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Will it come down to Markov or Wisniewski?


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It would be nice to sign both. I just don't know if it's that smart. We'd be set on RD for several years as a result, and Gorges could switch to LD.

I would guess our D pairs would line up like this:

Markov - Wisniewski

Gorges - Subban

Spacek - Weber

Yemelin/Picard

Or else:

Markov - Gorges

Spacek - Subban

Yemelin - Wisniewski

Weber

That'd be pretty good, but it all depends on the money, obviously. In 2012, Price will be probably getting $4m-$5m a year, Spacek would be gone, Subban would be pulling in close to $3m and Eller would be getting more money. Not to mention Kostitsyn.

I don't think Wiz is a $5m d-man, that's my main concern.

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I like what Wiz has brought to this team, but I just don't think there will be enough money to sign him. They will miss his cannon, but for 4 to 5 million just for a shot, that seems extreme. I want to see Andre Markov signed. Gorges also must be signed. After that, I tend to lean toward what a few bloggers have been saying (something I have been saying for two years now). If the identity of your team is speed, transition, precision, and skill, why would you want all of these incredibly slow defensemen on your team. If Gill and Hammer can be had for the same price, or within a half a million of each other, I would like to see Hammer signed. We would miss Gill on the PK, and I may eat these words if he comes up huge in the playoffs again, but the smart money has to go with Hammer between these two. Mara could be an interesting 7th defenseman if Yemilin decides to stay in the KHL.

Markov Gorges

Hammer Subban

Spacek Weber

Yemelin

Having said that, I would love to see Wiz signed, he is very patient with the puck and makes good first passes. If the D could stay healthy and he were playing in a lesser role, I think he would look a lot better. If he could be resigned, you have to think this is Hammer's last year here.

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Not to go too far off topic, but I think you guys are short-changing Gill. Personally I think hes a great shut down defenseman and the Canadiens can probably retain him for cheap. Hamrlik is good an all, but if Wisniewski re-signs with Montreal, what exactly is the point of paying more for Hamrlik for a roll Gill can fill? With Wisniewski, Markov, Spacek and Subban there is no need for Hamrlik on the power play. Also with Markov, Subban and Gorges it`s not feasible to pay 3m+ for Hamrlik to kill penalties when you can get Gill to do a better job at it for 2m or under.

The Chicoutimi Cucumber said it, the team needs that shot Wisniewski possesses. If Montreal doesn`t re-sign Hamrlik they have 5.5m to play with for Wisniewski, who is currently getting 3.25m, so re-signing him for 3.5m or 4m isn`t really a stretch. Then they can take the 1.5m-2m for Gorges contract.

The beginning of the season Montreal had 19.3m tied up for their defense. If we can get Wisniewski for 4m, Markov for 5.5m, Georges for 3m and Gill for 2m, the cost of our defense will be nearly what it was at the beginning of the season. The only thing I have got figured in is Weber and Picard which are difficult calls if they won`t accept 2-way contracts. This would leave us with;

Markov Gorges

Subban Wisniewski

Spacek Gill

You can play with the lines as you want, but that would be one of the best defense cores in the league, both offensively and defensively. They could also put Weber on the 4th line so he is available for the power play.

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I think you guys are short-changing Gill. Personally I think hes a great shut down defenseman and the Canadiens can probably retain him for cheap.

Agreed. I hope they keep Gill for his leadership, PK prowess and affordability.

But I disagree with your numbers on the others:

The Wiz, who will finish the season in the top 10 for dmen points, is going to cost about $4.5M per for 3-5 years. He will want to cash in on his career season and lock a deal for his prime years, but I doubt the Habs will jump. And Gorges may cost more than $3M - say $3.25M per for 3-5 years.

Great to revisit this discussion, and be reminded why this forum is the best place on the internet to have intelligent conversations about the Montreal Canadiens.

