KoRP Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I think it was the Cucumber that said this year's draft day and UFA period will be the true indicator and legacy of Bergevin's tenure as GM in Habland, I believe this to be true as well... Great post BCHabnut! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I'm with others in this thread who are getting the impression that Bergevin might think he's knows far more than the lowly mortals in the press and public. So far he's shown strengths - bargain trades - but I'm not sure if he has an idea of his weaknesses. He hasn't added significantly to the roster he inherited, besides Petry, for whom the jury is still out. He has a regressive stance towards stats, which is where the game is headed and is something an organization like the Habs should be able to take the lead on. It's possible that his early successes have gone to his head, and he thinks he's king cheese without any major accomplishments. One thing in his corner is that all his talk of class and character, while maybe overblown, does have its worth. It matters to players that they're treated with respect and the whole organization seems to get top marks in that area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I'm with others in this thread who are getting the impression that Bergevin might think he's knows far more than the lowly mortals in the press and public. So far he's shown strengths - bargain trades - but I'm not sure if he has an idea of his weaknesses. He hasn't added significantly to the roster he inherited, besides Petry, for whom the jury is still out. He has a regressive stance towards stats, which is where the game is headed and is something an organization like the Habs should be able to take the lead on. It's possible that his early successes have gone to his head, and he thinks he's king cheese without any major accomplishments. One thing in his corner is that all his talk of class and character, while maybe overblown, does have its worth. It matters to players that they're treated with respect and the whole organization seems to get top marks in that area. Time for a new nickname? Le Gros Fromage? Bergevin does a great job of building a staff and bringing people together. He bungled the biggest negotiation in franchise history, but I'm happy with his handling of the salary cap. Player acquisition and development stinks. I don't think their young players are as good as they think they are, Tinordi being a prime example; he was labeled a core player and blue chip prospect and fizzle out in dramatic fashion. I think MB is a number 2. I don't think he has what it takes to be the Top Dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuternoga Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Meanwhile Ottawa fires Cameron and assistants. Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 A different way to look at Bergevin's rhetoric is to take it as an indication that this organization does not give a sh*t what the fans and media think - and that that is actually a very good thing. Hear me out. The worst thing that can happen to a team is meddling, image-sensitive ownership. That means your operation is being run by rank amateurs. I was terrified when Molson intervened in the Cunneyworth file that that might be what we've got. However, if Molson really were that type of owner, he would have demanded action rather than trusting Bergevin through this disastrous season. So that's a very good sign; we've got an owner who lets the pros do their jobs. Another danger is that the team's actual management can start worrying about what fans think. E.g., Bergy could say, 'well, I think MT is doing a good job, but the fans are howling for blood, so I'd better make a change in order to lower the temperature, enhance my own job security, etc.' But since the fans will hate MT's replacement with exactly the same vehemence that they hate MT, this would be folly. Similarly, MB could make moves that he regards as risky just for the sake of doing something. But again, that would mean the inmates are running the asylum. Rationally speaking, we should WANT owners and managers who stand by their plan and vision and refuse to be constantly scrambling and reacting without a longer-term strategy. But that means, precisely, not listening to fans and media, who are all about reacting and scrambling to the day's events. Weird as it sounds, our enlightened self-interest lies in team management ignoring us. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Time for a new nickname? Le Gros Fromage? Bergevin does a great job of building a staff and bringing people together. He bungled the biggest negotiation in franchise history, but I'm happy with his handling of the salary cap. Player acquisition and development stinks. I don't think their young players are as good as they think they are, Tinordi being a prime example; he was labeled a core player and blue chip prospect and fizzle out in dramatic fashion. I think MB is a number 2. I don't think he has what it takes to be the Top Dog. Well if your right, we've just wasted the best core we've had in years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 By not firing any coaches after a terrible season, not even assistants (just the part time advisor) you risk the chance of zero improvement. Why the heck is Dan Lacroix still employed by the Habs and why are we not searching for new assistants to support Therrien? Even Gainey had to fire his friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 A different way to look at Bergevin's rhetoric is to take it as an indication that this organization does not give a sh*t what the fans and media think - and that that is actually a very good thing. Hear me out. The worst thing that can happen to a team is meddling, image-sensitive ownership. That means your operation is being run by rank amateurs. I was terrified when Molson