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Will it come down to Markov or Wisniewski?


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A lot of people seem confident that Wiz is gone. It may indeed be that we can't afford him under the cap. However, the 'Wiz is gone' crowd overlooks the fact that we NEED Wiz and that our season could well have been a dire disaster without him. The ease with which people seem to be imagining Wiz's departure is eerily reminiscent of the carefree attitude we took to Streit. The fact is, we have been scrambling to fill the hole left by Streit ever since (first with Schneider, then with Bergeron, and now with Wiz). With Wiz, we have a heavy-duty, real-deal PP cannon and all-around good defenceman entering his prime. Just letting him walk strikes me as pretty ill-advised. And if we do have to let him walk because of weighty contracts to people like Spacek and Gomez, that is a frightening indictment of the Habs' cap management.

Just for the sake of discussion, how long has it been since Streit left? 3, 4 years? Streit leaves, Schneider comes in. He leaves, Bergeron's in. He leaves, in comes Wisniewski. The cumulative cost of those players has been two 2nd round picks, a conditional 5th, and a swap of 3rd's. If that's all it takes to bring in someone that takes off offensively, why rush to overpay in free agency? Yes, I'm simplifying things a little too much but the Habs have done relatively well identifying offensive blueliners that can fit their system. (Spacek didn't quite so much but no one's perfect.) Subban can be that PP anchor and if Markov stays with Wisniewski leaving, that's 2 above average offensive d-men, a situation the Habs have lacked for a while other than really this season. Letting both Markov and Wisniewski go could be problematic though, I do agree there.

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Just for the sake of discussion, how long has it been since Streit left? 3, 4 years? Streit leaves, Schneider comes in. He leaves, Bergeron's in. He leaves, in comes Wisniewski. The cumulative cost of those players has been two 2nd round picks, a conditional 5th, and a swap of 3rd's. If that's all it takes to bring in someone that takes off offensively, why rush to overpay in free agency? Yes, I'm simplifying things a little too much but the Habs have done relatively well identifying offensive blueliners that can fit their system. (Yes, Spacek didn't quite so much but no one's perfect.) Subban can be that PP anchor and if Markov stays with Wisniewski leaving, that's above average offensive d-men. Letting both Markov and Wisniewski go could be problematic though, I do agree there.

Dlbar, I anticipated this response. First of all, filling the Streit absence has cost us a substantial number of draft picks (as you document above) and we need to staunch the bleeding somewhere, surely. We can't keep throwing out 2nd and 3rd rounders to fill the same vacancy. Wiz is here and offering us an opportunity to do stop the hemmoraging, assuming he's willing to sign.

Secondly, Bergeron and Schnide were hardly home runs; one was too old to stay healthy, which bit us on the ass down the stretch, while the other was a disaster in his own end, which bit us on the ass from start to finish. Of the three, only Wiz has represented a genuine solution.

Thirdly, Markov is high risk and PK will be a sophomore. Any seasoned hockey-watcher will know what folly it is to place your destiny in the hands of players of that profile. Relatedly, Markov-Subban-Gill-Gorges-Spacek-Hamrlik gives us at best three top-4 defencemen, only one of which is not on the decline. That shouldn't exactly set our minds at ease.

Final thought: I don't want a merely serviceable D corps sewn together on a wing and a prayer. I want the Habs to be contenders. In the unlikely event that Markov doesn't get hurt, Markov-Subban-Wiz gives us a top-3 to rival anyone's. That should be our goal, not standing still or declining due to ridiculous cap problems.

Now, having said all that, it doesn't HAVE to be Wiz. Any legitimate top-4 defenceman of a similar profile would suffice.

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Add Gorges in your top 3 and you have a solid top 4. Gorges has proven himself to be a solid shut down defenseman. Maybe Wisniewski would be a better 2nd pair defenseman for the future, Markov / Subban and Gorges / Wisniewski going forward? With or without Wisniewski, Subban would get more chances to shoot with Markov on the power play and he does possess a great shot.

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Add Gorges in your top 3 and you have a solid top 4. Gorges has proven himself to be a solid shut down defenseman. Maybe Wisniewski would be a better 2nd pair defenseman for the future, Markov / Subban and Gorges / Wisniewski going forward? With or without Wisniewski, Subban would get more chances to shoot with Markov on the power play and he does possess a great shot.

