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Gomez playing in ECHL?


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thanks for the info, I guess we will be seeing some of draft choices a little earlier than we thought. That may not be a bad thing. But how do we get rid of some of the deadwood beyond gomez? Kaberle for instance?

If a year of contracts gets eaten and not played, that means there is only one season left of Kaberle. He still has value as a third string offensive defenceman and could rack up some points to make him valuable in the event of a trade deadline.

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thanks for the info, I guess we will be seeing some of draft choices a little earlier than we thought. That may not be a bad thing. But how do we get rid of some of the deadwood beyond gomez? Kaberle for instance?

A lot of expensive players would be getting bought out the regular way as the AHL/European loophole would be closed. Of course, it appears the NHL's proposal places more stringent restrictions on that avenue as well (I'm guessing a higher cap hit percentage) so even that may not be a route teams want to proceed with. Until we see the final deal though, it's all more or less speculation anyways.

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Yep. Habs are screwed, thanks not only to the incredibly Gomez stupid trade that Gainey made, but also the followip trades his idiotic apprentice PG made by picking up the horrible 3 and 4 years that were left on Kaberle and Bourque's contracts, in exchange for Spacek's expiring and Cammelari's shorter and more moveable contracts.

To top that off Bergevin didn't help matters by giving nearly $3m over 4 years to a fourth line goon, rather than locking up Subban, who should be the anchor to the habs blue line for the next ten years.

If the lockout does end, I'll be tossing together an article explaining how the bolded part won't be the case beyond the 2012-13 season. Yes, Gomez being off the books would help but with a proposed $60 M cap with no rollbacks for 2013-14, the Habs (even with Gomez's deal gone) would be in huge difficulty cap wise...as would about half the league. If this does happen as proposed, prepare for a large influx of players playing for the league minimum - although I'm sure some on here would argue that a league minimum player would be better than Gomez anyway.

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It wouldn't be Habs29 if he wasn't grumpily pronouncing doom :lol: but we should at least wait until there is a new CBA before declaiming that the Habs are 'screwed' as a result of past decisions. That said, Bergevin presumably felt certain there'd be some sort of mechanism for offloading at least one horrible contract built into any new deal, otherwise he'd have bumped Gomer to the AHL (assuming he could have done this during the off-season?). If he guessed wrong, that will indeed have ominous implications. But like I say, let's not play Chicken Little until we have actual reason to!

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Ain't even any hockey played and people are already whining and crying about the cap?

I'm the cap guy, I have to think about that all the time. And as I said before, it's not just the Habs that will be in trouble, a lot of teams will. I think most expect that the $60M figure will be raised (and there is some talk that the PA may seek a player exemption that could also be of help) so hopefully it won't be as big of a concern. But at the proposed numbers, there's no denying that Montreal would be a team in quite a bit of difficulty for that one year. After that, a lot of contracts expire so it wouldn't be a major long-term problem which can't be said for a few teams around the league.

That said, Bergevin presumably felt certain there'd be some sort of mechanism for offloading at least one horrible contract built into any new deal, otherwise he'd have bumped Gomer to the AHL (assuming he could have done this during the off-season?). If he guessed wrong, that will indeed have ominous implications. But like I say, let's not play Chicken Little until we have actual reason to!

Even if Gomez was sent to the AHL during the special September waiver period, that wouldn't alleviate his cap hit when the lockout ends. Everything the NHL has proposed has the AHL loophole being closed (and even high paid guys on two-way deals would have an NHL cap hit) so regardless of where he played, the cap situation would be the same either way.

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Brian I am pretty sure that I read that the buyout scenario (amnesty) is a 100% buy out and not the 2/3 that we are used to. I am very suprised the owners would agree to that. Have you heard anything?

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Brian I am pretty sure that I read that the buyout scenario (amnesty) is a 100% buy out and not the 2/3 that we are used to. I am very suprised the owners would agree to that. Have you heard anything?

