Tomas Plekanec #1 Center!

[JoeLassister]

I sure like Carter a lot. Don't understand why the Flyers lost confidence in him. Plekanec is a lot better than Shaw though.

Was asking cuz they currently are the #2 C of L.A. and Chicago.

Seeing Plex as your #3 C to be considered a contender is a huge stretch.

[BlueKross]

My "diatribes" are based on the proposition that we can roll three scoring lines and that that kind of depth, combined with strengths in other areas, can, in principle, lead to a Cup. This hypothesis leads me to lose less sleep than some over the fact that we don't have a Stud C. Hence, I can sing Pleks' praises while also denying that he has the profile of that Stud C. No contradiction there.

I loved dlbalr's post breaking down Pleks's production. Empirical evidence is always good.

I agree we don't have a number one. What I don't agree with you is about the need for a number one. I have been reading your position right along. What seemed odd to me is that you consistently don't recognize a #1, so if that's your position, why would you even state that Plex is not a number one ?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I agree we don't have a number one. What I don't agree with you is about the need for a number one. I have been reading your position right along. What seemed odd to me is that you consistently don't recognize a #1, so if that's your position, why would you even state that Plex is not a number one ?

Ha ha, this is turning into a Ph.D. dissertation!

1. Our team does not have a #1 line as such but rolls three lines (at least, in theory; in reality, we're rolling two lines and crossing our fingers that someday Eller and Bourque won't suck). Therefore our team does not have a #1 C as such. I don't think it's helpful terminology for a team built along those lines, i.e., a team built to kill you with its balanced attack.

2. This may be a credible model for building a champion.

3. Some other teams do have a clear cut all-star C, a #1 C in the "classic" sense of that term. E.g. Crosby, Getzlaf, Stamkos.

4. Plekanec is not in that rarified category as a C.

5. Therefore Plekanec is not a 'true #1 C' in that sense.

Since there is no contradiction between (5) and (1), I don't see that I've said anything self-defeating. The real point of disagreement has to be with (2), I'd think. Talking about whether Pleks is in the same category as Crosby or Getzlaf or Stamkos serves little purpose.

[JCPetit]

Was asking cuz they currently are the #2 C of L.A. and Chicago.

Seeing Plex as your #3 C to be considered a contender is a huge stretch.

For me he is.definitely not a 1st line centre with a Cup contender. He could be centre on the 2nd line, if we have a bonafide 1st line centre in the line up. But if we are weak on the 1st (as is the case right now), I do believe that the coach will be tempted to give Plekanec too much responsibilities for his ability as a 2nd line centre.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Plekanec is an interesting subject when it comes to "number one center"

He's had a 69 point season and a 71 point season. Since the 71 point season he hasn't been saddled with the best of our wingers. If it was Plekanec between Pacioretty and Cole, would he have still been just a 52 point center? His 43 points last season reflect his monumentally bad 08-09 season of only 39 points. If he keeps up the scoring tear with Galchenyuk and Parenteau and hits, say, 70 points, would anyone argue him as still a second line center?

It's true that Plekanec isn't anywhere near a discussion with Crosby, Tavares, Getzlaf, etc. for offensive production, but he's defensively one of the best centers in the game, a point nobody argues. If Plekanec is a 70 point player this season with his defensive qualities, how would he not be considered a legitimate number one?

We're a long ways from seeing if Plek can keep this production, but it's interesting to me. We know DD can't do it. Eller still hasn't shown anything other than flashes of brilliance. Galchenyuk at 20 seems too young to handle a top teams faceoff requirements but has been great so far as Plekanec's winger. If Plekanec can pull off a 65+ point season, is he still just a good second line center?

[BlueKross]

Ha ha, this is turning into a Ph.D. dissertation!

1. Our team does not have a #1 line as such but rolls three lines (at least, in theory; in reality, we're rolling two lines and crossing our fingers that someday Eller and Bourque won't suck). Therefore our team does not have a #1 C as such. I don't think it's helpful terminology for a team built along those lines, i.e., a team built to kill you with its balanced attack.

2. This may be a credible model for building a champion.

3. Some other teams do have a clear cut all-star C, a #1 C in the "classic" sense of that term. E.g. Crosby, Getzlaf, Stamkos.

4. Plekanec is not in that rarified category as a C.

5. Therefore Plekanec is not a 'true #1 C' in that sense.

Since there is no contradiction between (5) and (1), I don't see that I've said anything self-defeating. The real point of disagreement has to be with (2), I'd think. Talking about whether Pleks is in the same category as Crosby or Getzlaf or Stamkos serves little purpose.

Since you want to deal with #2, lets deal with it. Yes I believe being strong down the middle (including a number one center) is a superior model direction in building a championship, the third step from building out from the goalie.

