Jeff Price (no relation) Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I'm not convinced Bergevin is done dealing, yet. There's just too much filler on the Habs' roster, and not enough meat. The depth is all legitimate depth, but you can't play it all, and it's on the top two lines we seem to be missing things. Let's look at the forwards first. Centre: As much as we scream for a top 10 centre, this is not our area of biggest deficiency on the Canadiens right now. Plekanec, Desharnais, Eller, Flynn, Mitchell. Still one too many to play regularly, and that's assuming Galchenyuk doesn't return to his natural role. Left Wing: This is an area we seem to be lacking depth, but it also is the only area we have a bona fide star forward. Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, de la Rose, Thomas. Honestly, I'm not sure i'm comfortable dressing ONE of dlR and Thomas every night, let alone both at once. Right Wing: Oooh boy. So, which of these guys most easily plays on the left side? Gallagher, Semin, Smith-Pelly, Kassian, Weise. We might end up wanting every one of these guys in the lineup on a nightly basis getting some ice time - but there's FIVE of them! Defense: This is why I suspect there are trades still coming. Subban, Markov, Petry, Beaulieu, Emelin, Gilbert, Pateryn, Tinordi. One nice thing is that this is balanced 4 per side. Thoughts: Ideally, at forward, without respect to position - just dressing our potentially best players, we use: Pacioretty, Gallagher, Plekanec, Galchenyuk, Desharnais, Semin, Smith-Pelly, Kassian, Weise, Eller, Flynn, Mitchell. That's a 12 people. The problem is, it's balanced 5 centres, 5 right wings, and 2 left wings. Who gets moved where? Defense is a bigger issue. 8 D-men for depth isn't bad when you can send one down to the minors, but Pateryn and Tinordi have to clear waivers now. If a deal is not made, I'm half tempted to send Emelin down to the minors, if only to see if someone picks up his contract. Other than that, Gilbert is the obvious choice. If someone picks them up, though (which they will), you need to trade for depth defensemen that have that flexible AHL capability. Of course there will be injuries, at which point we'll be thankful for the depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihilz Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Ideally, imo Outs: DD, Gilbert, DSP, Andrighetto & Fucale. Whatever picks. Pacioretty Trade Semin Galchenyk Plek Gallagher De la Rose Eller Kassian Trade Mitchell Weise Bournival Flynn Markov Subban Beaulieu Petry Emelin Pateryn Tinordi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meller93 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I think out of the right wings, I would only really be happy seeing Weise on the forth line (Although he's a damn good forth liner) DSP has more offensive potential, while Kassian has 2nd line potential. I kind of look at DSP and Kassian as the same player, with Kassian having more upside. I wouldn't want to ever see him on the forth line. Other than MB "never being finished" as he says, I would actually not be surprised at all if this were the roster situation opening day. The thing I don't like the most is having both Emelin and Gilbert on the bottom pair. Moving one of those I see as the most likely plan of action. We clearly have plenty of D depth and Tinordi/Patern have been nearly as physical as Emelin in recent years (and Patern more reliable imo) One more thing is that I really think DD has some trade value at the moment, but if Chucky ever pushes him to the wing it might hurt his value. Trading him now and signing one of the remaining FA left wingers would be ideal. Just don't see it happening. I feel like DD has a glue aspect to the locker room and MB doesn't want to make a more fragile room (with Kassian/Semin, and no Prust) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Semin is a left winger who can play right wing due to being right handed. Carolina coaches always put him on the RW because of his right handed stick but talking to Caps fans, he's naturally a left winger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Great post, Jeff. If you put Semin onto the LW, the forward lineup makes a lot more sense. As for the C situation, I have no problem with Mitchell & Flynn duking it out for a spot all season long. That's not an issue at all; in fact it's the kind of depth elite teams have. Now if Galchenyuk ends up there, that changes matters, because there is little point in having two legitimate NHLers riding the pine. At that point a move would have to be made - ideally, DD for a LW (unless Davey himself can transition to LW and we are comfortable with a "smurf" in that slot). I'm concerned about the Tinordi/Pateryn situation and worried that we will lose one of these guys on waivers in a replay of the Beauchemin/Hainsey debacles. To my mind, this is where a trade - whether it be Tin Man, Pateryn, Emelin, or Gilbert - needs to happen in order for us to recover value for the asset. That's where I'd be looking for a deal to be made before October. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 yeah I think it is pretty obvious that a trade is needed, in order to maintain our assets or at least not lose them to waivers. I am sure MB realizes this and will make the appropriate changes. What those changes are is going to depend on who or what is available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Great post, Jeff. If you put Semin onto the LW, the forward lineup makes a lot more sense. As for the C situation, I have no problem with Mitchell & Flynn duking it out for a spot all season long. That's not an issue at all; in fact it's the kind of depth elite teams have. Now if Galchenyuk ends up there, that changes matters, because there is little point in having two legitimate NHLers riding the pine. At that point a move would have to be made - ideally, DD for a LW (unless Davey himself can transition to LW and we are comfortable with a "smurf" in that slot). I'm concerned about the Tinordi/Pateryn situation and worried that we will lose one of these guys on waivers in a replay of the Beauchemin/Hainsey debacles. To my mind, this is where a trade - whether it be Tin Man, Pateryn, Emelin, or Gilbert - needs to happen in order for us to recover value for the asset. That's where I'd be looking for a deal to be made before October. I would be so pissed his Tinordi gets traded before he puts up a season with more than 50 games. He's been a leader his entire career and with Prust gone we really don't have a player who can drop the gloves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 My Ideal Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gallagher Semin - Galchenyuk - Kassian Desharnais - Eller - Smith-Pelly De La Rose - Mitchell/Flynn - Weise Beaulieu - Subban Markov - Petry Emelin/Tinordi - Pateryn/Gilbert Price Tokarski What I think we will see opening night Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gallagher Galchenyuk - Desharnais - Semin De La Rose - Eller - Kassian Smith-Pelly - Mitchell/Flynn - Weise Markov - Subban Emelin - Petry Beaulieu/Tinordi - Pateryn/Gilbert Price Tokarski What I would do if Bergevin let me be wacky Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Gallagher Semin - Plekanec - Kassian Desharnais - Eller - Holloway De La Rose - Mitchell/Flynn - Weise/Smith-Pelly I would be so pissed his Tinordi gets traded before he puts up a season with more than 50 games. He's been a leader his entire career and with Prust gone we really don't have a player who can drop the gloves. After his last concussion, Tinordi shouldn't be dropping the gloves period. Also Kassian can drop as well as Pateryn, who people forget can fight pretty well and is a big boy at 6'2", 222lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 What has this Holloway acheived to justify being put ahead of both DSP and Dale Weise ?!?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 What has this Holloway acheived to justify being put ahead of both DSP and Dale Weise ?!?!?! Nothing, hence it's me being wacky 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 My Ideal Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gallagher Semin - Galchenyuk - Kassian Desharnais - Eller - Smith-Pelly De La Rose - Mitchell/Flynn - Weise Beaulieu - Subban Markov - Petry Emelin/Tinordi - Pateryn/Gilbert Price Tokarski What I think we will see opening night Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gallagher Galchenyuk - Desharnais - Semin De La Rose - Eller - Kassian Smith-Pelly - Mitchell/Flynn - Weise Markov - Subban Emelin - Petry Beaulieu/Tinordi - Pateryn/Gilbert Price Tokarski What I would do if Bergevin let me be wacky Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Gallagher Semin - Plekanec - Kassian Desharnais - Eller - Holloway De La Rose - Mitchell/Flynn - Weise/Smith-Pelly After his last concussion, Tinordi shouldn't be dropping the gloves period. Also Kassian can drop as well as Pateryn, who people forget can fight pretty well and is a big boy at 6'2", 222lbs. Kassian can drop the gloves, not well though and Pateryn is somewhere along the same lines . I'm just saying, pleeease don't trade Tinordi yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 What has this Holloway acheived to justify being put ahead of both DSP and Dale Weise ?!?!?! He put up very good numbers in the AHL in the past and went overseas when he wasn't given a one-way deal with LA. In that time, he led the Swedish League in scoring and had good numbers in Switzerland last year. He's an unknown but there could be legitimate upside. If he shows that upside in camp and the preseason, he won't make it through waivers which might force them to keep him up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Kassian