I believe that was the case the last time as well (known as compliance buyouts) although I can't find anything in the old CBA that supports or refutes that. It doesn't surprise me that it would be done that way though. The cheaper owners don't want to give the more rich ones any advantages and an amnesty would be one. So if those owners get that advantage, they should have to pay in full for their mistakes.

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The proposal from the owners did allow one amnesty exemption that would not count against the team cap, (but would be included in the HRR calculation, which obviously hurts the players). However even with Gomez as an amnesty buyout, the habs will be over $60m next year. Having Kaberle at $4.3m, bourque at around $3.5m and Prust for almost $3m (both for around 3 more years after this year!) is not going to help. I think unless beige in can somehow unload at least one of these contracts, the habs will be screwed, since they still need to sign around 5 guys, one of whom is Subban. Things will be tight next year, even if the cap is as high as $65m and we do use the amnesty buyout on Gomez.

Some of the other teams like Vancouver or Philly that are over the cap,, at least can move some of their bad contracts (i.e. luongo), since there will be a market for those guys, but who would be dumb enough to take Kaberle, Prust or bourque, now that PG or Milbury don't have jobs. For a team like the flyers, they have the cash to bite the bullet and use the amnesty buyout and bryzghalov and then move some of their other high priced contracts, because there will still be a market for them, but whose going to want our three cap anchors?

I believe that was the case the last time as well (known as compliance buyouts) although I can't find anything in the old CBA that supports or refutes that. It doesn't surprise me that it would be done that way though. The cheaper owners don't want to give the more rich ones any advantages and an amnesty would be one. So if those owners get that advantage, they should have to pay in full for their mistakes.

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The proposal from the owners did allow one amnesty exemption that would not count against the team cap, (but would be included in the HRR calculation, which obviously hurts the players). However even with Gomez as an amnesty buyout, the habs will be over $60m next year. Having Kaberle at $4.3m, bourque at around $3.5m and Prust for almost $3m (both for around 3 more years after this year!) is not going to help. I think unless beige in can somehow unload at least one of these contracts, the habs will be screwed, since they still need to sign around 5 guys, one of whom is Subban. Things will be tight next year, even if the cap is as high as $65m and we do use the amnesty buyout on Gomez.

Some of the other teams like Vancouver or Philly that are over the cap,, at least can move some of their bad contracts (i.e. luongo), since there will be a market for those guys, but who would be dumb enough to take Kaberle, Prust or bourque, now that PG or Milbury don't have jobs. For a team like the flyers, they have the cash to bite the bullet and use the amnesty buyout and bryzghalov and then move some of their other high priced contracts, because there will still be a market for them, but whose going to want our three cap anchors?

Good points...but could we at least give Prust a chance before throwing him under the bus?

Kaberle needs to come back strong. His stock was artificially deflated by starting last season out of shape. If he plays well this year, there is a chance of moving him at the deadline. Playoff teams can always use puck-moving defencemen.

You were 100% correct about Bourque and nobody but nobody is going to relieve us of that hunk of crap.

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- Canadiens currently have a cap of $63M

- Cap is to drop to $60M in 2013-2014, not 2012-2013

- Gomez gone equals $7.3M in extra cap space

- Armstrong, Nokia, Boullion, Budaj equals $4.22M

- Montreal will have around $10M to spend on a back-up goaltender and re-sign Desharnais, White, Weber, Subban.

It's really not a doomsday scenario. Come 2014-2015, Kaberle and Gionta come off the cap for close to $10M in space. Every team has some bad contracts on their cap, the Stanley Cup winning LA Kings included. Bergevin doesn't have to be a cap genius to get it done.

Good points...but could we at least give Prust a chance before throwing him under the bus?

Kaberle needs to come back strong. His stock was artificially deflated by starting last season out of shape. If he plays well this year, there is a chance of moving him at the deadline. Playoff teams can always use puck-moving defencemen.

