Permanent Rumour Thread

[DON]

I like Perron's gritty play and he seems a smart player, but will Bergevin mess with lineup again so soon and esp since Eller-Sekac seem to work well together?

[hab29RETIRED]

Oh, I know the oilers wouldn't make that deal - as dumb as their mgmt team is, they are not milbury bad. There's only around 5 players on the oilers I'd want - hall, yakapov, eberle, Schultz and klefbom.

The only guy I'd have traded Perron for is Bourque, but he's already gone. Underachiever for lazy ass bum.

Any Montreal fan would. Instead of getting a guy who's a year away from free agency in Perron, you're getting a player a couple years being removed from being the #1 pick, all for the extra cost of a 24 year old AHL defenceman whose ceiling is that of a #6 guy. Of course the Habs would prefer that deal...there's not a chance Edmonton would though.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I like Perron's gritty play and he seems a smart player, but will Bergevin mess with lineup again so soon and esp since Eller-Sekac seem to work well together?

I think Sekac is gonna play great with anyone so that's no big deal. It's Eller that absolutely needs positive chemistry with someone to play well.

[JoeLassister]

Any Montreal fan would. Instead of getting a guy who's a year away from free agency in Perron, you're getting a player a couple years being removed from being the #1 pick, all for the extra cost of a 24 year old AHL defenceman whose ceiling is that of a #7 guy. Of course the Habs would prefer that deal...there's not a chance Edmonton would though.

fixed/

[DON]

fixed/

not a big fan eh

[JoeLassister]

not a big fan eh

word for word.

[johnnyhasbeen]

I like our current 3rd line and believe the results will come. Yes we lose big when we lose, but we ain't losing often! I'll take that! I am really liking MB's trading ability. He has kept our youth intact. Building for a 5 year run, not a one year wonder. I don't see him giving up Eller that easily.

I like Pateryn as that AHL, emergency call up that won't get swiped on waivers guy. He is a decent guy but won't ever be a star. Doesn't make him useless in a system.

Condon is playing well, Perron for Tokarski? Scrivens sucks and in my opinion Fasth needs to be platooned. Just how high did the playoffs up Tokarski's trade value? Halak's run did get us Eller after all....

[dlbalr]

Condon is playing well, Perron for Tokarski? Scrivens sucks and in my opinion Fasth needs to be platooned. Just how high did the playoffs up Tokarski's trade value? Halak's run did get us Eller after all....

That wouldn't work cap-wise (and I don't see Edmonton having any interest in that offer). Halak played 112 games with the Habs, Tokarski's at just 14, too small a sample size to conclude that he could be their goalie of the future, a strong couple of weeks in May notwithstanding.

[Habs30/31]

Oilers fire goalie coach.

By the looks of the two goalies they decided to go with this season................i smell a back door tank.

i mean really........... Ben Scrivens as your no 1 goalie?

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Scrivens has had a few games where he did absolutely everything to try and save a game and the Oilers just blew it with an atrocious team defensive game.

[DON]

Nice observation by Engels:

"3) Maybe P.K. Subban likes it more than other players do, but when you see him out and about around town, it's fantastic to see how gracious he is with every single person that approaches him for a picture, or a high-five, or a conversation.

Observing from another table at a local eatery, I see Subban interrupted at least 10 times while he's trying to have dinner. He stands up to greet everyone who comes up to him.

On my way out, I tell him that--not that I'd expect different--it's very nice to see the way he treats everyone. And he retorts: "I don't just work here, I live here."

You can say whatever you want about Subban being attracted to the bright lights, but everyone needs their personal space; everyone wants to take the time to enjoy their dinner with the company they've chosen. You hope that grace he treats everyone with never fades, and while you expect it to with many other superstars, it's hard to imagine with Subban.

He really gets it."

[ICEWATER77]

This is the best post I've seen in a very long time

[Guest Stogey24]

Nice observation by Engels:

"3) Maybe P.K. Subban likes it more than other players do, but when you see him out and about around town, it's fantastic to see how gracious he is with every single person that approaches him for a picture, or a high-five, or a conversation.

