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They can't score when we have the puck


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I'm still a bit skeptical on some of these "advanced stats" to gauge possession. I see them as being potentially useful, but also perhaps overemphasized. Still, it's enlightening to look at players from different angles. By emphasizing puck possession, you completely change the weight of some other stats that people frequently use to judge players as well.

As a quick an easy example - PK Subban's turnovers. PK Subban has some of the better possession stats on the Canadiens, and more turnovers are simply a result of possessing the puck more often. You can't turn the puck over if the other team already has it. Turnovers are not necessarily a measure of how incompetent a player is with the puck - they're just an inevitable outcome of strong puck possession.

Likewise, people who criticize Josh Gorges (I loved the guy) will point out that the hits and blocks he constantly got only happened because the other team had the puck while he was on the ice.

Ultimately, I think there's some balance needed when looking at these things - the other team WILL have possession of the puck some of the time, and a willingness to hit and block shots when needed is a good thing. Too many of them, however, does probably indicate that we're too passive and need to take control of the play.

The reason this came up, is the play so far of Defenseman Tom Gilbert. A lot of Habs fans are criticizing him - he doesn't hit, he hasn't been blocking shots. He turns over the puck more often than we've liked, and he hasn't shown up yet on the scoreboard to warrant his place on the roster. However, the Habs consistently have better possession stats while he is on the ice than when he is not. The simple fact is, Tom Gilbert's presence makes us into a team that controls play, that takes the puck and holds it as long as possible, and makes the other team work to block shots and throw hits rather than us having to do it. This can only be a good thing.

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I can appreciate what you are saying, and am somewhat carefull about the advanced stats meaning, I still believe the "eye test" is more important in really gauging a player's impact on a game. I think all teams are looking at the advanced stats, and think they have merit, but don't believe they tell the whole story, just like the scoresheet doesn't always.

As far as Tom Gilbert goes, I've noticed that paired with Markov, the puck gets moved quite well, without Gilbert being sensational. Gilbert is ok in my books so far, and about what I expected out of him...

And yep, we do seem to have better possession, but then again we aren't trying to play dump and chase as a game plan philosophy every shift.

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RE Gilbert. The geeks get carried away just looking at the numbers. I've read from both Tyler Dellow and Berkshire that Campbell-Gilbert on FLA was one of the best pairings last year. If that's correct, why did they draft first overall? I saw those games, maybe they moved the puck, but Corsi and possession maxes out at around 55%. Defensemen have to be in their own zone at some point. Gilbert is a cheap top-4 defensemen, but don't get carried away. He's not top-2 and he's nothing special, really.

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RE Gilbert. The geeks get carried away just looking at the numbers. I've read from both Tyler Dellow and Berkshire that Campbell-Gilbert on FLA was one of the best pairings last year. If that's correct, why did they draft first overall? I saw those games, maybe they moved the puck, but Corsi and possession maxes out at around 55%. Defensemen have to be in their own zone at some point. Gilbert is a cheap top-4 defensemen, but don't get carried away. He's not top-2 and he's nothing special, really.

I agree. He's not top 2 and he's nothing special. But he isn't paid top 2 money or paid enough that he has to be special. He just has to be a right handed puck moving defenceman to take pressure off of Markov and help us score more goals than we allow.

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He is playing lots, blocks shots well, is +3 and for $2.8m he isn't hurting the team at all (granted he will never knock anyone on their ass, but if he did he would likely make $4+/yr as top 4 guy on another team and not be a Hab).

Could be worse, Bruins might have to insert some dirt cheap d-man to fill in for Chara/Boychuk, due to cap issues. Rask should be seeing a bit more rubber and his stats might not look so pretty for next couple months with 2 of their top 4 d-men gone.

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Yes, I'd be interested in learning how many other players who make $2.8 take the kind of minutes Gilbert gets. Most scouting reports seem to frame him as a top-4 defenceman, yet he is paid like a #5. And he fills specific team needs quite nicely. I won't be one to rag on him too much.

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I'm still a bit skeptical on some of these "advanced stats" to gauge possession. I see them as being potentially useful, but also perhaps overemphasized. Still, it's enlightening to look at players from different angles. By emphasizing puck possession, you completely change the weight of some other stats that people frequently use to judge players as well.

As a quick an easy example - PK Subban's turnovers. PK Subban has some of the better possession stats on the Canadiens, and more turnovers are simply a result of possessing the puck more often. You can't turn the puck over if the other team already has it. Turnovers are not necessarily a measure of how incompetent a player is with the puck - they're just an inevitable outcome of strong puck possession.

Likewise, people who criticize Josh Gorges (I loved the guy) will point out that the hits and blocks he constantly got only happened because the other team had the puck while he was on the ice.

Ultimately, I think there's some balance needed when looking at these things - the other team WILL have possession of the puck some of the time, and a willingness to hit and block shots when needed is a good thing. Too many of them, however, does probably indicate that we're too passive and need to take control of the play.

The reason this came up, is the play so far of Defenseman Tom Gilbert. A lot of Habs fans are criticizing him - he doesn't hit, he hasn't been blocking shots. He turns over the puck more often than we've liked, and he hasn't shown up yet on the scoreboard to warrant his place on the roster. However, the Habs consistently have better possession stats while he is on the ice than when he is not. The simple fact is, Tom Gilbert's presence makes us into a team that controls play, that takes the puck and holds it as long as possible, and makes the other team work to block shots and throw hits rather than us having to do it. This can only be a good thing.

Yes, like shot blocking leaders indicate the puck is in your own end alot when these guys are on the ice. Never seen a top 5 team have any leaders in shot blocking.

RE Gilbert. The geeks get carried away just looking at the numbers. I've read from both Tyler Dellow and Berkshire that Campbell-Gilbert on FLA was one of the best pairings last year. If that's correct, why did they draft first overall? I saw those games, maybe they moved the puck, but Corsi and possession maxes out at around 55%. Defensemen have to be in their own zone at some point. Gilbert is a cheap top-4 defensemen, but don't get carried away. He's not top-2 and he's nothing special, really.

No but he is what they got him for......an improvement on Gorges for your top 4.

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Found one for you;

#1 East team; Rangers 11-12 season, McDonagh/Girardi were both top 10 shot blockers.

(Didn't take much research neither, as I only looked at one random recent year to dig that up.)

So shot blocking by d-men may actually be good for a top team (or any team in general), as is hitting, takaways, save%, etc which can all be related to not having puck/defending.

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Defensemen that kill penalties will get a lot of blocked shots in a year, and shot blocking is prevalent on teams that are collapsing as a defense core, and I hate that shit like I hated those days with a team that needs to hang on and have great goaltending win all the games for them. Boring.... and can only win that way. This habs team can win 2-1 or 7-6, and I like it...

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Found one for you;

#1 East team; Rangers 11-12 season, McDonagh/Girardi were both top 10 shot blockers.

(Didn't take much research neither, as I only looked at one random recent year to dig that up.)

So shot blocking by d-men may actually be good for a top team (or any team in general), as is hitting, takaways, save%, etc which can all be related to not having puck/defending.

Yes it would be good. But its the worst teams that have the lead in it. Similar to a goalie who gets 55 shots a night. He is making 48 saves because all the rubber is coming his way. Dont mean he is a star player.

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