So, revising my post on this thread from back in Jan, I'd guess:

Dman ---- 2010-11 --- 2011-12

Markov --- 5,750,000 - 5.75M - 1 year

Ham ------ 5,500,000 - walks

Gill -------- 2,250,000 - 2M - 1 year

Wiz -------- 3,250,000 - 4.5M - 4 years

Gorges -- 1,100,000 - 3.25M - 4 years

Weber --- 875,000 --- 1M - 2 years (one way contract)

Picard --- 600,000 --- walks

Subban - 875,000 --- 875,000

Spacek - 3,83M ------ 3,83

Totals: $22,558,333 $21.2M

This is probably more than the team can afford to spend, given the eventual need for raises for PK, Weber, Price, Eller, Max Pac, and DD. I am guessing that the Wiz walks, and that the Habs bank on PK and Weber's point shot for the future of the PP. They may re-sign Mara for toughness and affordability to round out the D. May also let Gill walk and spend a little more finding a tough stay-at-home replacement to play with Subban. Who might that be?

Edited by patience is a virtue
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I agree that if Wiz is signed, Hammer will not be needed. I just don;t see how it can happen. I hope it does though,

Hmmmm. Fell asleep thinking about this dilemma and woke up thinking about it too. The CC is right - the Habs should push the boundaries to find a way to keep the Wiz - who else could come close to replacing Markov's offensive amazingness if his knee is really botched (note that the risk of this is greater because Markov is recovering from these surgeries at an older age)? Sometimes the solution is obvious: Sign Markov for one and the Wiz long-term. Trade the Wiz if Markov returns to greatness. If his knee is botched, let Markov go at the end of 2012 and keep the Wiz.

If they cut Gill loose and re-sign Mara for $800,000 (much needed, affordable toughness), limit Weber's raise to .875 per for one or two years one-way, the D next season looks like this:

Markov-Wiz, 5.75+4.5 =10.25

Gorges-Subban, 3.25+.875 =5

Spacek-Weber, 3.83+.875=4.7

Mara = .800

Total 2011-12 on D = $20.755M = about 1 or 2M higher than we'd like it, but, that's a pretty crazy top 4 D.

With $28.787M locked up on Cam, Gio, Gom, Pleks, Price, Eller and Moen (and Laraque), that leaves about $11.5M assuming the salary cap bumps upward from $59.4M to about $61M for 2011-12.

All one way contracts:

AK, 3.75M for 3

Poo, 2M for 2

Max Pac, 1.75M for 2

Desharnais 1M for 2

Darche, .750M for 1

Pyatt, 0.5M for 1

White 0.5M for 1

= $10.25M

= $1.75 for a backup goalie and wiggle room

Tight, but worth it for the having the assurance of the Wiz being able to stay if Markov is unable to return to top form. Of course, the risk is that the Wiz's numbers decline and his contract becomes unmovable, and the team is totally screwed. But his performance has been consistently on the upswing during his NHL career, despite a lot of bumping around. We can't afford the luxury of him, Subban and a healthy Markov long-term, but it could work next season, and it may help make the team a contender next year.

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All this number crunching can be solved one way, and I hope for our sake Gauthier can pull it off. Get Gomez traded. It's almost to the point with him a buyout is looking good. Sure you lose around 3m a year but you also gain around 3m a year, year depending. Would be ideal if Eller stepped up to 2nd center form, but he may be a couple of years away from that. Pouliot can go at the end of the season in my opinion, he's not worth 2m a year. He plays like he is Gionta's size when he should be playing more like Darche. I know it's too much to hope for but I'd love to see Gomez traded and a top 6 big winger be brought in. Gionta and Cammalleri would thrive with a big physical winger each and Eller would grow fast centering either of them. Also the money would be there for Wisniewski.

P.S. I don't see Wisniewski getting 5m a season from anyone, he doesn't have enough defensive upside for a top pair defenseman. I'm not saying he's bad in his zone by any means, I'm just saying he's not the guy you want out there against the other team's top line. I could be wrong, but that is how I see it.