Observing from another table at a local eatery, I see Subban interrupted at least 10 times while he's trying to have dinner. He stands up to greet everyone who comes up to him.

On my way out, I tell him that--not that I'd expect different--it's very nice to see the way he treats everyone. And he retorts: "I don't just work here, I live here."

You can say whatever you want about Subban being attracted to the bright lights, but everyone needs their personal space; everyone wants to take the time to enjoy their dinner with the company they've chosen. You hope that grace he treats everyone with never fades, and while you expect it to with many other superstars, it's hard to imagine with Subban.

He really gets it."

He loves it.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Nice observation by Engels:

"3) Maybe P.K. Subban likes it more than other players do, but when you see him out and about around town, it's fantastic to see how gracious he is with every single person that approaches him for a picture, or a high-five, or a conversation.

Observing from another table at a local eatery, I see Subban interrupted at least 10 times while he's trying to have dinner. He stands up to greet everyone who comes up to him.

On my way out, I tell him that--not that I'd expect different--it's very nice to see the way he treats everyone. And he retorts: "I don't just work here, I live here."

You can say whatever you want about Subban being attracted to the bright lights, but everyone needs their personal space; everyone wants to take the time to enjoy their dinner with the company they've chosen. You hope that grace he treats everyone with never fades, and while you expect it to with many other superstars, it's hard to imagine with Subban.

He really gets it."

I never believed this BS that Subban was some sort of punk, a bad team player, etc.. He was (is?) an electrifying presence on and off the ice and, in fact, what hockey needs much more of. If he were white, half of this crap would never have come up; if he were white and a Leaf or Bruin, none of it ever would have. The hockey world has finally gotten over the fact that a young kid was handing them all their asses and making everyone look bad with his incredible skill and swagger. Unfortunately, PK seems to have internalized a lot of the criticisms and accepted the need to be a 'safe' player and a 'good boy.' I miss the older, flashier PK who ruffled feathers that needed to be ruffled. Hopefully he is just hibernating.

[hab29RETIRED]

The PK we are seeing is what MT wants him to be. Sean Gorson was just on the NHL XM network, pretty much summing up my opinion of MT, that despite a the teams record, players like Subban, Maxpac, Galchenyuk are not progressing like they should be and he was wondering how much better this team could be under a cooper, Babcock and a few other coaches.

He was also questioning the handling of Beaulieu and Tinordi.

For all those that are happy with MT, you shouldn't be complaining about how Subban's playing.

I never believed this BS that Subban was some sort of punk, a bad team player, etc.. He was (is?) an electrifying presence on and off the ice and, in fact, what hockey needs much more of. If he were white, half of this crap would never have come up; if he were white and a Leaf or Bruin, none of it ever would have. The hockey world has finally gotten over the fact that a young kid was handing them all their asses and making everyone look bad with his incredible skill and swagger. Unfortunately, PK seems to have internalized a lot of the criticisms and accepted the need to be a 'safe' player and a 'good boy.' I miss the older, flashier PK who ruffled feathers that needed to be ruffled. Hopefully he is just hibernating.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The PK we are seeing is what MT wants him to be. Sean Gorson was just on the NHL XM network, pretty much summing up my opinion of MT, that despite a the teams record, players like Subban, Maxpac, Galchenyuk are not progressing like they should be and he was wondering how much better this team could be under a cooper, Babcock and a few other coaches.

He was also questioning the handling of Beaulieu and Tinordi.

For all those that are happy with MT, you shouldn't be complaining about how Subban's playing.

That's a fair point. However, if the Olympics are any indication, Babcock would handle Subban in the same way. So did Martin. That's three experienced coaches all taking seemingly the same basic approach. In other words, I think the treatment of Subban is symptomatic of a much wider problem in the NHL, i.e., over-coaching, coupled with an exaggerated aversion to risk and a sense that all players have to follow the same template even if that is pointlessly repressive of genius-level talent.

In short, I don't doubt that the PK we're seeing is the PK Therrien wants, but I do question whether MT has approached this player any differently than most coaches would have. It's worth remembering that the universal consensus among 'experts' was that Subban was too risky, too flashy, that he needed to be 'fixed.' That probably reflects what most coaches thought too.