Look, I'm not going to go all OCD on this point. All I'm saying is that if we rely on Markov-Subban we are asking for trouble, in particular when Markov goes down with his inevitable injury and you've got a sophomore working as your #1 defenceman. No capologist I; but looking at Gomer, Spacek, and Hammer, I see a ton of cap savings that could potentially be put in part toward Wiz's salary *provided* the Habs are prepared to emulate the ruthlessness of teams like Chicago and Philadelphia when it comes to dumping sh*tty contracts. Having watched those two teams ascend to the Finals, along with teams like Boston and Vancouver take the same approach, I am firmly of the 'sign-the-guy-you-want-and-sort-out-the-cap-issues-later' school. The goal is to win the Stanley Cup, not spin your wheels.

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Look, I'm not going to go all OCD on this point. All I'm saying is that if we rely on Markov-Subban we are asking for trouble, in particular when Markov goes down with his inevitable injury and you've got a sophomore working as your #1 defenceman. No capologist I; but looking at Gomer, Spacek, and Hammer, I see a ton of cap savings that could potentially be put in part toward Wiz's salary *provided* the Habs are prepared to emulate the ruthlessness of teams like Chicago and Philadelphia when it comes to dumping sh*tty contracts. Having watched those two teams ascend to the Finals, along with teams like Boston and Vancouver take the same approach, I am firmly of the 'sign-the-guy-you-want-and-sort-out-the-cap-issues-later' school. The goal is to win the Stanley Cup, not spin your wheels.

I kind of agree. If you can have Subban, Markov and Wisniewski for a combined $11M isn't that a bargain? You fill the rest of the backend with a discounted Gill and Hamrlik and a signed Spacek/Weber and it is reasonable to project out their D at $20M. Although I think I would prefer to go Markov/Subban/Bieksa/Gill/Hamrlik/Spacek/Weber.

With Price still a bargain contract it leaves close to $40M on forwards. They have to take advantage right now at the ridiculous discount contracts of Subban and Price.

Edited by Wamsley01
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I kind of agree. If you can have Subban, Markov and Wisniewski for a combined $11M isn't that a bargain?

For 1 year, yeah. If the Habs try and lock up Subban on a long (say 5 year) contract after next season, you could be looking at $11 M for just 2 of the 3 in the season(s) following next. Unless one of Markov (unlikely at this point) or Wisniewski (not a chance) is willing to take a 1 year pact this offseason, you'd be setting yourself up for cap purgatory even worse than this season, staring down well over $20 million on the blueline with a new contract for Price to boot. With none of the long-term forward deals expiring soon and a new CBA with potentially a reduced cap, that could be disastrous. It'd be nice to take advantage of the cheap deals for Price/Subban, but the only way to do so without killing yourself long-term is to find guys willing to take 1 year deals which really limits the options.

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Just for the sake of discussion, how long has it been since Streit left? 3, 4 years? Streit leaves, Schneider comes in. He leaves, Bergeron's in. He leaves, in comes Wisniewski. The cumulative cost of those players has been two 2nd round picks, a conditional 5th, and a swap of 3rd's. If that's all it takes to bring in someone that takes off offensively, why rush to overpay in free agency? Yes, I'm simplifying things a little too much but the Habs have done relatively well identifying offensive blueliners that can fit their system. (Spacek didn't quite so much but no one's perfect.) Subban can be that PP anchor and if Markov stays with Wisniewski leaving, that's 2 above average offensive d-men, a situation the Habs have lacked for a while other than really this season. Letting both Markov and Wisniewski go could be problematic though, I do agree there.

we gave up a lot of draft picks for letting Streit and may have avoided th Spacek signing if we hadn't let Streit go. Who would have been better in the playoffs last year, Streit or Bergeron?

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Why is anyone even talking about Markov? I don't trust his aging injury prone body as far as I could throw it. I realize Wisniewski has had tons of injury problems too but Markov will never play at the NHL level consistently again, Wiz is so lets continue that trend...

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Why is anyone even talking about Markov? I don't trust his aging injury prone body as far as I could throw it. I realize Wisniewski has had tons of injury problems too but Markov will never play at the NHL level consistently again, Wiz is so lets continue that trend...

Savard thought the same thing about Chelios knees and dumped him for an almost washed out Savard. Savard retired in a few years, while Chelios went on to play another 15 or 16 years.