You were 100% correct about Bourque and nobody but nobody is going to relieve us of that hunk of crap.

Prust is a need and focusing on his money is ignoring what he brings to the ice. Kaberle doesn't have to be that much to the team. Merely a third string offensive defenceman. Bourque on the right wing is a 20+ goal scorer. Bourque on the left wing is a 10 goal disappointment. It's all about how Therrien manages his wingers.

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- Canadiens currently have a cap of $63M

- Cap is to drop to $60M in 2013-2014, not 2012-2013

- Gomez gone equals $7.3M in extra cap space

- Armstrong, Nokia, Boullion, Budaj equals $4.22M

- Montreal will have around $10M to spend on a back-up goaltender and re-sign Desharnais, White, Weber, Subban.

It's really not a doomsday scenario. Come 2014-2015, Kaberle and Gionta come off the cap for close to $10M in space. Every team has some bad contracts on their cap, the Stanley Cup winning LA Kings included. Bergevin doesn't have to be a cap genius to get it done.

No one is saying the cap would be a challenge this year (2012-13), they'll have the money to sign Subban even with Gomez. As you said, the cap is to drop to $60 M next season. Here's the rough numbers:

Payroll currently committed for '13-14: $60.16M (I'll use Capgeek's numbers as they're easier for everyone to reference)

Buyout Gomez equals: $52.8M cap payroll

However, that doesn't include a contract for Subban, an extension for Desharnais, a backup goalie, another defenceman, and 2-3 more forwards, one of which is Galchenyuk whose cap hit with bonuses is $3.225M. Also keep in mind Pacioretty moves from $1.625M in '12-'13 to $4.5M the following year which isn't reflected in your numbers.

On the conservative side, let's give Subban $4M, Desharnais $3M, and assume Galchenyuk hits some bonuses to put him in the $1.75M range. That's a little over $61.5M already without a backup goalie, another defenceman, and another forward. Even on minimum deals for all 3 of those spots, they're looking at a good $3.5-5.5 million (depending on your estimates) to shave, even with Gomez off the books via an amnesty buyout.

That said, I do expect that number ($60M) will come up a bit which should make it a bit more easy to manage but a decent amount of work would still be needed. Unfortunately trading for that season will be very difficult as half the league will be looking to shed money as they will be in similar situations...unless that cap number comes back to last years' numbers. It's certainly not doomsday but it's not nothing either, 2013-14 will be a challenging year cap wise at a $60M number. As you noted with the expiring contracts after that season, it won't be a long-term issue which is nice.

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Buyout as outlined in the current CBA discussions is that the buyout won't affect the cap. That's why it's an amnesty buyout.

I did forget about Pacioretty. I still don't see it as much of a challenge. If there's a guy we were overpaying, it's Budaj. Getting a decent backup shouldn't cost the Canadiens more than $1M. Also, any player looking for a new contract is going to have to consider team cap and some players are going to take short term cuts. Probably why Subban didn't sign immediately. He likely wanted to see the numbers and figure out when the best time to sign a long term deal would be. He'll likely sign a one year under value so he can take more money once Markov and Kaberle are both at UFA status and he can become the highest paid defenceman without issue. Guys like Desharnais are going to have to take less than what his points would demand because lets face it, as an undersized centerman in the NHL his value is going to be low. Lower than $3M.

In the end, I still feel that worrying about the cap due to Kaberle and Bourque is wasted sweat. If Bergevin is a good GM like we believe he can be, he'll figure it out. Again, I don't really care anymore how much individual players cost or what the teams overall cap is. It's something we as hardcore fans have though matters when it doesn't. The Chicago Blackhawks handled their cap terribly and it didn't stop them from winning a Cup or being a playoff team.

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From all reports, Kaberle has done nothing in the Czech league, so I don't think he will be much better in Montreal. As far as Prust, I'm sure he will be a good 4th liner, good on the PK and possibly even a 3rd liner. He won't even come close to being the bust that useless bum laraque was. However, he will never live up to the level if performance that should be expected given the salary and term he got - which is almost double what Gainey gave to Laracque.

