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Will it come down to Markov or Wisniewski?


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Benny is what he is. We get over it and move on. Richer, Corson, Malakhov, Kostitsyn, Bulis, Zubrus etc, etc. never matched their potential, the best thing to do is assess the potential of him maxing out and if he isn't treat him as the asset he is and see if you can steal a more productive player based on his potential.

The Habs did this beautifully with Richer. Corson and Malakhov. They turned them into Damphousse, Muller and Souray all three were making an impact long after those three were done.

The difference is that all three, Richer, Corson and Malakhov had put up impressive numbers and had a few productive seasons before they were moved. I wouldn't think the value for Pouliot is going to be very high given his pretty much 1/4 of a good season last year.

I think you have to give him one more year next year and move some of the garbage like Moen who was on the top two lines way too often this year.

Everyone wanted Ak46 moved at the trade deadline and IMO, he has been one of the habs most consistent offensive players (given his annual output - not on a game by game basis). Ak46 has been outstanding in this year's playoffs and he is around 3 years older then Pouliot, so I really think we need to give Pouliot one more year. What hurts is the stupid raise the habs gave him last year and that means that this year's qualifying offer has to be higher. Not sure why they gave him that big of a raise on a one year deal - you would think, they would have wanted at least two years at that rate, rather then having to give him at a minimum the required increase in this year's qualifying offer.

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What hurts is the stupid raise the habs gave him last year and that means that this year's qualifying offer has to be higher. Not sure why they gave him that big of a raise on a one year deal - you would think, they would have wanted at least two years at that rate, rather then having to give him at a minimum the required increase in this year's qualifying offer.

Arbitration was what led to the raise. Given Pouliot's short-season success with the Habs, he could have argued that he was a 40-50 point player who was just starting to break out. It was for this reason the Habs technically didn't qualify Pouliot, so they could avoid going the arbitration route where they felt he could get more. However, this would have meant he was to become a UFA, so they had to pony up, settling to go for a near $500k raise, believing that an arbitrator would have awarded a higher one than that had they just given him a standard QO. I don't have the percentage thresholds in my head for a qualifying offer but he'll either need a 5% raise in his QO or no raise at all. Once again, he'll be arbitration eligible and given what they did last year, I think we could be looking at another non-tender.

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Hammer is better but Gill will be cheaper and I think has a larger leadership role. I really wish Montreal could keep all their D though, there's none I want to lose.

I really don't know why everyone hear wants Hammer and Gill back - when we are already stuck with Spacek as an over 35 signing. The only way I'd want either Hammer or Gill back would be IF the habs an get someone to take Spacek off our hands AND they both sign VERY cheap. To me that would mean Hammer signing for under $2.5M and Gill for around $1.2M - which I don't see either doing.

The Habs will probably have to pay Gorges close to $3M - which is more then double what he gets now, Wiz would probably be around $4M, I'm hoping that can get Markov for around $4.5M. Having those three plus the new number #1a/b d-man in Subban hat would be an impressive top 4. I'd much rather pick up one BIG dman, or at least one who is a physical force and can further help the transiition game via free agency or trade (Bieska) would be nice. The last two positions can be filled out by saying how Weber progresses and picking up one other PHYSICAL dman.

It may sound cold, but I think Gill has served his purpose this year and Subban shouldn't need him next year. Next year, I'd much rather pair Subban with Markov or even Gorges.

I think this year's playoffs have shown the habs D to be old and slow and we need guys who can actually clear the front of the net - Gill and Hammer haven't been very effective in helping the transition game or the physical game. Its time to keep the studs and dump the duds. Hammer has been useful, but hasn't been worth the $5.5M he is getting and I also think there are better options out there.

To me the following D would be a wet dream:

Markov - $4.5-$5M

Subban - $750K

Gorges $2.75M

Beiska $3.75M

Wiz $3,75M

Weber $750k

Arbitration was what led to the raise. Given Pouliot's short-season success with the Habs, he could have argued that he was a 40-50 point player who was just starting to break out. It was for this reason the Habs technically didn't qualify Pouliot, so they could avoid going the arbitration route where they felt he could get more. However, this would have meant he was to become a UFA, so they had to pony up, settling to go for a near $500k raise, believing that an arbitrator would have awarded a higher one than that had they just given him a standard QO. I don't have the percentage thresholds in my head for a qualifying offer but he'll either need a 5% raise in his QO or no raise at all. Once again, he'll be arbitration eligible and given what they did last year, I think we could be looking at another non-tender.