[Habs30/31]

The "Number One Center" stuff has always been a headache for me. Especially during the Koivu years.

We all agree that you can have more than one number one center (Pittsburgh has two) and you can have zero number one centers (Quick: name the number one center on Nashville!) but what makes someone a number one center?

Based on last year's totals:

- A top 30 center in the league is a 54 point center.

- A top 20 center in the league is a 61 point center.

- A top 10 center in the league is a 70 point center.

- A top 5 center in the league is a 79 point center.

Where do we draw the line in scoring? I recall both Koivu and Gomez used to find themselves in the Top 30 for center scoring but everyone agreed they were not number one centers. Not even, "number one centers at the back of the line".

Look at Bryan Little. He hovers between the high 40s/low 60s in scoring at center. Is he a number one center?

Look at David Krejci. He's a near 70 point center for multiple seasons. Is he a number one center?

Look at Mikko Koivu. He's had a 67 and 71 point season but he's more of a 50 point center. Is he a number one center?

If it's not based on scoring, is it based on minutes? Only 17 centers in the league averaged 20:00 or more per game last season. Plekanec was 22nd for all centers for TOI/G.

I guess I feel that when people say Montreal needs a number one center, they mean Montreal needs a Top 10 center. Then again Max Pacioretty led all left wingers last season in goals and was 11th in LW scoring and there's some people who still think he isn't a top winger in the league so... I don't get some folks logic.

Yes and pleks going head to head with the other teams no 1 centers in the play offs? leave him a huge minus in play offs. In other words, having pleks log that much ice time in the play offs.....is not a good thing.

[KoRP]

Maybe we will see the teams with the top 10 type centermen, be too cash strapped to field a complete roster with balance such as the Habs will have going into these next couple seasons left on Plekanec's deal?

10-12 million on that stud center like Crosby or Toews, and you're one ACL tear away from being a top contender, to a nose diving Toronto Maple Laff place in the standings because your depth is thin after the first line.

Maybe the way to look at is, that Plekanec has the skills to neutralize those type centers, game in, game out, most every game all season and playoffs too, for half the money.

With Malhotra a legitimate shut down center to take the heavy defensive load off him, he may very well score 70 points this year playing with our future top 10, homegrown, stud, bargain pay rate center Galchenyuk.

I think the Habs are closer to a contender than most realize when you consider our star goalie, D man/men(Markov too), and the balance the team has.

All we need is the defense core to gell, and mature into what it has the potential to be, and voila, number 25 is in the books...

[Habs30/31]

Be honest now, I'm just wondering how many of you are being forced to eat your words? It wasn't too long ago that Pleks was being mentioned in every trade imaginable. Now look what he's doing...or wait, let me guess, he's "lucky" to be playing alongside Galchenyuk? Yeah I'm sure that's it...

Last two seasons 22 play off games Plekanic is a minus -12 (worst on team) thats reg season pace of minus -42.......................... if he played in May like he plays

My definition would be someone who can push the pile and contribute in ALL situations. He would also have to contribute to the score sheet regularly. I like your suggestion of the seventy point mark for last year but I would suggest that you stay within pecking distance of all scorers as defining a number one in any year. Seventy probably doesn't cut it the year Orr scored 130 odd!

pleks was 22nd in time on ice among centers.......................and Phenuef was top 5 in ice time for dmen..............whats your point?

in October you would not even have to open this up for debate.

[Habs30/31]

Last two seasons 22 play off games Plekanic is a minus -12 (worst on team) thats reg season pace of minus -42.......................... if he played in May like he plays

pleks was 22nd in time on ice among centers.......................and Phenuef was top 5 in ice time for dmen..............whats your point?

in October you would not even have to open this up for debate.

All kidding aside. I like pleks. Watched him here in Hamilton. Not his fault that the habs took him in the third round over a decade ago and he is the best center they have had in that time other than Saku. He plays as hard as he can never has much after sixty game mark.

Nobody was singing Plekanic praises last spring....or the one before that..........or before that.......or before that.

Habs are not missing the top notch goalie you need to win a cup. They are not missing the stud dman you need to won a cup. They are not missing the 40 goal sniper on the wing. They are missing a good strong play- off no 1 centerman.

[Habs30/31]

The stats don't show that he plays much differently in October than any other month though.

