Trade Subban traded to Nashville

[ehjay]

MT had zilch to do with subban's Norris - just like he had zilch to do with price finally winning the vezina and hart. He criticized subban the entire year he won the Norris. It was his 4th year in the league, so you're surprised he didn't win it in his first 3 years in the league before le idiot was the coach???

If anything subban won in spite of the lousy cocach he had to contend with.

Yes man!! Thank you Hab29RETIRED, my thought could not have been expressed as clearly as what you wrote, thank you!!

[Machine of Loving Grace]

It also takes zero strategy to have Crosby score goals, or in this case, Subban to get points.

Pittsburgh wasn't fighting the media saying the team was more than Sidney Crosby. Montreal, on the other hand, were constantly saying they were more than just Carey Price. It was a big deal to the team and they failed last season to prove it. And then the general manager came out, claimed that all the blame was on himself, and next season would be better because Carey Price would be healthy.

This isn't some back and forth. This is the actual reality of the Montreal Canadiens. They can't shake the fact that everyone in the league knows that if Carey isn't there, Montreal isn't a playoff team. Heck, Chris Kreider proved it in 2014.

[illWill]

Pittsburgh wasn't fighting the media saying the team was more than Sidney Crosby. Montreal, on the other hand, were constantly saying they were more than just Carey Price. It was a big deal to the team and they failed last season to prove it. And then the general manager came out, claimed that all the blame was on himself, and next season would be better because Carey Price would be healthy.

This isn't some back and forth. This is the actual reality of the Montreal Canadiens. They can't shake the fact that everyone in the league knows that if Carey isn't there, Montreal isn't a playoff team. Heck, Chris Kreider proved it in 2014.

Not exactly smelling what you are cooking. If a team is missing the best player in the world at the most important position in the sport, the team isn't going to be as good. It's no secret the Habs will be worse without Price, and just plain suck with AHL caliber goaltending. I could care less what management or the media says, as long as they win.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Pittsburgh wasn't fighting the media saying the team was more than Sidney Crosby. Montreal, on the other hand, were constantly saying they were more than just Carey Price. It was a big deal to the team and they failed last season to prove it. And then the general manager came out, claimed that all the blame was on himself, and next season would be better because Carey Price would be healthy.

This isn't some back and forth. This is the actual reality of the Montreal Canadiens. They can't shake the fact that everyone in the league knows that if Carey isn't there, Montreal isn't a playoff team. Heck, Chris Kreider proved it in 2014.

There's never a guarantee of making the playoffs but just for argument's sake, Montreal would make the playoffs with Jones, Luongo, Quick, Lundqvist, Holtby.... I could go on because we'd also make the playoffs with a lot of other goalies like Rinne, Anderson, Varlamov... The list goes on. Montreal didn't make the playoffs with Mike Condon. I think a team like San Jose may have made the playoffs with Condon but there are a handful of teams who would have missed out with him playing as many games as he did last season.

Kreider proved that our backups have sucked in the recent past. Sorry Tokarski, you had a few strong games but could be one of the worst backups we've had in a long time. Obviously Condon was slightly better but it isn't saying much.

Edit: The Price argument is sillyas it is. Price would make any coach look good... Also, to say he's the only reason we win just isn't fair. It really does take a team to win and if anything, the team plays differently (better and more confident) when he's out there as well. It's a vicious cycle.

[Guest Stogey24]

Not exactly smelling what you are cooking. If a team is missing the best player in the world at the most important position in the sport, the team isn't going to be as good. It's no secret the Habs will be worse without Price, and just plain suck with AHL caliber goaltending. I could care less what management or the media says, as long as they win.

No price and this team goes on the worst losing streak in franchise history.

One player's injury shouldn't be able to single handedly fold a team. You need to read between the lines here a bit.

[Scott462]

No price and this team goes on the worst losing streak in franchise history.

One player's injury shouldn't be able to single handedly fold a team. You need to read between the lines here a bit.

A lot of injuries happened last year...

There were so many call ups from the AHL it was ridiculise, blaming the whole season solely on Price being injured seems a bit silly to me

[BCHabnut]

Agree. Most nhl goalies would have helped montreal into the playoffs. They had the worst goaltending in the league

[Guest Stogey24]

It was an injury plagued season for sure.

[Robert Ethan]

LOL, Subban played less than 40 games when he won the Norris. Less than half a season. They should have given him a half trophy or something. The guy gets way more hype than he earns.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

You mean the guy who:

- killed the triple low-five

- played Subban third pairing with Francis Bouillon after he was forced into a bridge contract until it was clear that Subban was the best offensive weapon on D, all while not trusting him to play penalty kill or the final minutes of many games in 12-13 and 13-14.

