DON Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 DD would not be considered a good 2 way centre, sometimes he backchecks hard and other times doesn't. And Eller seems to be improving on faceoffs and expect a better regular season. Bourque's playoff streak was just that, and he is a shit-leopard that is too old/rich to change his spots and improve, I don't see 81-17's playoff success as the same. Bourque likely in for another 10-15 goal and 1 assist reg season. (19 assist total in last 3 years, for the icetime he gets, that has to be worst of any top 9 forward in league) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Like everyone else, I see Eller's potential. It's impressive. He can be a 50-60 point, two-way C an a quality Pleks replacement - with size to boot. But the love affair some posters here have with him is based on a complete confusion between what he might eventually deliver and what he has actually delivered up to this point. Eller has NOT improved every single year. Last season was a regression relative to the season before - and that's not saying much, because he wasn't particularly impressive the year before either. What Eller has done is look really good in short spurts. He looked fabulous for three weeks in the playoffs. He looked great in October 2013. He was coming on before he got crushed against Ottawa. And so forth. But other than those brief stretches, he has been a nearly useless piece of crap, not fit to hold Pleks' jockstrap. That's to say that, for months and months on end, he's been a dud. Desharnais is in fact a much better player at this point in their careers, except for those brief spurts I mentioned. It's grossly unfair to DD to deny this. Indeed, Desharnais's career pattern in more or less an inverse of Eller's: where Lars has mostly been mediocre with a couple of impressive spurts, DD has been reliably productive with one bizarre 20-game slump where he was completely useless. You know some other players that looked really terrific in brief spurts? Brian Savage, Jan Bulis, Richard Zednik and Andrei Kostitsyn. Have a look at how their careers went before being prepared to anoint Lars Eller the greatest thing since sliced bread. Eller needs to put together a sustained stretch of several months before I'll be prepared to say he is a bona-fide player the Habs can bank on. Finally: as for our FW configuration, I'm leery. Eller, Bourque, and Sekac are three players who simply cannot be counted on at this stage. Parenteau is an offensive upgrade on Gio, but also less reliable game in and game out. 3-4 question marks seems like a lot to carry in your top-9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 As the line up stands today, my first scrimmage would have these lines, I think it gives the best balance of speed, possession and size/strength on each line.... 5 on 5 of course... Pacioretty - Desharnais - Parenteau Galchenyuk - Eller - Gallagher Bourque - Plekanec - Weise Bournival - Malhotra - Prust Xtra- Moen, Sekac, Andrighetto, Whoever.... Emelin - Subban Markov - Gilbert Tinordi - Weaver Xtra Beaulieu, Pateryn Price Tokarski First order of business, trade bait personnel- Moen, Bourque, Andrighetto, Beaulieu, Pateryn, Bournival, Budaj and/or combined with picks, whatever it takes to get that top 3 projected forward to make the Habs a real contender. Make up 3rd and 4th line wings out of what's left, with Pleks and Malhottra as centers..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 13pts in 17 playoff games and a plus 6 rating 14 goals, 18 points in 24 playoff games is even better. Oh right, that was Fernando Pisani. Wonder where that guy is now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 14 goals, 18 points in 24 playoff games is even better. Oh right, that was Fernando Pisani. Wonder where that guy is now... Yeah, because that's relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbigbear Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Eller has NOT improved every single year. Last season was a regression relative to the season before - and that's not saying much, because he wasn't particularly impressive the year before either.What Eller has done is look really good in short spurts. I would have to disagree, Thef Chucky-Eller-Gally line was great for the first 15-18 games or so. Once Gally was put with the DD line because it was not producing at all, Chucky and Eller didn't have a winger to replace Gally. Funny how PAC and DD needed another player for them to be competitive. Shortly afterwards, Chucky was injured for quite a while. From that point on, Eller had to work alone, Bourque was season-Bourque. Eller on many nights had to do it all by himself. Saying that he did not improve isn't true, MT would put him on the ice when the games were tight at the end of the 3rd. He's one of the only players able to stick handle the puck from end to end consistently. Imagine if he was given more PP time, glad that Gio is gone. Eller will produce given the chances. It's good to see the various choices the HABS have compared to the LEAFS would continue to surprise me with their lack of long term planning. Go HABS GO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Excuses, excuses. I heard (and in some cases even perpetrated) all the same stuff about Savage, Latendresse, Perezhogin, Kostitsyn, Jan Buils, etc., etc.. Their failures were always someone else's fault. "If only he played with X..." "If only he got PP time..." "If only the coach used him differently..." La la la. And almost always it turns out that it wasn't anyone else's fault. They just sucked. Lars was basically a steaming hunk of crap from November to April. The guy had 26 points in 77 games and was an appalling -15 even with those first 3-4 weeks where he was among the league leaders. In other words, his production completely disappeared thereafter. (This after a season in which he got 30 points in 45 games and was a +8; if that's not regression, what is?). And don't try to tell me he was reliable defensively; his +/- was worst on the team despite Pleks getting the tough defensive minutes, and if I remember right he was total disaster in Jan-Feb defensively. Yes, he can stickhandle, but that's different from using the ice or his teammates properly. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to rip the guy or say he will never fulfill his potential. Maybe he will and maybe he won't. I'm pulling for the kid. Just don't try to sell me on this delusion that potential = reality. I've seen WAAAY too much "potential" go nowhere over the years to buy that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Larry +6 in real season Plekanec -7. 54 point pace in 2012-13 #1 faceoff centre on team his year. So you realistically think he will put up <30points, be bad +/- (relative to teammates) next year and you really don't expect him to do better? Or more that you don't want to get your hopes up because you were disappointed with some past prospects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Eller never gets put on the ice against the best offenses in the rest of the league. Plekanec only gets put on the ice against the best offenses in the rest of the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link67 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 "As he has in the past?" Lars Eller has never delivered over a complete season. Yes, he managed 30 points in the lockout shortened 48 game season. Sadly, that's the best total of 4 year NHL career. As I said, if he gets 40 points this year, he can earn himself a place on the team -- but he can't STAY at 40 points. We need to see constant improvement. If he's not hitting 50+ every season, he's not what we need. Galchenyuk has the potential to be a 90+ point guy, if we start using him where he's best. This is what we're holding back by keeping 25 points-a-year Lars Eller at Center. In what team does the 3rd line center hit 50 points in a season? Eller can be a Productive Center, the "Spurts" people talk about are when he plays stretches with guys like Galchenyuk and Gallagher, not a hibernating Bourque, and top 6 forward Prust. The moment management feel he can Defensively handle any mission, is the moment we need to move the pieces out of the way to get him on the second line playing a full season with the Gally's. His spurts always align with who he is playing with, everyone remembers the tear he was on in October, he was with the Gally's. They had to break the line up because DD and Max couldn't get it together and needed Gallagher to perform CPR on the line. In the end he is the one who suffered production wise. He was hot during the last month of the shortened season, once again he was with the Gally's at the time called the EGG line, and then he got hammered into hyper space. His production does not meet the expectation placed on him based on where he was drafted, and his potential ceiling, but the thing that should actually be considered more than anything is his current role vs production. Is a guy scoring in the 15 goal range from the 3rd line, with no PP time of consequence to speak of really pooping the bed in anyone's eyes? Would we even be having this conversation if he played on the EGG line for 70+ games and some decent PP time? When I consider some of the 3rd line centers we have had in the past, and their production in comparison, Eller is by no means way under achieving from that spot. In fact if you look at some other Centers around the league in similar positions you will find very little difference. Brandon Sutter in Pittsburgh, 13 goals 26 points from the 3rd line, 24 years old. Mike Richards in LA, 11 goals 41 points, a 29 year old vet. Steve Ott, 9 goals, 23 points in Buffalo and St. Louis. Its not hard to see that Lars really just takes extra flak because of the market he is in, where he was drafted, and not scoring 60 points a season yet is mind blowing to some. But no one really sits down, checks how he is doing in his role compared to others in a similar role around the league. We fail to take into consideration the fact he was never expected to be an offensive dynamo, but a big solid two way center who could eventually play a Bergeron type game. You take away the extra scoring potential situation from a two way forward, put him on the 3rd line, play him roughly 15 min a game, and the result will always fall somewhere between 25- 40 points, 10 - 15 goals. Anything in that realm should never be regarded as a failure, if he played in the top 6 regularly and couldn't get much more than 40 points, then we could have grounds for disappointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Only he's not a third line center. He's not defensively capable enough to be a third line center. Your third line center is the guy you put out on the ice against the opponents' first line. He's the guy you put out on the ice with a lead and a faceoff in your own zone. He's likely your #1 penalty killer.