Oct: 71 points in 98 games (.72 PPG)

Nov: 70 points in 106 games (.66 PPG)

Dec: 68 points in 108 games (.63 PPG)

Jan: 69 points in 97 games (.71 PPG)

Feb: 75 points in 102 games (.74 PPG)

Mar: 73 points in 122 games (.60 PPG)

Apr: 20 points in 52 games (.38 PPG - regular season only)

Playoffs: 42 points in 69 games (0.61 PPG, April and May months combined)

From that, you can't really conclude that he's Mr. October as you've suggested before. Technically, it's not even his best month, February is. Over the first five months of the season, he's pretty much consistent throughout. He fades down the stretch before picking up his production in the playoffs to levels close to his regular season numbers. He's far from a one-month player.

he is over all a career plus during regular season

over all a large minus in play offs

and nobody but nobody ever starts posts about how great pleks is playing come play off t ime

014 play offs last led all habs forwards in TIO through17 games, 9 pts, a minus -7 (highest minus among all 16 play off team rosters)

013 play offs led all forwards in TIO 5 games 0 goals 3a - minus 5

Last four play rounds - semis agaInst rangers he was horrible, against bruins medicore, against tbay ok, against sens invisible.

Ya want to be a serious stanely cup contender Plekanic can play on your team................but if he is your best centerman? You aint winning four rounds. Heck last year Lars Eller was bette. Lars friggin Eller! lol

[hab29RETIRED]

Be honest now, I'm just wondering how many of you are being forced to eat your words? It wasn't too long ago that Pleks was being mentioned in every trade imaginable. Now look what he's doing...or wait, let me guess, he's "lucky" to be playing alongside Galchenyuk? Yeah I'm sure that's it...

I've always been and will be a Pleks supporter, but i also think he is our biggest trading chips. Regardless of his start, i'd move him in a heartbeat if we could get a Evander Kane/Wayne Simmond type of player. I don't think anyone has been saying to dump Pleks. But he is one of the few guys that 1) could get us a true power winger with 35+goal potential, 2) of the guys that could bring that return, he is the only one I'd trade.

[Guest Stogey24]

I've always been and will be a Pleks supporter, but i also think he is our biggest trading chips. Regardless of his start, i'd move him in a heartbeat if we could get a Evander Kane/Wayne Simmond type of player. I don't think anyone has been saying to dump Pleks. But he is one of the few guys that 1) could get us a true power winger with 35+goal potential, 2) of the guys that could bring that return, he is the only one I'd trade.

Yup

[dlbalr]

he is over all a career plus during regular season

over all a large minus in play offs

and nobody but nobody ever starts posts about how great pleks is playing come play off t ime

014 play offs last led all habs forwards in TIO through17 games, 9 pts, a minus -7 (highest minus among all 16 play off team rosters)

013 play offs led all forwards in TIO 5 games 0 goals 3a - minus 5

Last four play rounds - semis agaInst rangers he was horrible, against bruins medicore, against tbay ok, against sens invisible.

Using plus/minus isn't the best of barometers to make general statements about players, especially in the playoffs where quite a few defensive centres really take a tumble in that category relative to where they were in the regular season. There's a reason that stat is getting phased out in terms of its usage. I'm not saying it's entirely useless but there are a lot of other stats I'd reference first to make a point about a player.

My post was primarily in reference to your comments about Plekanec being an October player; I believe you called him Mr. October at some point. The stats show that his production in the first five months of the season is more or less the same so no, he's not really just an October player. I believe that the reputation he holds with you as a result is somewhat unjustified.

[sim.on]

I could definitely see Plek surpassing his career high 70 pts with Galchenyuk on his wing and Malhotra taking off some of the defensive responsibilities.

[Habs30/31]

Plekanec is an interesting subject when it comes to "number one center"

He's had a 69 point season and a 71 point season. Since the 71 point season he hasn't been saddled with the best of our wingers. If it was Plekanec between Pacioretty and Cole, would he have still been just a 52 point center? His 43 points last season reflect his monumentally bad 08-09 season of only 39 points. If he keeps up the scoring tear with Galchenyuk and Parenteau and hits, say, 70 points, would anyone argue him as still a second line center?

It's true that Plekanec isn't anywhere near a discussion with Crosby, Tavares, Getzlaf, etc. for offensive production, but he's defensively one of the best centers in the game, a point nobody argues. If Plekanec is a 70 point player this season with his defensive qualities, how would he not be considered a legitimate number one?

We're a long ways from seeing if Plek can keep this production, but it's interesting to me. We know DD can't do it. Eller still hasn't shown anything other than flashes of brilliance. Galchenyuk at 20 seems too young to handle a top teams faceoff requirements but has been great so far as Plekanec's winger. If Plekanec can pull off a 65+ point season, is he still just a good second line center?

yes

[Habs30/31]

Using plus/minus isn't the best of barometers to make general statements about players, especially in the playoffs where quite a few defensive centres really take a tumble in that category relative to where they were in the regular season. There's a reason that stat is getting phased out in terms of its usage. I'm not saying it's entirely useless but there are a lot of other stats I'd reference first to make a point about a player.