Which is the problem. Hal Gill was much wiser than all these big heads when he warned everyone that 'you don't fix PK.' PK Subban is a special player and that should have been recognized. Instead, he seems to have been commanded over and over and over NOT to do the things that make him special, not to take risks that only he can pull off, because players by definition should not 'take risks' even if they aren't really risks when PK Subban does them.

Off the top of my head, Bruce Boudreau is the only long-serving coach I can think of among the coaching elite (Patrick Roy might also qualify) who might have been happy with the flashy PK and understood that 'risky plays' were not terribly risky when he did them, because his talent is so incredible that he gets himself out of jams with relative ease. He might have understood that bone-crushing hip-checks can have a huge psychological effect on both teams and that that benefit is worth an occasional blooper; that stunning end-to-end rushes are not a bad thing, generate offense and keep the other team reeling; that Subban is a world-beating talent at more than just shooting the f**king puck. But no. All of that would be too entertaining, too hard to regulate, not part of The System. It's a shame. These guys would turn Bobby Orr into a 60-point defenceman and Wayne Gretzky into a second-line C because of his 'defensive deficiencies.'

[habs rule]

That's a fair point. However, if the Olympics are any indication, Babcock would handle Subban in the same way. So did Martin. That's three experienced coaches all taking seemingly the same basic approach. In other words, I think the treatment of Subban is symptomatic of a much wider problem in the NHL, i.e., over-coaching, coupled with an exaggerated aversion to risk and a sense that all players have to follow the same template even if that is pointlessly repressive of genius-level talent.

In short, I don't doubt that the PK we're seeing is the PK Therrien wants, but I do question whether MT has approached this player any differently than most coaches would have. It's worth remembering that the universal consensus among 'experts' was that Subban was too risky, too flashy, that he needed to be 'fixed.' That probably reflects what most coaches thought too.

Which is the problem. Hal Gill was much wiser than all these big heads when he warned everyone that 'you don't fix PK.' PK Subban is a special player and that should have been recognized. Instead, he seems to have been commanded over and over and over NOT to do the things that make him special, not to take risks that only he can pull off, because players by definition should not 'take risks' even if they aren't really risks when PK Subban does them.

Off the top of my head, Bruce Boudreau is the only long-serving coach I can think of among the coaching elite (Patrick Roy might also qualify if we remove those qualifiers) who might have been happy with the flashy PK and understood that 'risky plays' were not terribly risky when he did them, because his talent is so incredible that he gets himself out of jams with relative ease. He might have understood that bone-crushing hip-checks can have a huge psychological effect on both teams and that that benefit is worth an occasional blooper; that stunning end-to-end rushes are not a bad thing, generate offense and keep the other team reeling; that Subban is a world-beating talent at more than just shooting the f**king puck. But no. All of that would be too entertaining, too hard to regulate, not part of The System. It's a shame. These guys would turn Bobby Orr into a 60-point defenceman and Wayne Gretzky into a second-line C because of his 'defensive deficiencies.'

Yeah I agree with that.

[hab29RETIRED]

That's a fair point. However, if the Olympics are any indication, Babcock would handle Subban in the same way. So did Martin. That's three experienced coaches all taking seemingly the same basic approach. In other words, I think the treatment of Subban is symptomatic of a much wider problem in the NHL, i.e., over-coaching, coupled with an exaggerated aversion to risk and a sense that all players have to follow the same template even if that is pointlessly repressive of genius-level talent.

In short, I don't doubt that the PK we're seeing is the PK Therrien wants, but I do question whether MT has approached this player any differently than most coaches would have. It's worth remembering that the universal consensus among 'experts' was that Subban was too risky, too flashy, that he needed to be 'fixed.' That probably reflects what most coaches thought too.

Which is the problem. Hal Gill was much wiser than all these big heads when he warned everyone that 'you don't fix PK.' PK Subban is a special player and that should have been recognized. Instead, he seems to have been commanded over and over and over NOT to do the things that make him special, not to take risks that only he can pull off, because players by definition should not 'take risks' even if they aren't really risks when PK Subban does them.