can drop the gloves, not well though and Pateryn is somewhere along the same lines . I'm just saying, pleeease don't trade Tinordi yet I don't want them to trade Tinordi either...but we should remember that these guys have a much closer and in-depth 'read' on our young players than most of us do. If they move Tinordi out, it'll be because their considered conclusion is that he won't be a core piece in the future. And it seems to me that there have been enough stutter-steps in his development for that to be a conceivable outcome. That said, it seems a no brainer to ship out Gilbert before either of our young guys. The countervailing consideration, of course, is return. Say you truly doubt that Tinordi will ever be more than a #5 d-man, but some team is willing to give you a higher-ceiling prospect or some excellent picks back, while Gilbert won't command more than a 4th-rounder. Then you probably do trade Tinordi. This is a classic case where we'll have to trust management's skills at talent-evaluation and cross our fingers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Kassian can drop the gloves, not well though and Pateryn is somewhere along the same lines . I'm just saying, pleeease don't trade Tinordi yet Tinordi ain't much of a fighter either, dunno what your obsession is. One more fight like that and he'll be fishing with Parros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Tinordi ain't much of a fighter either, dunno what your obsession is. One more fight like that and he'll be fishing with Parros. God, that is absolutely horrendous. Much worse than the Parros fight because, while Parros got hurt in a freak thing, Tinordi simply had the living sh*t kicked out of him. If Tinordi were 6'2 instead of 6'6, it surely has to be an open question whether he'd be anywhere near as big a deal as he is among the fan base. But size is no guarantee of excellence. I want him to succeed, but - again - if he gets dealt away I'll defer to management's considered judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 I realize Weise has the lowest ceiling of our right wings, but there is no way I'd be happy if he sat on the fourth line while Eller and/or de la Rose were on the third. He is far better than Eller, and at least for now better than dlR is. He's also reliable. As much as we hope Kassian or Semin is a diamond in the rough, odds are at least one of them is a bust (which is fine... If either of them perform we have improved.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 God, that is absolutely horrendous. Much worse than the Parros fight because, while Parros got hurt in a freak thing, Tinordi simply had the living sh*t kicked out of him. If Tinordi were 6'2 instead of 6'6, it surely has to be an open question whether he'd be anywhere near as big a deal as he is among the fan base. But size is no guarantee of excellence. I want him to succeed, but - again - if he gets dealt away I'll defer to management's considered judgement. I actually liked him at first more for his bloodline. Mark Tinordi was a great defenceman. He seemed like the upgrade of his pops. I remember when Habs fans were enamoured with one Ryan O'Byrne, a big oaf who only ever looked good with Andrei Markov (sound familiar?) that people loved for his size. The guy got stuck in his own zone all the time and could rarely make that first pass out. He could hardly skate but he threw a few good hits and was tough to fight so every excuse under the sun was made for the guy. I honestly think Tinordi has NHL skill. He skates well enough, his positioning is strong and I have hoped for him to develop into an Emelin replacement. The fact we're stacked at LD after Emelin moved back there has been a detriment to him but LD vs. RD, Pateryn has still played better. Maybe that's an age thing. Maybe it's the injuries. Either way, he can't be trying to earn his keep through big checks and fighting and nothing else. He needs to be a better defenceman than Emelin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Tinordi ain't much of a fighter either, dunno what your obsession is. One more fight like that and he'll be fishing with Parros. Because he got caught with a punch he's not much of a fighter? He didn't even suffer a sever concussion(a concussion is a concussion, I know).He got dropped playing for the Knights too, came back and played the exact same way he did prior to taking the punch. With all that being said, fighting is not the sole reason I want him on the habs roster. He's a high pedigree player, who lays the body adds more size to the back end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I actually liked him at first more for his bloodline. Mark Tinordi was a great defenceman. He seemed like the upgrade of his pops. I remember when Habs fans were enamoured with one Ryan O'Byrne, a big oaf who only ever looked good with Andrei Markov (sound familiar?) that