Don't they have to tender him at a 5% increase to keep his rights this year?

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Don't they have to tender him at a 5% increase to keep his rights this year?

Alright, I'll look it up, but you're delaying what truly will be a riveting filler piece on the site. :) Here are the thresholds:

Salary of less than or equal to $660,000 = 10% required increase.

Salary of between $660,001 and $999,999 = 5% required increase.

Anything equal to or over $1 million = 0% required increase, the QO = salary.

So in Pouliot's case, his qualifying offer is for $1.35 million or what he's getting this season.

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Alright, I'll look it up, but you're delaying what truly will be a riveting filler piece on the site. :) Here are the thresholds:

Salary of less than or equal to $660,000 = 10% required increase.

Salary of between $660,001 and $999,999 = 5% required increase.

Anything equal to or over $1 million = 0% required increase, the QO = salary.

So in Pouliot's case, his qualifying offer is for $1.35 million or what he's getting this season.

Thanksfor checking, at least that's promising that they don't have to give Pouliot a raise after this awful year, the way they did with Higgins after his terrible year. I hope they do qualify Pouliot and not let another asset go for nothing. He still have one more RFA year after next year right?

I also hope they get a long term deal done with Ak46 and not due a one year deal that would make him a UFA the following year.

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Thanksfor checking, at least that's promising that they don't have to give Pouliot a raise after this awful year, the way they did with Higgins after his terrible year. I hope they do qualify Pouliot and not let another asset go for nothing. He still have one more RFA year after next year right?

Correct, 2 RFA years left for him. In all likelihood, he'll still get a raise though; it's very rare where an arbitrator awards a salary equal to the qualifying offer. The Habs can qualify him for $1.35M but there's no way Pouliot takes that (unless he really, really wants to stay in Montreal and some things are quietly suggested regarding what could happen if he rejects). If he's with the Habs next year, it'll be for around $1.75 M, give or take a hundred thousand or two.

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Correct, 2 RFA years left for him. In all likelihood, he'll still get a raise though; it's very rare where an arbitrator awards a salary equal to the qualifying offer. The Habs can qualify him for $1.35M but there's no way Pouliot takes that (unless he really, really wants to stay in Montreal and some things are quietly suggested regarding what could happen if he rejects). If he's with the Habs next year, it'll be for around $1.75 M, give or take a hundred thousand or two.

I just don't see how he could even ask for a raise given the fact that he scored 4 less goals then last year in 25 MORE games. A $0.4M raise and a $1.35M salary for a guy who had 30 points seems ridiculous!! I can't even imagine going to my boss if after a bad year and asking or even expecting a raise. probably would be fired on the spot. I don't have any issues with top players getting big salaries and I think guys like Ovechkin and Crosby are underpaid relative to other sports, but its instances like this I hate the collective bargaining system, where a guy clearly deserves to take a pay cut, but because of his age, would even think about expecting a raise.

I also doubt he would want to stay in Montreal. For a guy like him, it probably would be easier going to an environment where there wouldn't be much pressure or expectations. There are just too many players who are okay with living in a hot climate, weather or not there is a passion for the game. I can't get a over a guy like Shane Doan who was happy losing all those years in Phoenix, with no hope of success, rather then going somewhere that there would actually be a chance to winning something.

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I just don't see how he could even ask for a raise given the fact that he scored 4 less goals then last year in 25 MORE games. A $0.4M raise and a $1.35M salary for a guy who had 30 points seems ridiculous!! I can't even imagine going to my boss if after a bad year and asking or even expecting a raise. probably would be fired on the spot. I don't have any issues with top players getting big salaries and I think guys like Ovechkin and Crosby are underpaid relative to other sports, but its instances like this I hate the collective bargaining system, where a guy clearly deserves to take a pay cut, but because of his age, would even think about expecting a raise.