Good points...but could we at least give Prust a chance before throwing him under the bus?

Kaberle needs to come back strong. His stock was artificially deflated by starting last season out of shape. If he plays well this year, there is a chance of moving him at the deadline. Playoff teams can always use puck-moving defencemen.

You were 100% correct about Bourque and nobody but nobody is going to relieve us of that hunk of crap.

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Chicago got into a mess by Tallon not submitting qualifying offers on time. With the exception of Huet and Campbell, they were actually paying big bucks to the right guys. The big difference was that they were actually able to dump huet to Europe and ate his salary (something the habs didn't do with Gomez), and unlike Kaberle, Campbell was at least a top 4 dman and was still producing. Paying $4.3m for at best a #6 dman in a cap system is asinine - particularly considering what they are paying Markov, gorges and with Subban needing a significant raise.

From all reports, Kaberle has done nothing in the Czech league, so I don't think he will be much better in Montreal. As far as Prust, I'm sure he will be a good 4th liner, good on the PK and possibly even a 3rd liner. He won't even come close to being the bust that useless bum laraque was. However, he will never live up to the level if performance that should be expected given the salary and term he got - which is almost double what Gainey gave to Laracque.

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Buyout as outlined in the current CBA discussions is that the buyout won't affect the cap. That's why it's an amnesty buyout.

I did forget about Pacioretty. I still don't see it as much of a challenge. If there's a guy we were overpaying, it's Budaj. Getting a decent backup shouldn't cost the Canadiens more than $1M. Also, any player looking for a new contract is going to have to consider team cap and some players are going to take short term cuts. Probably why Subban didn't sign immediately. He likely wanted to see the numbers and figure out when the best time to sign a long term deal would be. He'll likely sign a one year under value so he can take more money once Markov and Kaberle are both at UFA status and he can become the highest paid defenceman without issue. Guys like Desharnais are going to have to take less than what his points would demand because lets face it, as an undersized centerman in the NHL his value is going to be low. Lower than $3M.

In the end, I still feel that worrying about the cap due to Kaberle and Bourque is wasted sweat. If Bergevin is a good GM like we believe he can be, he'll figure it out. Again, I don't really care anymore how much individual players cost or what the teams overall cap is. It's something we as hardcore fans have though matters when it doesn't. The Chicago Blackhawks handled their cap terribly and it didn't stop them from winning a Cup or being a playoff team.

Teams will get one 'cap-free' buyout as proposed, I did include Gomez as the amnesty buyout in my numbers so those don't change any. As you note, one year deals for guys like Subban/Desharnais are certainly possible which could make their short-term deals a bit lower but probably not enough to entirely wipe out the overage. A regular buyout of one of the higher paid players will probably be necessary to bridge some of that potential overage.

Speaking of Gomez and the ECHL (on-topic), he hasn't played for the better part of two weeks. I mention this as if he is hurt (I don't see him on an injury list but I don't know), it could potentially prohibit any buyout attempt.

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From what I understand the buyout option in the owners proposal, the amnesty buyout is not for this year, it can't happen until June.

If Gomez did get hurt in the ECHL, wouldn't that be grounds for voiding his contract?

Teams will get one 'cap-free' buyout as proposed, I did include Gomez as the amnesty buyout in my numbers so those don't change any. As you note, one year deals for guys like Subban/Desharnais are certainly possible which could make their short-term deals a bit lower but probably not enough to entirely wipe out the overage. A regular buyout of one of the higher paid players will probably be necessary to bridge some of that potential overage.

Speaking of Gomez and the ECHL (on-topic), he hasn't played for the better part of two weeks. I mention this as if he is hurt (I don't see him on an injury list but I don't know), it could potentially prohibit any buyout attempt.

