. Many kids forego college and education generally to play in the junior leagues. Human beings have a God given right to freely negotiate their terms of employment.

Yes they do, and by extension employers have the Great pumkin given right to say no. The employer usually has the upper hand, and in this case very much so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Capitalism is not a political or moral system but is simply an economic principle respecting among other things a market system and to some extent the principle of subsidiarity which holds that the political authority should be distinct from the economic powers. When it becomes , as appears here, a Darwinian "survival of the fittest'.. a rather narrow understanding of evolutionary science by the way, then it becomes de facto a system of domination and control as it significantly is in the US for instance. Slavery is perfectly within the principles of capitalism. Its origins with Jean de Calvin were indeed predicated upon the mistaken notion that greed , a vice and perversion of healthy natural rights and interests and obligations was a fitting principle for organization. The abuses and injustices that unfettered capitalism inflict upon the weaker or , again as in the US a country with virtually no upwards mobility.. whatever "upwards' might mean, must be attenuated and moderated by legislation. These young people have a right to representation and negotiated principles of employment. It is not their duty or that of their parents to simply be told how their lives will unfold and under what circumstances. The love of money really is the root of all evil as it represents the false hope of mere physical survival. Its closely associated with fear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The owners indeed have the right to negotiate in good faith with the appropriate and duly constituted representatives of the junior players and their parents and they can indeed reject proposals, and as you say they have powers and leverage to bring to bear which is why the principle of association , or the right to form unions is so important to counterbalance this otherwise dominant position. One only has a right to do what is right though, and I'm not talking about civil or positive law which has been used to justify slaughtering Jews and slavery, but the natural law which constitutions are supposed to defend. The very term constitution which ordinarily denotes some document in our minds is upon reflection the statement of how life shall be constituted in the lives of the community.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Slavery has been around for thousands of years since 'civilization' began, started out as a product of war to acquire cheap or specialized labour force, not for profit.

And no way is it true to simply say 'love of $' is root of all evil, much wickedness has absolutely nothing at all to do with $$. :rastapop:

The whole idea of amateur sports, seems to me to be about 'love of game', am not sure the whole salary for CHL players is a big deal to the kids themselves and they likely see themselves more in an 'intern' role with an opportunity to gain work experience and showcase their skills?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No I don't think money is the root of all evil I could give you a good argument the religion and all that it represents is as evil as money. It has used to accomplish all those examples you give and more. But that is a much deeper subject and this thread is getting way off course again. These kids are not slaves, they are young men who have a skill and a desire to profit from it. There is a system in place to make that happen. Some minor league teams make good money and some are money pits. Owning a junior team is no guarantee of riches. Most of the owners are former players or big fans. They don't sit around and conspire to screw the kids out of money. They offer an opportunity to accomplish something that very few people in the world get. It is similar to the scholarship program in the states. I have not heard about all the collage football players asking for minimum wage. If I am not correct, and I only have a half assed idea of the system but if they accept money they are suspended. One thing I do know is that college football makes one hell of a lot more money than the chl. And the players are not paid or not very much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have not heard about all the collage football players asking for minimum wage. If I am not correct, and I only have a half assed idea of the system but if they accept money they are suspended. One thing I do know is that college football makes one hell of a lot more money than the chl. And the players are not paid or not very much.

One school tried to have their players unionize (Northwestern?) that could have allowed them to get paid but it was struck down in court recently. A lot of college football players at least receive a full ride scholarship wise and that's worth a whole lot more than the CIS scholarship package players accrue in the CHL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One school tried to have their players unionize (Northwestern?) that could have allowed them to get paid but it was struck down in court recently. A lot of college football players at least receive a full ride scholarship wise and that's worth a whole lot more than the CIS scholarship package players accrue in the CHL.

as I say I am no expert.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

here is a quote from an american writer who supposedly knows what he is talking about. Yes scholarships are a good deal, but I still don't see where they are getting "paid"

So What Are Full-ride Scholarships, and Who Gets Them?

Full-ride scholarships essentially enable recipients to attend college at little cost. Tuition, room and board, books, and certain fees related to courses are covered. Expenses that may not be covered include other student fees (e.g., late fees and parking tickets), fines, or the premium to be paid for a single dorm room.

These scholarships are however available to those who play what are called head count sports, sports that are considered to be revenue producers. For men, head count sports are basketball and division I football. For women, basketball, volleyball, tennis, and gymnastics constitute head count sports.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...