He had a career high in points...wasn't by much, but it was a career high. That alone nets him a couple hundred thousand. The fact he's a top-5 overall pick means 'potential' still gets thrown around, that buys another little bump. There are no pay cuts in RFA (unless coming off an entry-level deal onto a cheaper, one-way pact), he'll get a raise as he'd have little incentive to simply accept a qualifying offer. So then it begs the question of whether the Habs bother to qualify him or not, or do they try and give him a 2 year deal?

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He had a career high in points...wasn't by much, but it was a career high. That alone nets him a couple hundred thousand. The fact he's a top-5 overall pick means 'potential' still gets thrown around, that buys another little bump. There are no pay cuts in RFA (unless coming off an entry-level deal onto a cheaper, one-way pact), he'll get a raise as he'd have little incentive to simply accept a qualifying offer. So then it begs the question of whether the Habs bother to qualify him or not, or do they try and give him a 2 year deal?

I think they have to qualify him and if they are you have to give him either another 1 year deal or get him to give up one of his UFA years if he is going to get any sort of increase. A two year deal that would make him a UFA does't make sense.

Edited by hab29RETIRED
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I think they have to qualify him and if they are you have to give him either another 1 year deal or get him to give up one of his UFA years if he is going to get any sort of increase. A two year deal that would make him a UFA does't make sense.

The Habs tend to not buy out UFA years, at least they have in the past. I could see them trying a 2 year, $1.75 mil per year offer, giving him a raise while getting a little security if he were to break out. If they try a 3 year pact, I think it'd take $2.5 M minimum and given all the spots they have to fill, I can't see them being willing to take that much of a risk. Personally, I don't think he gets qualified period and ultimately walks. Not the best of asset management for sure but if they feel he's maxed out as a 30-35 point guy, they're better off trying another player at a lesser cost.

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The Habs tend to not buy out UFA years, at least they have in the past. I could see them trying a 2 year, $1.75 mil per year offer, giving him a raise while getting a little security if he were to break out. If they try a 3 year pact, I think it'd take $2.5 M minimum and given all the spots they have to fill, I can't see them being willing to take that much of a risk. Personally, I don't think he gets qualified period and ultimately walks. Not the best of asset management for sure but if they feel he's maxed out as a 30-35 point guy, they're better off trying another player at a lesser cost.

I really think he can become a 30goal, 60 point guy. I also think it would be a mistake to let him walk until at least seeing how effective MaxPac is when he comes back. IMO having a top 9 wingers of Cammi, Ak46, Gionta, MaxPac, Pouliot and Deshanrais (I really think Desharanis would be better suited as a winger) could be pretty solid. Next year, I'd really like to see the following up front:

Cammy-Pleks-Ak46

MaxPac-GOMEZ REPLACEMENT-MaxPac

Pouliot-Eller-Desharais

White-BIG CENTRE-Pyatt/Darche

I know looking at next year is kind of jumping the gun while we are still in the playoffs, but regardless of what happens, I really think we need to keep an eye on our needs next year and this year's playoffs only reinforce my thoughts of watching this team all year long. I any event, with game 5 under 24 hours away, its much less stressful to think about next year then tomorrow night ^_^

I want the team to continue being built in the "speeed and style/Flying Frenchmen - although I guess it will have to be without the frenchmen :quebec: ) mold, but just get a little big bigger up front, with a more productive 2nd line centre and a bigger, speedy shutdown centre who can actually win faceoffs. The change I'd i'd like to see is more team toughness - which doesn't mean I want a goon - I hated the Laraque signing and don't want the habs to get that kind of player, let the Bruins and Flyers take on those type of players. To me the model has always been and always will be the 70's habs. A team built on speed, solid D, great goaltending and a group that has team toughness that won't let anyone (i.e. Flyers) intimidate them.

On D, I've already said, I'd like to see Markov, Gorges and Wiz back along with our new franchise cornerstone in Subban. If we round out those 4 with another solid big Dman who can clear the net (Bieksa would be sweet), weber and find a creative way to dump Spacek and his contract, I'll be very happy. All that would then be needed is a real goalie to backup Price.

I think in two years, we should find out if Leblanc is going to be a top 6 NHL'er and in and in 3 years whether Tinordi is going to be as solid as his dad was.

