dlbalr Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I stumbled upon this earlier today, apparently the Habs have given Timmins a contract extension according to Lance Hornby of the Toronto Sun. (It's a one-sentence blurb towards the end of the article which is linked in my write-up below.) http://www.habsworld.net/2016/07/report-habs-sign-trevor-timmins-to-a-contract-extension/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Seems like some of the shine has come off Timmons in recent years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Did he deserve an extension? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ethan Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Timmins did a great job in the 2013 draft and the team is starting to reap some of the benefits. Also thought he did a great job this past draft considering that two premium picks were dealt for near term help. Habs keep TT as a scout by trading away enough of his picks that his reputation doesn't rise high enough to get G.M. offers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I'm surprised Timmins want to continue to be associated with this buffoonish management team. But he's one of the few I still have some faith in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meller93 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I'm surprised Timmins want to continue to be associated with this buffoonish management team. But he's one of the few I still have some faith in. Yes, Timmins has done well as far as I'm concerned. Consistently producing NHLers with a selection position that isn't particular enviable 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I'm surprised Timmins want to continue to be associated with this buffoonish management team. But he's one of the few I still have some faith in. I've heard he has GM aspirations. Might be biding his time for when the Foxhole regime collapses so Molson has a quick option to be GM. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Timmons is a very smart guy imho. Let's hope he hangs around for a while cause the current coach/mgt team are crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Timmons is a very smart guy imho. Let's hope he hangs around for a while cause the current coach/mgt team are crap. He rode out Gauthier, so he must not be too particular about the management team he's working with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 He rode out Gauthier, so he must not be too particular about the management team he's working with. Now when you say rode him, you mean......... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Now when you say rode him, you mean......... Oy vey. Let me rephrase that to "rode out the Gauthier era..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Did he deserve an extension? http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/nhl-entry-draft-picks/2016/7/23/12234890/montreal-canadiens-nhl-entry-draft-picks-drafting-trevor-timmins-bergevin-amateur-scouting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/nhl-entry-draft-picks/2016/7/23/12234890/montreal-canadiens-nhl-entry-draft-picks-drafting-trevor-timmins-bergevin-amateur-scouting What's remarkable is how wretchedly the Habs have done DESPITE Timmins's apparent excellence. As the article below argues, when you look at the Habs' track record since 1993, it is basically comparable to the Leafs': another organization that never comes close to winning, but is perpetually selling hope to its deluded and relentlessly loyal cash-cow of a fan-base. http://www.hockeyinsideout.com/news/what-the-puck-mediocre-management-is-par-for-the-course-with-canadiens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 What's remarkable is how wretchedly the Habs have done DESPITE Timmins's apparent excellence. As the article below argues, when you look at the Habs' track record since 1993, it is basically comparable to the Leafs': another organization that never comes close to winning, but is perpetually selling hope to its deluded and relentlessly loyal cash-cow of a fan-base. http://www.hockeyinsideout.com/news/what-the-puck-mediocre-management-is-par-for-the-course-with-canadiens Timmins didn't work with Habs in 93. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 What's remarkable is how wretchedly the Habs have done DESPITE Timmins's apparent excellence. As the article below argues, when you look at the Habs' track record since 1993, it is basically comparable to the Leafs': another organization that never comes close to winning, but is perpetually selling hope to its deluded and relentlessly loyal cash-cow of a fan-base. http://www.hockeyinsideout.com/news/what-the-puck-mediocre-management-is-par-for-the-course-with-canadiens Habs first round drafting between 1988 and 1999 yielded only Saku Koivu. It was pretty hard for Timmins not to do worse than that between 2003 and 2016 and while he has some stinkers on the resume he also has Price, Pacioretty, McDonaugh, and Galchenyuk. Where Trev excels is later rounds and finding NHL players on the picks most teams go in feeling it's a crapshoot. Our second round drafting has been strong which is why I was pretty mad we gave