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All this number crunching can be solved one way, and I hope for our sake Gauthier can pull it off. Get Gomez traded. It's almost to the point with him a buyout is looking good. Sure you lose around 3m a year but you also gain around 3m a year, year depending. Would be ideal if Eller stepped up to 2nd center form, but he may be a couple of years away from that. Pouliot can go at the end of the season in my opinion, he's not worth 2m a year. He plays like he is Gionta's size when he should be playing more like Darche. I know it's too much to hope for but I'd love to see Gomez traded and a top 6 big winger be brought in. Gionta and Cammalleri would thrive with a big physical winger each and Eller would grow fast centering either of them. Also the money would be there for Wisniewski.

P.S. I don't see Wisniewski getting 5m a season from anyone, he doesn't have enough defensive upside for a top pair defenseman. I'm not saying he's bad in his zone by any means, I'm just saying he's not the guy you want out there against the other team's top line. I could be wrong, but that is how I see it.

I don't think a buyout of Gomer is a good idea, because unless you're ready to throw Eller or Desharnais in there, the $3 mil you save - plus some extra - will likely have to be invested in another 2nd-line C; while this would represent an upgrade at the position (almost anything would) it wouldn't represent any cap savings. Heck, it might end up costing more.

The options with Gomez seem to me pretty clear-cut. Trade him, demote him and eat the salary, or keep him around. The third option is the worst option, and this gets to what I've been saying in this thread. It's time for the Habs to become what the elite teams generally are: absolutely ruthless bastards when it comes to cap management. Both Gomez and Spacek ought to be in the managerial crosshairs for 2011-12 as wastes of cap space that are preventing us from potentially becoming contenders.

Move heaven and earth to dump those salaries. Don't resign Hammer (Wiz brings more, surely). OK. That saves what, $15.5 mil? Say another $4-5 mil added to an NHL-quality 2nd line C. $11 mil to play with. Not too shabby.

Now I don't know how feasible that specific scenario is. But I am sick and tired of the Habs being a 'good team' with only a remote chance of actually winning the Cup, which has been the norm for the last 3 years, to say nothing of the dismal decade before that. Assuming that Patches recovers, we have three elite youngsters on the cheap and some good core guys who are getting no younger. It's time to take a step up. Trading draft picks is out of the question. Standing still is out of the question. Therefore coldly ruthless cap management is the only way to do it.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber
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The options with Gomez seem to me pretty clear-cut. Trade him, demote him and eat the salary, or keep him around. The third option is the worst option, and this gets to what I've been saying in this thread. It's time for the Habs to become what the elite teams generally are: absolutely ruthless bastards when it comes to cap management. Both Gomez and Spacek ought to be in the managerial crosshairs for 2011-12 as wastes of cap space that are preventing us from potentially becoming contenders.

Assuming that Patches recovers, we have three elite youngsters on the cheap and some good core guys who are getting no younger. It's time to take a step up. Trading draft picks is out of the question. Standing still is out of the question. Therefore coldly ruthless cap management is the only way to do it.

Provocative stuff CC. Realistically there are no options with Spacek, b/c he is 35+ and unmoveable. Furthermore, he'll make a solid 3rd pair defenseman, if a little pricey. "waste of cap space" is an exaggeration in his case.

Nor is Gomez "a waste", but he is a serious cap issue. The only real 2012 option if you wanna get rid of him is to bury his contract in the AHL. He might be tradeable in 2012-2013 when his salary dips to $5.5M, but not at the rate he has produced this season. Burying him in the A would be ruthless for sure, with ramifications for the entire organization, but it would open up exciting UFA options. If PG and the Molsons are willing to do it, this summer is the time. I'd offer UFA Brooks Laich a raise ($3 to 4M per for 3) and leave the #2 and #3 centre jobs up for grabs between him, Eller and DD. Laich can also play LW if Eller and DD work out and Leblanc ends up in the show faster than expected. Use the rest of the Gomez cap space to sign the Wiz and Markov, and to bring in a fast, gritty UFA winger who can help actualize The System: Pascal Dupuis or Ville Leino.

Another UFA scenario, if you have more faith in Eller's ability to jump up to 2nd line C duty next year, is to sign reliable veteran Eric Belanger on as your 3rd or 4th line centre for $1.25M and spend the big bucks on another top line UFA winger: Simone Gange. Is his career in decline? It'd be a risky move for sure.