intervened in the Cunneyworth file that that might be what we've got. However, if Molson really were that type of owner, he would have demanded action rather than trusting Bergevin through this disastrous season. So that's a very good sign; we've got an owner who lets the pros do their jobs. Another danger is that the team's actual management can start worrying about what fans think. E.g., Bergy could say, 'well, I think MT is doing a good job, but the fans are howling for blood, so I'd better make a change in order to lower the temperature, enhance my own job security, etc.' But since the fans will hate MT's replacement with exactly the same vehemence that they hate MT, this would be folly. Similarly, MB could make moves that he regards as risky just for the sake of doing something. But again, that would mean the inmates are running the asylum. Rationally speaking, we should WANT owners and managers who stand by their plan and vision and refuse to be constantly scrambling and reacting without a longer-term strategy. But that means, precisely, not listening to fans and media, who are all about reacting and scrambling to the day's events. Weird as it sounds, our enlightened self-interest lies in team management ignoring us. Agreed It also lends credence to the fact that the management team isny giving us the whole story at this presser either. Just like last year; they didnt give the whole story on galchenyuk playing centre... i doubt hes giving the whole story on his summer moves either. I think we know way more on say July 5th than we do right now. But fans want instant gratification and to know what is gonna happen now. That instant gratification might not be in bergevins advantage. He doesn't want to put his cards on the table re player acquisition for other gms and agents to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGC21 Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 That instant gratification might not be in bergevins advantage. He doesn't want to put his cards on the table re player acquisition for other gms and agents to see.This.MB seems to have a fancy for acquiring bottom 6 forwards that he says "can help spread out the scoring by not having enough top 6 fowards." However, after all the bodies he moved around in the bottom 6 this year, there's no way he grabs another Stefan Matteau or DSP - my guess is he's going after a top UFA and he makes a ballsy trade. He's not going to say this in his presser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 This. MB seems to have a fancy for acquiring bottom 6 forwards that he says "can help spread out the scoring by not having enough top 6 fowards." However, after all the bodies he moved around in the bottom 6 this year, there's no way he grabs another Stefan Matteau or DSP - my guess is he's going after a top UFA and he makes a ballsy trade. He's not going to say this in his presser. I don't know about the ballsy trade, but if he doesn't aggressively attack the UFA market, he is a buffoon. I'm pretty sure we'll have at least one shiny new top-6 FW come September. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Everybody and their Grandma knows the Habs need two top-6 wingers, and they have for years. If that's the excuse for not firing a coach, it's the most bumbling subterfuge since Inspector Clouseau. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 Who said not having 2 more top six wingers was an excuse for not firing Therrien? I know Bergevin didn't. Are you just tossing stuff at the wall to see what sticks? And CC, "if don't aggressively attack UFA market he is a buffoon", you do realize that there is a salary cap. And why are they that desperate that need to go all-in this off-season? Because of that stupid 'window is closing' BS? What next, because Bergevin had crap education, he just isn't smart enough to figure the obvious out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I don't really see this as one choice or the other. No, Bergevin should not be doing everything the fans/media says. But also, Bergevin shouldn't be ignoring the consistent errors of his coaching staff and letting them off scott free after their worst performance yet. And until he fires someone other than the part time advisor for the powerplay, he's clearly allowing them to waltz into next season completely relying on Carey Price to once again push them to a division title. It's asinine. Firing a guy like Lacroix or J.J. isn't "listening to the fans/media", it's realizing the guys have done nothing exceptional for the coaching staff and then using the summer to find replacements. There's plenty of former coaches out there who'd be available for the job. Why are we fine with mediocrity in our coaching staff? Why is Lacroix and Daigneault untouchable after this season? I get trying to support the team no matter what but come on. Bergevin deserves flack for this. (Funny fact: our PP was better by 0.02% from last year and prior to Carey Price and Brendan Gallagher getting injured, we had the fourth best PP in the league. Sounds to me like the advisor's strategies were working until the wheels came off and J.J. decided to go off course.