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Why is anyone even talking about Markov? I don't trust his aging injury prone body as far as I could throw it. I realize Wisniewski has had tons of injury problems too but Markov will never play at the NHL level consistently again, Wiz is so lets continue that trend...

Just as it would be illl advised to let Wis walk, I wouldn't underestimate Markov he is still in his prime and I would still choose him over 85% of the D around the league

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I would be really surprise to see Wiz back next year.

As much is i would like him lock for 3 years under 4 million this will not happen.

A team will go for his stats, not for his whole game wich his average. Overpaying average

would not be good for habs.

Good news there is PK can take the 1st RD for pennies.

Markov is the only player that could make each player of this team a little better.

Taking this gamble is not that risky, when can you add a player of this caliber

for only money ? Scrap Gomez contract and add as many risk like that i am able to

live with it.

Go habs Go for tonight. Go Isles against Canes. Improve you little Islies wish to see you

in Quebec City pretty soon.

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For 1 year, yeah. If the Habs try and lock up Subban on a long (say 5 year) contract after next season, you could be looking at $11 M for just 2 of the 3 in the season(s) following next. Unless one of Markov (unlikely at this point) or Wisniewski (not a chance) is willing to take a 1 year pact this offseason, you'd be setting yourself up for cap purgatory even worse than this season, staring down well over $20 million on the blueline with a new contract for Price to boot. With none of the long-term forward deals expiring soon and a new CBA with potentially a reduced cap, that could be disastrous. It'd be nice to take advantage of the cheap deals for Price/Subban, but the only way to do so without killing yourself long-term is to find guys willing to take 1 year deals which really limits the options.

Why would they take that route with PK when they didn't with Price or any significant restricted free agent they have had over the last decade.

I see no reason that they couldn't re-sign him after 2012 for a two year deal like they gave Price for a couple seasons at $2.5-3M per.

That would leave him at 850k, 3M, 3M. Re-sign Markov for 3 years at 4.5-5M and give Wisniewski/Bieksa/UFA a 4 year deal at $5M per.

That gives you 3 years locked into those 3 at $13M per. If Hammer/Gill sign for a discount for 1-2 seasons you still have flexibility should Markov not be elite in 3 seasons. The D they have right now makes 15M for the top 3.

I used to think like you with cap flexibility and concerning myself with possible cap reductions and they never came and the teams who did get themselves in cap trouble ALWAYS found

a taker for the guys they needed to dump. Philly/Boston/Chicago/Anaheim etc. all had cap issues and all of them are still in good shape.

The Habs are going to have to dump Gomez when Price and Subban get their money, if they don't they are in big trouble.

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Why would they take that route with PK when they didn't with Price or any significant restricted free agent they have had over the last decade.

I see no reason that they couldn't re-sign him after 2012 for a two year deal like they gave Price for a couple seasons at $2.5-3M per.

That would leave him at 850k, 3M, 3M. Re-sign Markov for 3 years at 4.5-5M and give Wisniewski/Bieksa/UFA a 4 year deal at $5M per.

That gives you 3 years locked into those 3 at $13M per. If Hammer/Gill sign for a discount for 1-2 seasons you still have flexibility should Markov not be elite in 3 seasons. The D they have right now makes 15M for the top 3.

I used to think like you with cap flexibility and concerning myself with possible cap reductions and they never came and the teams who did get themselves in cap trouble ALWAYS found

a taker for the guys they needed to dump. Philly/Boston/Chicago/Anaheim etc. all had cap issues and all of them are still in good shape.

The Habs are going to have to dump Gomez when Price and Subban get their money, if they don't they are in big trouble.

This is one of those rare posts - I agree with every word. :thumbs_up:

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Why would they take that route with PK when they didn't with Price or any significant restricted free agent they have had over the last decade.

I see no reason that they couldn't re-sign him after 2012 for a two year deal like they gave Price for a couple seasons at $2.5-3M per.

That would leave him at 850k, 3M, 3M. Re-sign Markov for 3 years at 4.5-5M and give Wisniewski/Bieksa/UFA a 4 year deal at $5M per.

That gives you 3 years locked into those 3 at $13M per. If Hammer/Gill sign for a discount for 1-2 seasons you still have flexibility should Markov not be elite in 3 seasons. The D they have right now makes 15M for the top 3.