Edited by hab29RETIRED
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Markov can make Markov money, or even a little less.

Wisniewski can make some of Hamrlik's money.

Hamrlik can make as much money as he can get from another team this offseason.

I really think it comes down to whether Wis wants to be here or not. If he does, they'll make it work.

Markov - Wisniewski

Spacek - Gorges

Gill - Subban

Weber

I'd be happy.

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Markov can make Markov money, or even a little less.

Wisniewski can make some of Hamrlik's money.

Hamrlik can make as much money as he can get from another team this offseason.

I really think it comes down to whether Wis wants to be here or not. If he does, they'll make it work.

Markov - Wisniewski

Spacek - Gorges

Gill - Subban

Weber

I'd be happy.

100%. That D is a little shaky in its own end, but all told pretty impressive.

Remember, though, Bieksa could also be available. I agree that we should try to re-sign Wiz - then again, I have a recurring bias in favour of re-signing players - but we should keep in mind that other options will be in play too. My main concern is that we not go into next season without a legitimate top-4 guy in Wiz's slot.

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100%. That D is a little shaky in its own end, but all told pretty impressive.

Remember, though, Bieksa could also be available. I agree that we should try to re-sign Wiz - then again, I have a recurring bias in favour of re-signing players - but we should keep in mind that other options will be in play too. My main concern is that we not go into next season without a legitimate top-4 guy in Wiz's slot.

Wiz is Bieska... just a little less gritty, but he's more than willing to stand up for his teammates. Wiz has more career points in fewer games and is two years younger.

I'm quite comfortable with those pairings in our own end. Where do you see the problem, Cuc?

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I definitely hope we can sign both Wis and Markov back next year.

Bye bye to hamrlik (thanks for the services but we can't afford you anymore!)

Au revoir Sopel/Mara it was nice knowing you, but we need to get younger back there!

I agree with trizzak

Markov-Wis

Gill- Subban

Spacek-Gorges

Weber

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Let's not forget that Wis had 51 points this season... not too shabby for a d-man. When he came over from N-Y he was a -18. He finished the season at -14, which means he was a +4 in Montreal.

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Heartbreaking loss, but no shame. Could have gone either way. Time to start thinking about next season :popcorn:

Revisiting again, I am firmly convinced we should be going after the Wiz, in addition to Markov and Gorges. The new Versus contract means the salary cap might be as high as $63M = lots of room to do the following with revisions from last time:

Hmmmm. Fell asleep thinking about this dilemma and woke up thinking about it too. The CC is right - the Habs should push the boundaries to find a way to keep the Wiz - who else could come close to replacing Markov's offensive amazingness if his knee is really botched (note that the risk of this is greater because Markov is recovering from these surgeries at an older age)? Sometimes the solution is obvious: Sign Markov for one and the Wiz long-term. Trade the Wiz if Markov returns to greatness. If his knee is botched, let Markov go at the end of 2012 and keep the Wiz.

If they cut Gill loose and re-sign Mara for $800,000 (much needed, affordable toughness), limit Weber's raise to .875 per for one or two years one-way, the D next season looks like this:

Markov-Wiz, 5.75+4.5 =10.25

Gorges-Subban, 3.25+.875 =5

Spacek-Weber, 3.83+.875=4.7

Mara = .800

Nash?

Total 2011-12 on D = $20.755M = about 1 or 2M higher than we'd like it, but, that's a pretty crazy top 4 D.

With $28.787M locked up on Cam, Gio, Gom, Pleks, Price, Eller and Moen (and Laraque), that leaves about $11.5M assuming the salary cap bumps upward from $59.4M to about $61M for 2011-12.

All one way contracts:

AK, 3.75M for 3

Poo, 2M for 2

Max Pac, 1.75M for 2

Desharnais 1M for 2

Darche, .750M for 1

Halpern, 0.750M for 1

White 0.5M for 1

= $10.5M

= $1.5M (+ $2M if the cap goes up to $63M) for a backup goalie and wiggle room

Tight, but worth it for the having the assurance of the Wiz being able to stay if Markov is unable to return to top form. Of course, the risk is that the Wiz's numbers decline and his contract becomes unmovable, and the team is totally screwed. But his performance has been consistently on the upswing during his NHL career, despite a lot of bumping around. We can't afford the luxury of him, Subban and a healthy Markov long-term, but it could work next season, and it may help make the team a contender next year.