up two second rounders for Shaw. Boston built a Cup team on second round picks. We too often give them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Habs first round drafting between 1988 and 1999 yielded only Saku Koivu. It was pretty hard for Timmins not to do worse than that between 2003 and 2016 and while he has some stinkers on the resume he also has Price, Pacioretty, McDonaugh, and Galchenyuk. Where Trev excels is later rounds and finding NHL players on the picks most teams go in feeling it's a crapshoot. Our second round drafting has been strong which is why I was pretty mad we gave up two second rounders for Shaw. Boston built a Cup team on second round picks. We too often give them up. Agree Habs GM in past gave away and didn't collect 2nd picks, at least this year they simply delayed em, meanwhile turning Eller into Shaw. So not gutting pick pool and now have 5 2nd picks in next two years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Timmins didn't work with Habs in 93. He started in what, 2003? We've been to the semi-final a grand total of once in the span since. That is mediocrity personified. I'm not blaming Timmins. Just pointing out the dissonance between his apparent excellence and the on-ice results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 He started in what, 2003? We've been to the semi-final a grand total of once in the span since. That is mediocrity personified. I'm not blaming Timmins. Just pointing out the dissonance between his apparent excellence and the on-ice results. He also spent ten years in Ottawa with no Cups. The Timmins hype is a lot of hot air for an above average draft maestro without any major accomplishments. He picked a bunch of guys in the fifth round and a lot of them got traded. That's the legacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 He also spent ten years in Ottawa with no Cups. The Timmins hype is a lot of hot air for an above average draft maestro without any major accomplishments. He picked a bunch of guys in the fifth round and a lot of them got traded. That's the legacy. Geez, he did draft Subban in the second round. That's the equivalent of scoring a #1 overall pick. Oh wait, I forgot, Subban is a high-risk airhead with lots of holes in his game and a terrible teammate. Bad pick. Thank God we managed to spin that dross into gold of a declining behemoth with worse stats on a bloated 10-year contract He also scored Gallagher in round 5, that's not too shabby either. I don't think he's the problem. Hell, if Gainey had not traded McDonagh the team might have already made the finals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 He started in what, 2003? We've been to the semi-final a grand total of once in the span since. That is mediocrity personified. I'm not blaming Timmins. Just pointing out the dissonance between his apparent excellence and the on-ice results. Just posting stats which for 10 years he had no part in that's all? You do realize that Timmins dosent decide who plays, who is demoted, who is traded or which picks are traded. You seem to be confused and maybe do not understand the draft, drafting, nor what Timmins job actually is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Just posting stats which for 10 years he had no part in that's all? You do realize that Timmins dosent decide who plays, who is demoted, who is traded or which picks are traded. You seem to be confused and maybe do not understand the draft, drafting, nor what Timmins job actually is. No, you are confused about my post, which observed the "dissonance between his apparent excellence and the on-ice results." I also said that I wasn't blaming Timmins. So, yes, I was trying to underscore the oddity of a situation where the Habs apparently have an excellent grasp of drafting, and yet have done nothing but fail since Timmins came aboard (and, obviously, before that). It points, presumably, to bad management. Habs GMs are like Donald Trump, who supposedly would be wealthier today if he had done NOTHING with his inheritance rather than actually try to invest with it; i.e., Habs GMs may well have been better off eschewing trades altogether. Between McDonagh and Subban, they've dealt away what would have been quite possibly the best duo in all of hockey, for instance. Just as you'd expect of the Toronto Maple Leafs, which is what the Habs have basically become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 No, you are confused about my post, which observed the "dissonance between his apparent excellence and the on-ice results." I also said that I wasn't blaming Timmins. So, yes, I was trying to underscore the oddity of a situation where the Habs apparently have an excellent grasp of drafting, and yet have done nothing but fail since Timmins came aboard (and, obviously, before that). It points, presumably, to bad management. Habs GMs are like Donald Trump, who supposedly would be wealthier today if he had done NOTHING with his inheritance rather than actually try to invest with it; i.e., Habs GMs may well have been better off eschewing trades altogether. Between McDonagh and Subban, they've dealt away what would have been quite possibly the best duo in all of hockey, for instance. Just as you'd expect of the Toronto Maple Leafs. You can look at every draft and see how Timmins did compared to other scouts and teams. 