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Gorges dealt to Buffalo


dlbalr

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The move is not a downgrade, the 2nd can become a trade deadline chip, much like our 2nd was in acquiring Vanek. Gilbert is a RH puck moving d-man that can help this quick transition team, transition, Georges was not. Gilbert is also adding more size at 6'3, and stylistically makes a great pair with Emelin, allowing us to have 2 pairings that are capable of moving the puck well. Weaver was excellent as our bottom pairing guy, and if one or two of the kids push hard enough he could become our 6th to 7th much like Boullion was.

All of this was done for a few hundred K more than having Georges alone, for the first time in I don't know how long, we actually have 3 Right handed d-men, a solid idea of what the Defense is going to look like this year and where it is heading with Tinordi, Beaulieu and Pateryn all scratching at the door for a chance at full time NHL duty.

This is some pretty good analysis: build on a vision of the team (puck-moving, transition team) and remove the overpaid player who didn't fit the mould. Read this way, it suggests a good move even in the short-term.

We'll see. Much hinges on Gilbert, whom I know little about, and on the youngsters Tinordi and Beaulieu. I guess we just have trust Zoot Suit's vision for the team and his obvious belief in "balance," especially R-L handed balance, on the roster.

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Boyle was offered more to got to Leafs but chose another team (Dan or Brain not sure which, don't matter, nice to see Leafs snubbed again)

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I was hoping for such a move and am very glad Bergevin had the guts to do it. Next I would trade Plekanec, but I doubt that I will see that before the beginning of next season.

Subban should get an "A," but will old schoolies Genius and Zoot Suit be able to bring themselves to do it? That's the question.

Pleks for the "C," no doubt in my mind.

Plekanec won't be captain. I am quite sure about that.

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This is terrible. I had hoped that we could package Gorges for a roster player. A 2nd in two years? Is it because the bridge was burnt when it went public? I hate this.

This is terrible. I had hoped that we could package Gorges for a roster player. A 2nd in two years? Is it because the bridge was burnt when it went public? I hate this.

We are lucky we were able to trade him. His contract was way too generous for what he could bring on the ice.

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We are lucky we were able to trade him. His contract was way too generous for what he could bring on the ice.

That's obviously not true. There were offers for him that included more than we got.

MB took the pick instead because he believed Gilbert could fill Gorges' skates just as well for less money, and he had an agreement to sign him. (He might be right about Gilbert. If he's decent defensively, it appears he brings some offense to the table, and he's a right-hand shot. If you allow your players to play better by putting them where they naturally fit rather than pounding the square peg into the round hole, you can improve by replacing a stronger player with a slightly weaker one.)

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That's obviously not true. There were offers for him that included more than we got.

MB took the pick instead because he believed Gilbert could fill Gorges' skates just as well for less money, and he had an agreement to sign him. (He might be right about Gilbert. If he's decent defensively, it appears he brings some offense to the table, and he's a right-hand shot. If you allow your players to play better by putting them where they naturally fit rather than pounding the square peg into the round hole, you can improve by replacing a stronger player with a slightly weaker one.)

gorges is a warrior no doubt. but this move is great any way you look at it.

-4 million over 4 years gone off the cap for a 5/6 defencemen and yes that is over payment on both term and dollars for a one dimensional player.... please don't tell me he earns his money off the ice and in the dressing room!

-weaver signed to replace gorges character on the ice at 1.75 for only a single season (giving tinordi a chance to round into form)

-emelin replaces gorges spot in the line up on the left side allowing him to flourish in his 2nd year post op (almost all athletes need a full year post op before they really start to play like there former selves. he will also be able to open up and force players outside without having to open up with his right leg..... that is huge in his recovery mentally from his ACL.

- gilbert replaces emelin on the right side!!

-we are definitely a more balanced defensive group

all that remains is the leadership in the dressing room from gorges..... markov weaver will lead by example on the ice and subban is showing how mature he can be saying all the right things at all the right times....

plus we get a 2nd round pick..... win win situation

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win win situation

I won't say it's a "Win-win" situation. That implies everyone wins no matter what happens.

This CAN be a win...but it relies on one of several things happening.

For instance:

-If Gilbert plays as well as Gorges did, then this is entirely a "Win." We saved 1.2 million and lost nothing.

-If Tinordi AND Beaulieu pick up their game and become legitimate NHL defensemen, then this is a win. They're much cheaper than Gorges and could have more upside.

If none of those things happen, we're screwed. But the risk is low...