Off the top of my head, Bruce Boudreau is the only long-serving coach I can think of among the coaching elite (Patrick Roy might also qualify) who might have been happy with the flashy PK and understood that 'risky plays' were not terribly risky when he did them, because his talent is so incredible that he gets himself out of jams with relative ease. He might have understood that bone-crushing hip-checks can have a huge psychological effect on both teams and that that benefit is worth an occasional blooper; that stunning end-to-end rushes are not a bad thing, generate offense and keep the other team reeling; that Subban is a world-beating talent at more than just shooting the f**king puck. But no. All of that would be too entertaining, too hard to regulate, not part of The System. It's a shame. These guys would turn Bobby Orr into a 60-point defenceman and Wayne Gretzky into a second-line C because of his 'defensive deficiencies.'

I don't agree - you look at Hedman under Cooper. Cooper himself said that he wants Hedman to rush the puck and gives him the green light. Karlsson has the green light in Ottawa. Even with Babcock, with the olympic team, he had Weber, Doughty ahead of Subban and then that fat Hitchcock had a lot of influence in keeping his STL pair together. I can't see Babcock holding back Subban if he was with the wings.

Don't get me started about Martin. The habs have had two straight coaches now that i have zero respect for. Two guys who have never won anything and will never win anything.

Sean Gordon made a great point with respect to MaxPac. He was saying that despite how well MaxPac has produced with DD, DD gets too much rope and imagine how much better MaxPac would be with someone like Galchenyuk.

You look at Calgary right now, how much freedom Gioridono and his partner (can't remember his name), get the green light and how well the young players are producing.

Gordon also said something that i've been saying for the past 1 1/2 year. Tinordi and Bealueau are not going to learn to be great players in the NHL in the AHL. They need to make their mistakes in the NHL and have a coach that helps them get better. He went on about MT killing Tinordi's confidence, while making the same point i've been making about wasting ice time with grunts like Murray, Allen. Why are they allowed to continuously make mistakes without MT penalizing them, while the kids get nailed to the cross?? He doesn't think that MT is a coach that can make a young player better, or a good player (i.e. MaxPac) into a great player.

If you remember MaxPac's comments about Martin, he pretty much had the same opinion about Martin as well.

[BlueKross]

I thought PK played maybe his best game all year. It is encouraging to see Eller and Sekac get some powerplay time. Prust fits in nicely on that line sometimes, but at other times not so much. I would like to see the GPG line act more as a unit instead of individuals. I am not impressed with Gonchar at all. I would like to see Pax and DD playing on different lines.

[KoRP]

Yeah, I agree Bluekross, Subban was outstanding last night, the best game he played all year, he owned the puck.

Patch would be a 50 goal guy with Galchenyuk as his center, no doubt about it.

[Bostonhabs]

Yeah, I agree Bluekross, Subban was outstanding last night, the best game he played all year, he owned the puck.

Patch would be a 50 goal guy with Galchenyuk as his center, no doubt about it.

How do you know that? DD not get him the puck enough? Thats all he does is feed him the puck. Patches has to go to the net more

[Lovett's Magnatones]

I don't agree - you look at Hedman under Cooper. Cooper himself said that he wants Hedman to rush the puck and gives him the green light. Karlsson has the green light in Ottawa. Even with Babcock, with the olympic team, he had Weber, Doughty ahead of Subban and then that fat Hitchcock had a lot of influence in keeping his STL pair together. I can't see Babcock holding back Subban if he was with the wings.

Don't get me started about Martin. The habs have had two straight coaches now that i have zero respect for. Two guys who have never won anything and will never win anything.

Sean Gordon made a great point with respect to MaxPac. He was saying that despite how well MaxPac has produced with DD, DD gets too much rope and imagine how much better MaxPac would be with someone like Galchenyuk.

You look at Calgary right now, how much freedom Gioridono and his partner (can't remember his name), get the green light and how well the young players are producing.