2003-2012 could be considered his first decade with most of the players developed or at least being NHL ready. 2003: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2003e.html 2004: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2004e.html 2005: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2005e.html 2006: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2006e.html 2007: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2007e.html 2008: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2008e.html 2009: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2009e.html 2010: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2010e.html 2011: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2011e.html 2012: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2012e.html Habs picks: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00006929.html The big question is, while Timmins is great at finding players who make it to the NHL, is he maximizing the value of the draft picks he selects? We're also pretty close to saying he went 0 for 13 combining the 2008 and 2009 drafts, and that between 2008-2012 we only have Alex Galchenyuk, Nathan Beaulieu, and Brendan Gallagher to show for those five drafts. Three players out of 32 picks over five years. In comparison, we got Andrei Kostitsyn, Jaroslav Halak, Maxim Lapierre, Ryan O'Byrne, Alex Emelin, Mikhail Grabovski, Mark Streit, Carey Price, Guillaume Latendresse, Matt D'Agostini, Sergei Kostitsyn, Ryan White, Ryan McDonaugh, Max Pacioretty, P.K. Subban, and Yannick Weber between 2003-2007. When you look at the years, was Timmins picking the right guys? Was it our team development why guys are no longer developing the way they used to? We often hear that the Habs had a good draft based on multiple scouting sources, but we're not really seeing the results. I recall 2012 being a great draft for us but we're likely to see only Galchenyuk work out (jury is out of course on Hudon, who could make an impact this year), a third overall pick. That's not good. I think going forward, the 2013 draft will be what decides if Montreal keeps Timmins as head of scouting beyond this new contract. McCarron, de la Rose, Fucale, Lehkonen, Andrighetto, and Reway are all players people said at that draft that Montreal got NHLers. The only real mess up was taking Crisp when the obvious choice was Anthony Duclair. If in three years none of those guys look like top six NHLers or that Fucale doesn't look like at least a platoon goalie, then there's a real problem. It's either Timmins or the team development, and it's easier for Molson to just get rid of Timmins than it is to completely rehaul the way the team develops players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 I'm going to say it's development that is the problem. It's hard to pinpoint exactly where it goes wrong. I always felt that the Habs never had a lot of patience when it comes to their prospects and tend to rush them into roles they are not ready for (sink or swim situations). I also wonder if they put a little too much pressure on these players to be more than what they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 I'm going to say it's development that is the problem. It's hard to pinpoint exactly where it goes wrong. I always felt that the Habs never had a lot of patience when it comes to their prospects and tend to rush them into roles they are not ready for (sink or swim situations). I also wonder if they put a little too much pressure on these players to be more than what they are. Jacob de la Rose is the best example of this. Brought up early, played well, Therrien was convinced he could be a third line centre when it was never his natural role, gets hurt, has a weak stint in the AHL and doesn't look that good anymore in the NHL. This guy is only 21 and already getting written off. Is the problem him or the guys who were supposed to be developing him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 But teams can't win on this stuff. They eased in Pacioretty and Galchenyuk amidst endless opprobrium from fans. Now they're accused of "rushing" guys like DeLaRose. But one thing I do agree on is that players should not be asked to be what they're not, as a condition of their development. If a guy is an offensive player, don't try to turn him into a plumber. I think it was easier to blame "player development" in the Gainey era. The team had guys like Ribeiro, Grabovski, and the Kostitsyns all with serious behavioural issues suggestive of a lack of good internal mentoring and structure. They threw Carey Price to the wolves and it was a very near thing that he came out of it unscathed. It seemed pretty clear to me that development was hugely screwed up - and Gainey must have agreed because he fired everyone involved in Hamilton after 2009. I like Machine's post above. The jury is still out on Timmins's work during the Bergevin era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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