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From what I understand the buyout option in the owners proposal, the amnesty buyout is not for this year, it can't happen until June. If Gomez did get hurt in the ECHL, wouldn't that be grounds for voiding his contract?

That wouldn't affect my numbers any, although it would make this year's cap a little tighter (but still manageable).

As for grounds for termination, unless there is something specific in there that says if he plays elsewhere and gets hurt that it is immediate grounds for release, then it's not. That's not something in a standard contract so I wouldn't expect him to have something like that.

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Chicago got into a mess by Tallon not submitting qualifying offers on time. With the exception of Huet and Campbell, they were actually paying big bucks to the right guys. The big difference was that they were actually able to dump huet to Europe and ate his salary (something the habs didn't do with Gomez), and unlike Kaberle, Campbell was at least a top 4 dman and was still producing. Paying $4.3m for at best a #6 dman in a cap system is asinine - particularly considering what they are paying Markov, gorges and with Subban needing a significant raise.

How you can even compare a 4.25 million defenceman to one who was a cap hit of 7.142 million is insanity.

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I'm no doubt in a minority, but I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to 'blame' Gauthier and Gainey if we get into cap trouble due to a huge CBA rollback. It is 100% fair to say that we have some dubious contracts (and in the case of Gomez, one cataclysmically bad one) - for sure that's a valid criticism - but those GMs made deals according to the CBA environment they were in, and it's silly to attack them for not making deals designed to suit an entirely different cap context.

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I'm no doubt in a minority, but I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to 'blame' Gauthier and Gainey if we get into cap trouble due to a huge CBA rollback. It is 100% fair to say that we have some dubious contracts (and in the case of Gomez, one cataclysmically bad one) - for sure that's a valid criticism - but those GMs made deals according to the CBA environment they were in, and it's silly to attack them for not making deals designed to suit an entirely different cap context.

It's a fair assessment for sure. I think most would agree the expectation all along was that the cap would go down. The prevailing assumption last season was that the reduction would be achieved by way of rollbacks (at least in part). It turns out that this assumption was wrong.

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How you can even compare a 4.25 million defenceman to one who was a cap hit of 7.142 million is insanity.

Both are horrible contracts - the Huet and Campbell contracts are the types of contracts that i really don't get the media's lovefest with Tallon.

Having said that I think Campbell eleven at $7m is a more useful player than Kaberle. Both are soft one demensiomal players, but at least Campbell puts forth a more consistent effort (not always reflected on the scoresheet). Kaberle on the other hand suffers from extreme "Kovolitis" otherwise known as I'll show up every second game or so.

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I'm no doubt in a minority, but I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to 'blame' Gauthier and Gainey if we get into cap trouble due to a huge CBA rollback. It is 100% fair to say that we have some dubious contracts (and in the case of Gomez, one cataclysmically bad one) - for sure that's a valid criticism - but those GMs made deals according to the CBA environment they were in, and it's silly to attack them for not making deals designed to suit an entirely different cap context.

I get that they were operating in the existing system, but NO ONE in the league had any interest in Gomez, other then Gainey. The prevailing wisdom was that Sather would have to throw in other players to get rid of the Gomez contract, Gainey instead offered our top defensive prospect. I guess we should be thankful that his proposed sub an, Pleks, plus others for cousin Vinny was shot down by the stupid Tampa ownership. Gainey also didn't seem to know how the system worked when we lost hainsey and beaches in for nothing. Traded riviera for a washed up Lumme, grabs for some pucks.

Ditto with PG. NO ONE wanted Kaberle's contract. He didn't even get any pucks for SK74. No one wanted Bourque. Kelly Hrudy skewered him on national television 3 weeks in a row and he was a regular whipping boy of the Calgary media. I still think Cammy would have had value on the deadline or the draft.

Both Gainey and PG were operating in the existing system, but they were operating like milbury, rather than say Holland or lamirillo. In my opinion the only thing that separates PG from Houle is that Houle was allowed to hold onto his job a lot longer.

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