I used to think like you with cap flexibility and concerning myself with possible cap reductions and they never came and the teams who did get themselves in cap trouble ALWAYS found

a taker for the guys they needed to dump. Philly/Boston/Chicago/Anaheim etc. all had cap issues and all of them are still in good shape.

The Habs are going to have to dump Gomez when Price and Subban get their money, if they don't they are in big trouble.

I'm not saying they would, but with a new(ish) management team in place and Subban hopefully coming off a pair of strong years (unlike Price who had an average season in 09-10 heading into his RFA year), the possibility exists. I suspect they'll likely have to make a decision on this (whether to pursue it or not) this offseason if they do want to try and keep both Markov and Wisniewski, or sign an equivalent UFA.

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I'm a sucker for this stuff, but when I see that Wisniewski is taking french lessons, I'd love to keep him. I also would like to see Markov take a home town discount. Nothing major, but possibly something like 4.75 million for 3 years. Dreaming? maybe, but he seems to want to stay. Given he's injury prone, maybe he'd consider it.

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I'm torn. I really like Markov (healthy), Wisniewski, Hamrlik and Gill and have no problem with Mara or Sopel as a 6th or 7th D. I guess it just depends on how much they all want.

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I like Markov but if we lost him again next year it would be a waste.

Wiz is no Markov, but I think he'll be great in the long run.

Thinking Markov will be out again is irrational, as anything can happen, but do we need to take the chance?

I'm happy with our D ( when healthy ) save for Mara and Sopel.

Trade out a couple D and add 2 bigger forwards with scoring potential and we should be in good shape.

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I'm looking at logistics: Markov is a LD, Wiz a RD. At RD, we have Subban, Gorges, and Weber. Gorges could possibly switch to the left side, but he hasn't played there since he came here... so it's a bit of an unknown there. At LD we have a trio of UFAs in Markov, Hamrlik, Gill plus Spacek, Mara, and Picard. Only Spacek should is guaranteed to be back.

Logistically, Markov makes more sense to keep than Wiz.

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I know Markov has his injury history, but in my opinion, his abilities far surpass those of the Wiz. Wisniewski has his upsides, for sure, but I've never been sold on him as a solid defenceman in his own end. He just seems to lose a lot of battles and I've lost track of how many times the opposing team's top lines walk all over him. While Markov may not possess Wiz's shot, I would say that his offensive abilities are at least equal to Wiz's, if not better, and I wouldn't hesitate to use Markov in any situation (PP, PK, ES) against any team's top line.

While I'd love to keep both, I think Wiz's numbers will price him out of Montreal. And since I can't see us signing both, I'll take Markov, please.

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Whatever. Again, if it's not Wiz it'll have to be someone else - at least if we want to contend and not just spin our wheels.

I wholeheartedly agree. I just think that player will be $1M-$2M cheaper than the Wiz.

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I think that a Wiz without this injury and this full face shield is better than a Wiz with the shield. I think it is slowning him down, not allowing him to play his usual style of hockey.

Edit : Do you ?

Edited by JoeLassister
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I think that a Wiz without this injury and this full face shield is better than a Wiz with the shield. I think it is slowning him down, not allowing him to play his usual style of hockey.

Edit : Do you ?

Unless the shield has granted him feelings of invincibility, you're likely right.

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Wiz has suffered devastating knee injuries just like Markov, yet everybody views him without the injury risk because they occurred out of vision with zero emotional attachment.

He suffered a torn ACL playing for the US U18 and tore it again playing in the NHL and tore it a 3rd time.

With the 2002 NHL Entry Draft approaching, Wisniewski was high on many teams’ draft boards. However, a torn right ACL sustained while playing for the United States in the U-18 World Championships in Slovakia dropped Wisniewski to a fifth round pick by the Chicago Blackhawks........Wisniewski appeared in his first NHL game in February 2006. The following year, Wisniewski’s season ended early after tearing his right ACL for the second time. Another six months of rehab and strength training should have led to a healthier Wisniewski. But soon after the injury, the fickle ACL tore for a third time.

The risk of Wiz blowing out his knee on a new contract are probably just as risky as Markov doing it, so I don't understand the fear for Markov and the lack of fear for Wiz (actually I do, it is based on none of us witnessing the injuries or the loss and the rehab).

There is no question who the better player is. Markov cleans his own end up much better and is more intelligent offensive player.

I am willing to roll the dice with Markov especially if they can get him at a discount from 5.75M.

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