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 By not firing any coaches after a terrible season, not even assistants (just the part time advisor) you risk the chance of zero improvement. Why the heck is Dan Lacroix still employed by the Habs and why are we not searching for new assistants to support Therrien? Even Gainey had to fire his friends.Lacroix should have been fired two years ago.I'm seriously interested to see what next season brings. There is so much on the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Who said not having 2 more top six wingers was an excuse for not firing Therrien? I know Bergevin didn't. Are you just tossing stuff at the wall to see what sticks? And CC, "if don't aggressively attack UFA market he is a buffoon", you do realize that there is a salary cap. And why are they that desperate that need to go all-in this off-season? Because of that stupid 'window is closing' BS? What next, because Bergevin had crap education, he just isn't smart enough to figure the obvious out? I don't pretend to know exactly what the 'window' is. But the thing is, you don't just assemble a contender for one season and then assume it all works out. You need to have a contender over multiple seasons, hoping that, one of those years, everything will fall in your favour and you end up drinking champagne. Now, Subban, Price, and Patches are all in or entering their primes. Gallagher keeps getting better, Galchenyuk is finally established as a top-liner, with room to grow still. The 'window' is about as open as it's gonna get. This means you need to add those missing pieces, not so that you can win next year, but that you can contend year after year over whatever it is, a span of maybe 3-5 years. If MB spends the next 10 months just holding his dick in his hand, then he is simply negligent. He can't use the argument that we're still building. We're built, with the remaining holes unlikely to be filled from within in the near future. Since signing a UFA is the only way to add a top-6 FW without hurting the team in other areas (e.g., by moving Beaulieu), then he'd bloody well better take advantage of one of the strongest UFA seasons in years. As for the cap, well, that's where ruthless management comes in. Emelin and DD, for instance, are 7.5 mil right there. Find a way to get 'em off the books if you have to. That's why he's paid the big bucks - not to ice a team that can win if everyone stays 100% healthy and Price gets on fire and teams like Washington or Chicago crap out, but rather to turn us into one of those teams, the teams that everyone is afraid of. The time is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 It is painless to add a Top-6 upgrade UFA is it? I think you are fooling yourself a bit, UFA season can be costly in overpay for past offense, or to simply outbid the 29 other teams may need to add that 3rd or 4th year to offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 It is painless to add a Top-6 upgrade UFA is it? I think you are fooling yourself a bit, UFA season can be costly in overpay for past offense, or to simply outbid the 29 other teams may need to add that 3rd or 4th year to offer. UFA is like trades like drafting like anything. It only hurts when you make the wrong decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Yes, you're probably going to regret that UFA contract in the final year or two of the deal. That's the nature of free agency. But there are plenty of UFA signings that, on balance, work out fine. The thing is, we have no obvious top-6 FW in the system, we have a strong incentive not to trade Beaulieu because he is key to our D-corps as Markov wanes, and flotsam and jetsam like Eller, Emelin, DD, etc. are not going to get you back an impact forward. So where's the infusion of talent gonna come from? This seems to be a prime example of an instance where you need to go out and get a UFA. One alternative is that we could trade our first-round pick this year for significant help up front. I don't know how people feel about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 One alternative is that we could trade our first-round pick this year for significant help up front. I don't know how people feel about that. I'd do it if the pick isn't top three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 New Jersey got Corey Schneider with a #9 or 8-10 pick. A goalie is harder to get than a freaking winger, and imo Schneider is top-5 in the league. The dialogue around the team sounds like the end of the Gauthier era; fans and even management can't see ways to solve obvious solutions like buying out Scott Gomez. Make a deal. Throw 6/36 at Kyle Okposo. Do what it takes. Bergevin is like a lot of fans when it comes to term and cap space, a guy like Okposo is in fact worth more than a 25 goal scorer would normally get because the Habs are dealing from a weakness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 Only one or two top picks in recent years were traded for roster players, Schneider was just a dumb move by Canucks. So that may seem like an option, it is highly unlikely to happen. Habs signed Petry, so ended up with not enough cap room to entice a top-6 upgrade. But that now is spun into Bergevin did nothing during free agency and twiddled his thumbs, knowing full well what the team needed. When in fact he made multiple offers and some were overpayment, which Lebrun didn't dispute yesterday. But, if a Justin Williams simply prefers to go to Washington instead, what can you do? Toss stupid term or cash at him, is that what we mean by being aggressive and end up with a David Clarkson Leaf-type deal? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Great post Don! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Am I the only one hoping the habs add... Mike Mccarron And convince these euro's to come over? Atturi Lehkonen Martin Reway Then get 1 UFA who won't break the bank on term over dollars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 Reway is lost cause, but Lehkonen is a big YES. (he currently has 7g 12pts in 11playoff games) And adding 1 UFA forward seems reasonable, but might need to deal away a contract or two first (Emelin, Desharnais or Eller seem likely ones to be moved, which would also make many fans happy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 1 goal 1 assist for 2 points in 20 games... yes you are the only one who thinks Michael McCarron is an immediate solution to the fact the Habs can't score. Any predictions on how Matteau can fill a top six void too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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