Gordon also said something that i've been saying for the past 1 1/2 year. Tinordi and Bealueau are not going to learn to be great players in the NHL in the AHL. They need to make their mistakes in the NHL and have a coach that helps them get better. He went on about MT killing Tinordi's confidence, while making the same point i've been making about wasting ice time with grunts like Murray, Allen. Why are they allowed to continuously make mistakes without MT penalizing them, while the kids get nailed to the cross?? He doesn't think that MT is a coach that can make a young player better, or a good player (i.e. MaxPac) into a great player.

If you remember MaxPac's comments about Martin, he pretty much had the same opinion about Martin as well.

I've seen all the guys you've mentioned live in Sunrise a few times. (Hedman, Brodie, Giordano, Karlsson). They might have more freedom to rush the puck, but they're still "safe" players, with the exception of Karlsson, who is completely useless without the puck.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I've always maintained that the idea that Subban is a "risky" defender is a myth. It overlooks that fact that his talent is so transcendently great that he can get himself out of jams 95% of the time.

I don't think MT should be above criticism by any means. I don't like the fact that he has clamped down on Subban's creativity, not at all; and I think that the longer this goes on, the more PK will truly become that nice, safe, 50-point defender they want him to be, rather than the stunning, game-shattering superstar he is meant to be. Therrien's coaching could end up denying an entire generation of hockey fans of the most spectacular player of his era. I also agree that there may be certain coaches - seemingly, a younger generation (Roy, Cooper) that came up after the "dead puck" era ended - who understand that you can do just as well, or better, by letting guys play rather than suffocating them. But most coaches remains committed to over-coaching, and that includes the Babcocks IMHO.

Also, if you're going to attack Therrien, you need to name a specific French-speaking coach whom you think would mark a substantial upgrade. Otherwise it's just wind.

As for the other criticisms: I do think we have to be careful about criticisms based on hypotheticals, as in, "things would be so much better with some idealized coach." This is the analyst's equivalent of Brando's "I coulda been a contendah." For instance: "How much better could MaxPac be with Galchenyuk at C?" All I know is that Pacioretty has been publicly explicit about wanting DD as his centreman, and on more than one occasion. Do we know better than Patches who his linemates should be? Like it or not, DD is a quality playmaker - it's the other aspects of his game that are questionable - and Pacioretty is a 40-goal scorer with DD. The guy is a beast (and has become this under Therrien, I might add). Unless with think Pacioretty has the potential to be Steven Stamkos, I doubt that it's very useful to go on mooning about him doing massively better than that. So this whole line of inquiry is a pretty lame-ass way to "criticize" Therrien.

Then there's the old, old argument that young guys HAVE to be in the NHL to develop. This argument is just plain wrong. The fact is, there is no one-size-fits-all formula for player development. The Detroit Red Wings have made the playoffs something like 21 years running with an approach that tends to let players marinade in the minors, so there's plenty of evidence that that approach can work just fine. Saku Koivu the best Hab of his generation and he had to carve his way up from the 4th line. He did; the rest is history. Sekac has been brought in and given major ice because he's been effective. Gallgher, to some degree Galy, those guys were ready. Tinordi in particular is not ready as far as I can see - he was -5 in only a few games with us, on a winning team. Beaulieu has his own issues. This idea that Beaulieu and Tinordi need to be on the big team and eating minutes irrespective of their performance is basically a religious view. It's not a basis for sound criticism.

[DON]

Well put sir agree with much.

But "meant to be" is maybe bit lofty expectation, sure we all hope he Bobby Orr-lite but a consistent 50point d-man, with a shot at bunch more given a more offensive/higher-scoring team to play on, which may come...or can keep hoping for anyways, is darn good and he also is a PR home-run off the ice for the team.

Likely he may be trying to improve his 2-way game, minimize gaffs and be eyeing up a different letter being stitched on front of his jersey next fall? Which is fine by me, but #67 seems to have inside track on that 2 months in.

[habs rule]

Yeah, I agree Bluekross, Subban was outstanding last night, the best game he played all year, he owned the puck.

Patch would be a 50 goal guy with Galchenyuk as his center, no doubt about it.

nice thought but patches wants DD as his center.