My post was primarily in reference to your comments about Plekanec being an October player; I believe you called him Mr. October at some point. The stats show that his production in the first five months of the season is more or less the same so no, he's not really just an October player. I believe that the reputation he holds with you as a result is somewhat unjustified.

Maybe so. Just that I have heard this before about how good Plekanic is looking....out of the gate. He rarely finished well. Lock out shortened season....1 goal in his last 19 games. (a fluke against the leafs) then nothing in the play offs as the habs were out in five games.

I know what you are saying about plus minus. Can be misleading somewhat.......unless you are among the best or worst......whick pleks was in last years play offs....the worst.

Like it or not Pleks has been anything but stellar come play offs. When it counts most.

[sim.on]

Just for comparison, 2013-13 regular season

Kopitar 70 points in 82 games

Toews 68 points in 76 games

Spezza 66 points in 75 games

I know there is the argument of putting up points year after year but imho if Plek gets close to the 70 point plateau this season he is a number 1 C in my books but just not a top 15.

[sim.on]

Just for comparison, 2013-13 regular season

Kopitar 70 points in 82 games

Toews 68 points in 76 games

Spezza 66 points in 75 games

I know there is the argument of putting up points year after year but imho if Plek gets close to the 70 point plateau this season he is a number 1 C in my books but just not a top 15.

I forgot to mention Jeff Carter 50 points in 72 games

[ICEWATER77]

I don't know why we're comparing Pleks to Crosby, Getzlaf, or Stamkos? I didn't mean that Pleks has become a true "#1 centerman" as per nhl standards. He is not, and neither is DD. I was only suggesting that Pleks looks to be OUR #1 center as he Galchenyuk and Parenteau have given us another legit scoring line. I personally prefer them over DD, Max and Gallagher. 1A + 1B is more like it as far as our top lines go. then there's the 3rd line...let's go boys, I still believe!

[Habs30/31]

It was allegedly locker room fight according to rumours. No different to the Three Amigos vs. Koivu's Vets

It was Chris Pronger and Scott Hartnell's camp against Mike Richards and Jeff Carter's camp. Richards and Carter were considered heavy partiers and didn't take the team in the right direction. Pronger pretty much told Holmgren it was him or them. Holmgren went with the veteran.

Similar might have happened in Boston. Zdeno Chara didn't like how Tyler Seguin handled himself and said if he's the captain, he chooses who stays and who goes. Seguin gets traded for "off-ice behaviour" while Lucic, in Chara's good graces, can still get in fights in Vancouver bars and be just as typical. Lucic and Marchand's antics on ice are still not considered a "problem" in Boston while Seguin was a must be moved issue.

Basically if Holmgren felt he wasn't gonna get anymore good years out of Hartnell/Pronger he might have dealt them instead.

Good post. Did not know the details behind those moves.

"Three amigos vs Koivus vets" Could you elaborate on that one? Thanks

[Habs30/31]

Just for comparison, 2013-13 regular season

Kopitar 70 points in 82 games

Toews 68 points in 76 games

Spezza 66 points in 75 games

I know there is the argument of putting up points year after year but imho if Plek gets close to the 70 point plateau this season he is a number 1 C in my books but just not a top 15.

and if he does not ? He is what most consider him. A small no 2 center.

[Habs30/31]

I don't know why we're comparing Pleks to Crosby, Getzlaf, or Stamkos? I didn't mean that Pleks has become a true "#1 centerman" as per nhl standards. He is not, and neither is DD. I was only suggesting that Pleks looks to be OUR #1 center as he Galchenyuk and Parenteau have given us another legit scoring line. I personally prefer them over DD, Max and Gallagher. 1A + 1B is more like it as far as our top lines go. then there's the 3rd line...let's go boys, I still believe!

as Scotty Bowman used to say.............The line that is considered your first line/top line can change game to game.

I forgot to mention Jeff Carter 50 points in 72 games

Are play off stats ever used when comparing ?

as Scotty Bowman used to say.............The line that is considered your first line/top line can change game to game.

Are play off stats ever used when comparing ?

Not with Plekanic I see. ( ;

[Habs30/31]

Yup

Yup

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Good post. Did not know the details behind those moves.

"Three amigos vs Koivus vets" Could you elaborate on that one? Thanks

Ribeiro, Theodore and Daignais were the three amigos. Koivu, Souray and Rivet were the vets. They clashed a lot behind the scenes. Ribeiro wanted the C as early as 2006. Eventually everyone other than Koivu was gone before the 07-08 season.