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  • 4 weeks later...

With Rafalski retiring and Lidstrom probably only going to play for at most one more year, I really hope that PG gets Markov signed quick. If he's still available on July 1, I think Detroit will not only jump at getting him signed, they will probably be willing throw 5 years and $6M at him. He would be a perfect fit there.

Like I said in an earlier thread, the habs already made a mistake with Chelios after he had a couple of knee operations and that was supposed to be one of the reasons Serge Savard dumped him for a washed up Denis Savard. Chelios only went on to play for around another 18 years!!! I sure hope the habs don't make the same mistake with Markov. I wouldnt hesitate to sign him to a front loaded 5 or 6 deal averaging $5m ($6.5m $6m, $6m, $4m,$4m, $3.5m). If he does get injured again and is out long-term and is forced to retire it's not much of a gamble, because like Rafalski he would have been under 35 when he signed and we wouldn't be on the hook for the reaminder of his cap hit - unlike the idiotic 3 year deal Gainey gave to Spacek, were we are stuck with Spacek for another year, despite him pretty much being washed up in the second year of the deal.

I also think with Detroit suddenly having all that extra cap room the cost of free agent dman just got higher. I really wish PG got the Markov deal done earlier, beacuse like i said, I don't think Detroit will hesitate to sign him for$6m+. I think Wiz and Bieksa just saw their value go up as well.

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With Rafalski retiring and Lidstrom probably only going to play for at most one more year, I really hope that PG gets Markov signed quick. If he's still available on July 1, I think Detroit will not only jump at getting him signed, they will probably be willing throw 5 years and $6M at him. He would be a perfect fit there.

Like I said in an earlier thread, the habs already made a mistake with Chelios after he had a couple of knee operations and that was supposed to be one of the reasons Serge Savard dumped him for a washed up Denis Savard. Chelios only went on to play for around another 18 years!!! I sure hope the habs don't make the same mistake with Markov. I wouldnt hesitate to sign him to a front loaded 5 or 6 deal averaging $5m ($6.5m $6m, $6m, $4m,$4m, $3.5m). If he does get injured again and is out long-term and is forced to retire it's not much of a gamble, because like Rafalski he would have been under 35 when he signed and we wouldn't be on the hook for the reaminder of his cap hit - unlike the idiotic 3 year deal Gainey gave to Spacek, were we are stuck with Spacek for another year, despite him pretty much being washed up in the second year of the deal.

I also think with Detroit suddenly having all that extra cap room the cost of free agent dman just got higher. I really wish PG got the Markov deal done earlier, beacuse like i said, I don't think Detroit will hesitate to sign him for$6m+. I think Wiz and Bieksa just saw their value go up as well.

Yeah, I'm not sure why the Habs seem to like to wait until the last minute to lock up the guys they want (although I concede that this is common enough practice - look at the Canucks re-signing the Sedins at the 11th hour; and I suppose it's possible that even where both sides want a deal done, it's in the advantasge of the player to push it down to the wire for the purposes of getting the best deal). I certainly hope that when the time is right they will lock up PK and Price in the way that the Flyers did with Richards. But as for Markov, I'm not too worried; he had a great opportunity to go UFA earlier in his career at a time when the Habs sucked much worse than they do now, and he made it pretty clear he wanted to stick around. I'm pretty sure the Habs's players believe they can contend. So while I'm sure his agent will use all the leverage he can the likeliest outcome is #79 remains with us. The size of his contract is another question.

The extra $3 mil on the cap could make a big difference for us in terms of either dumping Gomez to a team that needs to reach the floor, or in terms of adding a forward with size, or even signing Wiz. We'll see.

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Rather than weighing in too much here, I've assessed both players independently recently on the site. I still feel that it will be one or the other that re-signs (I quickly noted why in the Wisniewski piece).

Markov: http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=2491

Wisniewski: http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=2494

I'm also going to put a new poll on the site to get some more input on what is probably the biggest issue facing Gauthier between now and free agency (other than the draft of course).

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