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The only way this becomes a huge problem is if our defence is so weak throughout the year that we have to acquire a defenceman. The fact we had a winning record without Gorges in the lineup last season suggests to me that won't be the case.

If I recall correctly, when we lost Gorges was the same time that Vanek, DD, and Patches went on their huge scoring tear. We were winning by putting up large numbers.

This compensated for the fact that, in addition to the weaker defense without Gorges, PK Subban disappeared for a couple weeks - it was like we lost both of them at once.

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That's obviously not true. There were offers for him that included more than we got.MB took the pick instead because he believed Gilbert could fill Gorges' skates just as well for less money, and he had an agreement to sign him. (He might be right about Gilbert. If he's decent defensively, it appears he brings some offense to the table, and he's a right-hand shot. If you allow your players to play better by putting them where they naturally fit rather than pounding the square peg into the round hole, you can improve by replacing a stronger player with a slightly weaker one.)

Let me disagree with that. Since Gorges refused to go to Toronto, the next best place was Buffalo and that was a 2nd round draft pick. That's his value, nothing more.

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The issue isn't whether these are good moves for two or three years from now; clearly they are. The question is whether they hurt or help us in the short term. I am equivocal about that simply because of the "known unknowns," to quote that idiot Donald Rumsfeld:

"Known Unknown" #1: relatively few of us know much about Gilbert. Many of us are skeptical that he can fully replace was Gorges brought, and this skepticism is based not on a deep knowledge of the player (who is pretty obscure) but rather on the fact that he's an NHL non-entity, that he is overwhelmingly a "minus" player, and that he was bought out by Minnesota a couple of years back. On the other hand, a bit of research shows that Oilers fans and journalists were quite unhappy when he was dealt to Minny, and you read scouting reports like this: http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/hockeynews/hockey/player.php?2994 If the Hockey News is right, then we clearly have replaced Gorges with a player who can legitimately eat big minutes. Thus Zoot Suit identified an under-rated UFA - his value depressed due to an off-year in Minny and toiling in obscure, crappy markets on crappy teams - and scooped him up on a deal while dumping a bloated contract.

"Known Unknown" #2: how will the kids do? Bergevin has put us in a position where we basically need one of the Holy Trinity (Beaulieu, Tinordi, and Pateryn) to make the big team. This is legitimate cause for jitters because none of the three have seem especially NHL-ready up to this point. Conversely, you DO have to roll the dice at some point, and it is definitely the case that the team needs at least one of these to emerge as top-4 defenders if we want to have that added element needed to get to the Finals. Many of us observed during the playoffs that it was really too bad neither Beaulieu nor Tinordi had managed to crack the squad and make someone like Bouillon redundant. Well, Bergy clearly agrees and is determined to give them ice time so we're not in that situation again. The only way to eliminate the need for Bouillon-like patch-up jobs on the blueline is to get these kids playing NHL minutes.

One thing is very clear. MB has ice in his veins and is willing to take risks in order to hit that "next level." There is legitimate reason to be jittery about these moves, but there's something in the argument that such moves had to be made sooner or later. May as well be sooner.

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Gilbert and Weaver are just plain better than Gorges, Bouilion, and Murray, that is all there is to it......

And...

Who says Tinordi isn't ready for the NHL? We, the internet Boards? Same people that were up for trading Price? Trading Subban? Heatly over Bourque? Those people?

Management seems to think that all three of the princes of D prospects are close.

Last year, with less time to get a true understanding of the teams needs and strengths, MB decided Tinordi was best served playing in the A for last year, to further refine his game, and work on a couple of things that will make him an NHL'er, quick decisions with the puck, and his physical game, those type things. There is a good chance he is ready for next season is there not?

I think he was better than some guys we had last year, but he is young, and it's development that mattered, because he has good potential for the Habs over the next few years, an investment so to speak, no need to rush at that point. There is no doubt in my mind that if given the last full season to learn, he would have been better than, Drewiske, Murray, and Bouilion at least, but in terms of his development, management wanted him to play big minutes in the A.

How Beaulieu(with that flair for brain farts) is worshipped and penciled in to the lineup by fans for next season, can be seen as higher in the depth chart than Tinordi blows my mind, and he could help us in our own zone far better than Beaulieu in the long term.

If we are going to move one of them in a trade, then it best be Beaulieu.... And I for one think our defense is going to be much better next season than last....

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On further reflection we may be better with this defense heading into next year. I've always heard good things about Gilbert (the stats guys love him) and I'm excited to see our top prospects on the big squad.