* That's not Eller. That's Plekanec. I don't trust Eller in that role, neither does MT. To be worth his spot, Eller's gotta put up second line center numbers, not third line, because he's certainly not our main shut-down guy. *- unless you have depth like the 1993 Canadiens, who had John Leclair and is 20 goals on an offensive third line, and the best defending forward ever to play this game as captain and fourth line center. Nobody rolled 4 lines so effectively as our last stanley cup champs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link67 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Only he's not a third line center. He's not defensively capable enough to be a third line center. Your third line center is the guy you put out on the ice against the opponents' first line. He's the guy you put out on the ice with a lead and a faceoff in your own zone. He's likely your #1 penalty killer.* That's not Eller. That's Plekanec. I don't trust Eller in that role, neither does MT. To be worth his spot, Eller's gotta put up second line center numbers, not third line, because he's certainly not our main shut-down guy. *- unless you have depth like the 1993 Canadiens, who had John Leclair and is 20 goals on an offensive third line, and the best defending forward ever to play this game as captain and fourth line center. Nobody rolled 4 lines so effectively as our last stanley cup champs. What?? are you really trying to say that Plekanec is playing on our 3rd line? and that Eller was centering our second line with Bourque and whoever for 80% of the season? Eller is without a doubt playing on our 3rd line at the moment. Plekanec has the most ice time of ANY forward on the team every game, He plays PP regularly, that is not a 3rd line center. Just sounds like your grasping for straws at reasons to throw Eller under the bus, even to suggest that you AND Therrien don't trust him, like you had some kind in depth conversation on the matter over a BBQ with the guy one day is pure speculation. I believe Therrien trusts Plekanec MORE, and rightfully so, but that doesn't mean he doesn't trust Eller either. Eller is not as good yet as Plekanec is on defensive missions, but still reliable and able to get the job done, and besides was Plekanec really any better at the role when he was 25? It doesn't matter if anyone thinks he is not worthy of being our 3rd line shut down guy, that is where he plays, He is playing 3rd line minutes, playing 3rd line PP, which is barely any, and playing with 3rd line wingers. To expect 2nd line production in that role, when no one else around the league really does as I pointed out in the previous post, is just unrealistic to a gross degree. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWsnap Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Hey y'all…first time poster. Isn't it AWESOME that the Habs #1 debate right now, is that they have too many NHL quality centres!?!?!?!?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 "Line numbers" are not terribly relevant on this team, which is built to roll three lines (notwithstanding the explosion of the Patches-DD-Vanek line as a suddenly clear-cut #1 line). The fact is, Pleks is our shutdown C, not Eller. Pleks is also our second scoring C after Desharnais, not Eller. Eller is not a "third-line C" in the traditional sense of a Guy Carbonneau; he is more like a third-string C, trusted neither to shut down the opposition nor to fuel offence. People are excited by his excellent playoff. I get it. What I also get is that three strong weeks does not a good player make. If it did, Richard Zednik would have become a superstar. DON, it's not so much about "not being disappointed." It's about refusing to confuse potential with reality. Anyone arguing that Eller has promise is totally right in my book. Anyone arguing that he already IS the player he has the potential to be is simply kidding themselves. The player he was last season was dismayingly mediocre except for those two brief bookends (start and finish). Only a fool would confuse the exception - his brief good phases - with the rule, which has mostly been borderline suckage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGC21 Posted July 5, 2014 Author Share Posted July 5, 2014 I guess my question to everyone is how long do you invest in Eller? He'll probably earn $1.75-$2M this year with another one year deal to prove himself. If he doesn't get better and has another mediocre year then at what point does the organization look for alternatives (Galchenyuk) to fill that centre spot? It's like MB said last week, "sometimes the student needs new teachers." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 It not like Eller sucked, other than scoresheet, which is easy to argue that he wasn't put in a position nor given linemates to excel in that dept. I cherry picked some stats for comparison; Plekanec=44 hits, 1700faceoffs, 48.0%, 37 giveaways, 1:56PP, 2:57PK, 45blocked shots DD= 23hits, 1200faceoffs, 50.3%, 22giveaways, 2:41PP, 0:07PK, 35blocked shots Larry= 130hits, 1000faceoffs, 53.2%, 25giveaways, 1:06PP, 1:24PK, 58 blocked shots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 They cherry-picked stats to make Andrei Kostitsyn look like a stud as well. If Eller didn't "suck" from November to April, he was pretty damned mediocre. We're talking about a player who will make, what, $2 mil? And will be worth no more than that. Yet people are acting like we should ship out Pleks and rely on him. Stop making excuses for poor old Lars and demand that he actually step up and deliver the consistent, impactful game that he is capable of delivering. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 What stands out for me in those cherrypicked numbers is how damn reliable DD was... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 DD had great production (especially with start he had), just don't ask him to defend and all is peachy (also don't put him with Bourque, Moan as linemates or he would be rather useless). Whereas give Pacioretty-Gallagher to Eller, double his PP time and would be hard to argue he wouldn't put up good offensive numbers. And how do you think DD would do offensively with Bourque/Moan/Prust as his wingmen, play on PK & 1/2 the PP time? 50+points? Unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link67 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 DD had great production (especially with start he had), just don't ask him to defend and all is peachy (also don't put him with Bourque, Moan as linemates or he would be rather useless). Whereas give Pacioretty-Gallagher to Eller, double his PP time and would be hard to argue he wouldn't put up good offensive numbers. And how do you think DD would do offensively with Bourque/Moan/Prust as his wingmen, play on PK & 1/2 the PP time? 50+points? Unlikely. EX - ACT - LY The guy plays with 3rd string wingers, 3rd string minutes, and when he doesn't get 50 points we act like he failed miserably. We have a big 25 year old center doing reasonably fine with where he is on our current depth chart and what he gets a chance to do in a game. is it always pretty? no, he has his off games like anyone, but given the circumstances i'm not going to sit here and say its ok to ship him off for a few bauer sticks if he doesn't get off his behind and score 25 goals either. As long as he is taking a back seat to DD and Pleks, so will his stats, end of story, and we should not act surprised when he is unable to produce what they do from his current spot on the team. I don't think for a second Eller is the second coming of Pavel Datsyuk, but I do believe the kid is capable of being a 50+ point producing second line Center if he has quality wingers with him like the Gally's for a full season. At this moment that can't happen because Pleks is in front of him, and will be for the next season at least, so i'm not going to expect 20 goals from the guy when he is once again 3rd in the depth chart, and 3rd in all things that follow, ice time, PP time, winger selection, etc. The road in 2 - 4 years to me should look like Galchenyuk centering the first line and being productive, and Eller centering the second line and Being productive. we would have a 1 - 2 punch with size for the first time in god knows what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Somone else posted this. Under new Management DD 64pts TP 56pts LE 57pts 5 on 5 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 CC if you are going to use rose coloured glasses, make sure you got the same in both lens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29habs3318 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Dustin Tokarski has earned the right to be Carey Price`s backup. There iis no reason why this tandum cannot be the number one goalie duo in the NHL. Tokarski was great and not to blame for defeat to the Rangers. Dominic Moore played great for Montreal back when they went deep beating Washington He was up to his old tricks in the 1-0 win. Why not have situation similar to the Fuher/Moog days in Edmonton. All of mangaments move`s make total sense. The future looks better all the time The players will find their proper places come playoff time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 DD had great production (especially with start he had), just don't ask him to defend and all is peachy (also don't put him with Bourque, Moan as linemates or he would be rather useless). Whereas give Pacioretty-Gallagher to Eller, double his PP time and would be hard to argue he wouldn't put up good offensive numbers. And how do you think DD would do offensively with Bourque/Moan/Prust as his wingmen, play on PK & 1/2 the PP time? 50+points? Unlikely. Yep ^ Eller has the offensive potential, and given the chance, with our top wingers as line mates, he would put up points. I think the nay sayers will be quieted down after this season gets rolling.... Galchenyuk/Eller/Gallagher and leave it for a while... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 DD had great production (especially with start he had), just don't ask him to defend and all is peachy (also don't put him with Bourque, Moan as linemates or he would be rather useless). Whereas give Pacioretty-Gallagher to Eller, double his PP time and would be hard to argue he wouldn't put up good offensive numbers. And how do you think DD would do offensively with Bourque/Moan/Prust as his wingmen, play on PK & 1/2 the PP time? 50+points? Unlikely. Very true. Everyone forgets Eller is the most physical centre we have too. Why the hate boys?! He's young, big, doesn't bitch about being tossed around the lineup, and will probably resign for 2-3 years at a cheap price. If some how we sign another Vanek type winger, it would be nice to see Eller and Parenteau together Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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