people loved for his size. The guy got stuck in his own zone all the time and could rarely make that first pass out. He could hardly skate but he threw a few good hits and was tough to fight so every excuse under the sun was made for the guy. I honestly think Tinordi has NHL skill. He skates well enough, his positioning is strong and I have hoped for him to develop into an Emelin replacement. The fact we're stacked at LD after Emelin moved back there has been a detriment to him but LD vs. RD, Pateryn has still played better. Maybe that's an age thing. Maybe it's the injuries. Either way, he can't be trying to earn his keep through big checks and fighting and nothing else. He needs to be a better defenceman than Emelin. Don't forget he was a purse snatcher as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Should be good competition for d-spots in Sept. Mr.Therrien will mix em up, as all coaches seem to do, so should see how many do in different roles. I think Weise and Pelly do better if given more icetime and will be interesting to see if de la Rose actually starts the season in St. Johns. Tinordi would be a 3rd pairing/7th d-man at best this year, so kinda irrelevant to this season. Almost think Lernout will be what we all hoped Tinordi would be, so if traded not end of world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Maybe someone should google some of the fights that Tinordi absolutely creamed the other guy, and layed out the body to a large and efficient degree. I don't think it's time to trade him because of his intangibles of good positioning, good top end speed, his leadership capabilities and his willingness to be that "big body guy". Idiocy to trade him now after all this development, or the return would have to be awfully high in my opinion. I don't think Bergevin has an immediate plan to give up on him yet, in fact I see the opposite, I see that he and Therrien have made Tinordi pay his dues in the A, and have brought his development along as they said they had planned. Emelin or Gilbert, and preferably Gilbert to create the spot on the roster, Emelin to relieve salary if we are to make a trade. Honestly in my opinion, Pateryn and Tinordi are better than and cheaper than Gilbert and Emelin, because our top 4 looks to be able to handle most of the minutes anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I've been of the opinion for a while we need to create a package of: Eller or Desharnais Emelin or Gilbert Prospect or Pick And see what we can get. I'd rather not move Tinordi and make space for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I've been of the opinion for a while we need to create a package of: Eller or Desharnais Emelin or Gilbert Prospect or Pick And see what we can get. I'd rather not move Tinordi and make space for him. Oh yes. Hey Trizz, here we go again. Desharnais, Emelin and a 2nd pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 Oh yes. Hey Trizz, here we go again. Desharnais, Emelin and a 2nd pick. I'd rather say Eller, Emelin, and a 2nd pick. (I like Emelin much more than Gilbert, but Gilbert's job will be to sit in the press-box until there's an injury, and 4.1 million for that is too much.) Desharnais is a proven, reliable, 50 point per year second-line center, and he's at least as good defensively as Eller (better, in my opinion.) We add a lot more to the team by replacing Eller with more offense than we do by replacing Desharnais with more offense, and lose much less. On the other hand, Eller's contract is an obstacle...throwing Eller into the deal lowers the odds someone else is going to make it. We may NEED to trade Desharnais to make the package more appealling to another team. The idea is to get one very good player for two just good players and a pick. Desharnais and Emelin qualify as "just good." Eller only qualifies as "not that good." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 You lost me at DD being at least as responsible (let alone more) than Eller. I'd rather say Eller, Emelin, and a 2nd pick. (I like Emelin much more than Gilbert, but Gilbert's job will be to sit in the press-box until there's an injury, and 4.1 million for that is too much.) Desharnais is a proven, reliable, 50 point per year second-line center, and he's at least as good defensively as Eller (better, in my opinion.) We add a lot more to the team by replacing Eller with more offense than we do by replacing Desharnais with more offense, and lose much less. On the other hand, Eller's contract is an obstacle...throwing Eller into the deal lowers the odds someone else is going to make it. We may NEED to trade Desharnais to make the package more appealling to another team. The idea is to get one very good player for two just good players and a pick. Desharnais and Emelin qualify as "just good." Eller only qualifies as "not that good." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.