I'm still sad to see Gorges go in a salary dump. He gave everything to this team.

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why are people saying we replaced gorges with gilbert? when its weaver who is replacing gorges and his shot blocking, chip/ dump the puck, Penalty killing, def oriented game .

gilbert is a 4th defender who moves the puck quickly up the boards and looks for the pass.

markov subban

emelin gilbert

tinordi weaver

beaulieau

pateryn

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Gorges was Subban's pairing. He certainly wasn't on the third.

But Gorges shouldn't have been playing as a top 4, that's everyone's point. Gorges is a true 5/6 defenseman making $4M/year. That's ridiculous. We also had a $4M/year centreman on the 4th line - and Zoot Suit traded Brière as well. Both good moves.

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If Gorges didn't belong on that #1 pairing with Subban, why was it one of the better defensive pairings in the NHL?

Tip: Subban wasn't the reason for the defensive competence.

You guys SERIOUSLY underrate Gorges.

Defensively, he's been as effective a limit on the other team scoring as a Niklas Lidstrom or Scott Niedermayer ever were. Sure, he can't do some of the other things they did, but preventing the other guys from scoring is his only responsibility. The other stuff is just gravy.

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Defensively, he's been as effective a limit on the other team scoring as a Niklas Lidstrom or Scott Niedermayer ever were.

Put the pipe down now dude.... :rofl:

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Well, I think Lidstrom is the best defensive comparison. The problem with that comparison, is Lidstrom was a bigger threat at the other teams end of the ice than the rest of the montreal team combined. Lidstrom was a complete, two way player the likes of which the league hasn't seen at defense since Bobby Orr (I still hope PK can get there someday.) So that comparison only rates a small part of Lidstrom's skillset.

Niedermayer, also had incredible offensive talent. He got props for mixing it up a bit too.

Like I said... Gorges does none of those other things. Gorges has only one talent. It's the most important talent a defenseman can have, but ideally they bring a little more. Those extra talents are the difference between a 6 million defenseman (Markov) and a 4 million one (Gorges). If Gorges could have put up 20 more points a year, he'd be worth more than Markov, simply because he's much better than Markov is in his own end.

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ok come on now. Gorges was a solid defensive defense man. He is a 5 or 6 type no flash no cash stay at home defense man. A great guy to have but not hard to find.

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Lol at Gorges in the same sentence as Lidstrom and Niedermayer.

The fact remains that he was overpaid for his ability, and we would do well to get rid of that equation sooner or later. We took sooner, while he still should have some value, and I'm surprised that we could only manage a 2nd that far off.

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Say what you want, but there is not another defenseman in the NHL today who can legitimately claim to be better defensively than Gorges. A bunch might be his equal (and some of those may have other skills that lift them clearly into another tier), but there are none clearly better at what he's there to do.

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Even a no-name like, Flames Kris Russell @ $2.6m/yr is better all-round and value than Gorges.

Was a Gorges fan, but even Weaver isn't that much of a downgrade at $1.75/yr (both treat pucks like live grenades and still yet to make a good pass in careers) .

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Guest Stogey24

Well, I think Lidstrom is the best defensive comparison. The problem with that comparison, is Lidstrom was a bigger threat at the other teams end of the ice than the rest of the montreal team combined. Lidstrom was a complete, two way player the likes of which the league hasn't seen at defense since Bobby Orr (I still hope PK can get there someday.) So that comparison only rates a small part of Lidstrom's skillset.

Niedermayer, also had incredible offensive talent. He got props for mixing it up a bit too.

Like I said... Gorges does none of those other things. Gorges has only one talent. It's the most important talent a defenseman can have, but ideally they bring a little more. Those extra talents are the difference between a 6 million defenseman (Markov) and a 4 million one (Gorges). If Gorges could have put up 20 more points a year, he'd be worth more than Markov, simply because he's much better than Markov is in his own end.

I'm with Korp. What are you talking about man
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Even a no-name like, Flames Kris Russell @ $2.6m/yr is better all-round and value than Gorges.

Was a Gorges fan, but even Weaver isn't that much of a downgrade at $1.75/yr (both treat pucks like live grenades and still yet to make a good pass in careers) .

Na. Weaver has trouble moving the puck out of his own end and getting the puck up to the forwards or to the other defender. Gorges was a machine at doing so.

Don't get me wrong, Weaver might be 75% of what Gorges was defensively (which is still good), and he's only making 44% of his salary, so he's a bargain.

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