- when asked if Subban was a world class player was quoted saying, "Whether I see him that way or not, my opinion doesnt change anything."

There's no slippery slope. Therrien used to rip on Subban on L'Antichambre as well. He has never liked Subban. We've known it from the start and tried to believe it was just tough love.

That's just the beginning of Therrien, when he was fresh and got something out of the team. He's way worse now. How does Bergevin make drastic changes to the leadership group and keep him?

[Commandant]

LOL, Subban played less than 40 games when he won the Norris. Less than half a season. They should have given him a half trophy or something. The guy gets way more hype than he earns.

He played 42 out of 48 games that year. I know that math is hard for you.... but 42 is not less than 40.

Just a question though, did the Blackhawks win half a Stanley Cup that year? Did Martin St. Louis get half an Art Ross Trophy?

Oh wait, the entire league played 48 games that year.... he was still the best defenceman in the league that year, like it or not.

Agree. Most nhl goalies would have helped montreal into the playoffs. They had the worst goaltending in the league

Yeah, mid-tier goaltending and they are either 3rd in the division or in the wild card.

[Robert Ethan]

So, he played 1 game more than half a normal season. Still the cheapest Norris Trophy in the history of the award probably. That is what everyone seems to be hanging Subban's superstar status on. It isn't much.

[Commandant]

You're still missing the point, which is that the entire league played 48 games that year.

You are also missing that his entire superstar status goes beyond that and into being the top scoring defenceman in the entire NHL 2012 present.

Another Norris nomination, this one coming in a full season where he was recognized as a top 3 D in the entire NHL.

Excellent play in every playoff series he's ever had.

and a lot more...

But sure lets ignore all that other stuff.

[DON]

No price and this team goes on the worst losing streak in franchise history.

One player's injury shouldn't be able to single handedly fold a team. You need to read between the lines here a bit.

Actually, 3 key players were injured.

[Meller93]

So, he played 1 game more than half a normal season. Still the cheapest Norris Trophy in the history of the award probably. That is what everyone seems to be hanging Subban's superstar status on. It isn't much.

Why would you bother arguing Subban is not a super star? In the last 3 seasons he is the 3rd highest scoring defenseman, and top 50 including forwards. Are you seriously arguing that Weber isn't a superstar as well? Or did Nashville just trade their captain for another mediocre Defenceman?

Brace yourselves for a rant.

Subban has a few liabilities yes, he has more giveaways than any Defenceman but guess who else is up there with him? Burns, Karlson, Byfuglien, basically elite players cause they actually HAVE the puck ALL the time, hence they're more likely to give it away. I gave away the puck over 100 times less than PK last year! And did you know high school dropouts fail less university courses than most university students? Wow mind boggling!

But guess who else on Montreal ranks in the top 18 league wide for giveaways? Markov and Emelin. How about giveaways per game? Bealieu, Petry, Pateryn, Dietz, Gilbert, Emelin, Markov, Subban all rank in the top 100 players league wide. Basically, all of our Defenceman rank in the top 100 PLAYERS for giveaways per game. What is wrong with this picture? Either some aspects of coaching is seriously out of whack (maybe it would make sense if we played a dump and chase system) or possibly, the metrics used for measuring giveaways in MTL are considerably higher.

I got on this rant because I hate the giveaways argument with Subban (even though I know you didn't bring it up). In light of the numbers above you have to think montreals giveaway numbers are far higher than they should be.

Edit: I used this site for the stats. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/stats/player-giveaways-statistic/2015/

[Commandant]

Montreal has over 35% more giveaways at home than on the road (its come down but in previous years it was close to 50%).

This stat is not consistent rink to rink. Neither is hits. Neither is takeaways.

Also can someone explain that league wide, takeaways are like 40% of giveaways? how are there thousands upon thousands of giveaways with no credit for the player taking the puck away?

its completely wacky.

Quite simply there is a reason why no credible writers are citing these stats, and prefer the analytical numbers of corsi, fenwick, etc.... its because they are far more reliable.

[Guest Stogey24]

So is a chip off the glass considered a give away?

[Meller93]

So is a chip off the glass considered a give away?

I doubt it even though I mentioned it in my rant, but I wouldn't be surprised if in some cases a chip is considered a give away

[Commandant]

So is a chip off the glass considered a give away?

It seems to depend on the rink. The fact that the NHL hasn't defined these things makes it a big issue in consistency.

[Toronthab]

"Condon was slightly better but it isn't saying much."

Condons are notoriously unreliable.

Er....

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Montreal has over 35% more giveaways at home than on the road (its come down but in previous years it was close to 50%).

This stat is not consistent rink to rink. Neither is hits. Neither is takeaways.

Also can someone explain that league wide, takeaways are like 40% of giveaways? how are there thousands upon thousands of giveaways with no credit for the player taking the puck away?

its completely wacky.

Quite simply there is a reason why no credible writers are citing these stats, and prefer the analytical numbers of corsi, fenwick, etc.... its because they are far more reliable.

I'd say even shots are skewed at the Bell Center. It's interesting to note that the other areas (especially giveaways) are skewed as well. I think we often end up with a few more shots than we deserve (such as ones that were going wide or a soft pass through the crease that a goalie gets a stick on) but I always thought the argument was that it was Montreal bias. Guess not if we're hurting ourselves with the numbers as well.

[Robert Ethan]

Subban is what he is, and always was. As an 18 year old, he was one of the top scoring defensemen in the CHL, lauded for his skating and end to end rushes. But he lasted into the middle of the second round of the draft that year, because of other deficiencies. He was the 16th defenseman drafted in 2007, the second by the Habs, and their third pick of the draft. The only higher scoring defenseman taken that year was Josh Godfrey who had 1 more point than Subban, and he never made it to the NHL at all. Nothing has changed. He's still a top scoring defenseman who likes to rush the puck at the expense of other parts of his game. Those are the guys who win Norris Trophies. I think the last guy who won a Norris as a stay at home defenseman was probably Rod Langway back in the day. When the Habs had Langway ( who Shea Weber reminds me of a lot) they also had Patrice Brisebois ( who Subban shares a lot of similarities with). Brisebois was the much better skater and puck handler, but I think Langway was always the better overall defenseman.

[kaos]

Subban is what he is, and always was. As an 18 year old, he was one of the top scoring defensemen in the CHL, lauded for his skating and end to end rushes. But he lasted into the middle of the second round of the draft that year, because of other deficiencies. He was the 16th defenseman drafted in 2007, the second by the Habs, and their third pick of the draft. The only higher scoring defenseman taken that year was Josh Godfrey who had 1 more point than Subban, and he never made it to the NHL at all. Nothing has changed. He's still a top scoring defenseman who likes to rush the puck at the expense of other parts of his game. Those are the guys who win Norris Trophies. I think the last guy who won a Norris as a stay at home defenseman was probably Rod Langway back in the day. When the Habs had Langway ( who Shea Weber reminds me of a lot) they also had Patrice Brisebois ( who Subban shares a lot of similarities with). Brisebois was the much better skater and puck handler, but I think Langway was always the better overall defenseman.

Did you just suggest that Rod Langway and Patrice Brisebois played together?

[hab29RETIRED]

Now it's apparent you don't know shit. The Habs never had langway and Brisebois at the same time. Langway was traded over 10 years before Brisebois came in the league. Brisebois was an average dman, despite being the Habs top dman during the dark years of our franchise, but wasn't even considered among the the 50 dmen in the league. Subban has been in the top 5 for the past 4 years.

If you want to base a defenceman's value on draft position, what do you think about Markov? He was taken in the 6th round. Oh, and Shea Weber who you love so much was also a 2nd round pick and went 49th overall. He went later in the draft than subban did. He was the 14th dman picked and was picked behind household names and superstar players like Ryan Suter, Braydon coburn, Dion phaneuf, mark Stuart, Shawn belle, Danny Richmond, Mike egener, Brent burns, Kevin Klien, Tim ramholt, Matt smaby and the great Matt Carle.

What exactly do you do at the university? Lay down manure?

Subban is what he is, and always was. As an 18 year old, he was one of the top scoring defensemen in the CHL, lauded for his skating and end to end rushes. But he lasted into the middle of the second round of the draft that year, because of other deficiencies. He was the 16th defenseman drafted in 2007, the second by the Habs, and their third pick of the draft. The only higher scoring defenseman taken that year was Josh Godfrey who had 1 more point than Subban, and he never made it to the NHL at all. Nothing has changed. He's still a top scoring defenseman who likes to rush the puck at the expense of other parts of his game. Those are the guys who win Norris Trophies. I think the last guy who won a Norris as a stay at home defenseman was probably Rod Langway back in the day. When the Habs had Langway ( who Shea Weber reminds me of a lot) they also had Patrice Brisebois ( who Subban shares a lot of similarities with). Brisebois was the much better skater and puck handler, but I think Langway was always the better overall defenseman.

[Commandant]

I remember that great Brisebois/Langway pairing.... its right up there with the times Doug Harvey and Matthieu Schneider played together... oh and Andrei Markov and Big Bird, that was a dominant pair.