Last thing: if Scotty Gomez rises to the occasion again this post-season (as he has done the past couple of games) then it becomes very hard to justify the ruthlessness required to bury him in the AHL.

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Gomez ain't going anywhere. We won't be signing a UFA this summer to a long term deal unless he's already a core player on the team (Markov, etc.). I don't think we'll have too crazy of a UFA season... there's just one year left on the current CBA and I think teams will wait for the new one before going crazy again.

The cap is likely to top $62m next year, if not more than $63m. We should be fine. We aren't keeping all of Wiz, Hamrlik, and Gill. We'll lose at least one of them just for practical purposes.

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Gomez ain't going anywhere. We won't be signing a UFA this summer to a long term deal unless he's already a core player on the team (Markov, etc.). I don't think we'll have too crazy of a UFA season... there's just one year left on the current CBA and I think teams will wait for the new one before going crazy again.

The cap is likely to top $62m next year, if not more than $63m. We should be fine. We aren't keeping all of Wiz, Hamrlik, and Gill. We'll lose at least one of them just for practical purposes.

Ah, the calm voice of reason. Good point about the CBA.

Curious about your cap projection. How does one estimate it?

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Ah, the calm voice of reason. Good point about the CBA.

Curious about your cap projection. How does one estimate it?

I've heard $63m bandied about as a projection. Apparently revenues are doing quite well... and the Canadian Dollar at $1.03+ pushes it higher. We won't know for certain for a couple of months, but I think it's fairly accurate. We've had bumps of $4m before, just not for a couple of years.

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The numbers on Gomez have been crunched on here before. I think the most likely scenario for him would be that he stays on the team for 2011/2012. At the end of 2012, if he is still not producing, and his playoff performances are poor, he could then be traded to a team that needs to make the cap floor. His cap hit of 7.35 million for two years would total 14.71 mill. His actual pay would be 10 million for a two year difference of 4.71 million. He may be tradeable at that point.

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Gomez ain't going anywhere. We won't be signing a UFA this summer to a long term deal unless he's already a core player on the team (Markov, etc.). I don't think we'll have too crazy of a UFA season... there's just one year left on the current CBA and I think teams will wait for the new one before going crazy again.

The cap is likely to top $62m next year, if not more than $63m. We should be fine. We aren't keeping all of Wiz, Hamrlik, and Gill. We'll lose at least one of them just for practical purposes.

With the new Versus deal it looks like it should be at least $63M next year. Makes me revisit all this and wonder if that provides the wiggle room we need to sign both Markov and the Wiz. Seems crazy to me to let either of them walk until absolutely necessary (i.e. when the cheap Price, Subban and Max Pac window closes)

Oh, and I bet on Gill over Hammer. He is Subban's coach, and perhaps the real captain in the dressing room, by the sounds of things. And he'll be cheaper. Hamrlik is out there proving he is still worth at least $3M.

Edited by patience is a virtue
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With the new Versus deal it looks like it should be at least $63M next year. Makes me revisit all this and wonder if that provides the wiggle room we need to sign both Markov and the Wiz. Seems crazy to me to let either of them walk until absolutely necessary (i.e. when the cheap Price, Subban and Max Pac window closes)

Oh, and I bet on Gill over Hammer. He is Subban's coach, and perhaps the real captain in the dressing room, by the sounds of things. And he'll be cheaper. Hamrlik is out there proving he is still worth at least $3M.

I take Markov over Wisniewski. But as you kind of mentioned, I think Hammer vs Gill is the real decision. I really like both players but I think I would take Gill.

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I take Markov over Wisniewski. But as you kind of mentioned, I think Hammer vs Gill is the real decision. I really like both players but I think I would take Gill.

I'd go with Hammer in a heart beat.

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If it was me, i would go with Wis and Markov.

Markov Gorges

Wis Spacek

Subban Stay at home D man

Weber

Markov won't get 5 mill, that would be insane to give soemone who has basically missed 2 years a huge contract.

I think Pouliot has played himself off the team and won't be resigned.

They have soem money to spend on defenseman

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I think Pouliot has played himself off the team and won't be resigned.

That would be dumb. People complain about asset management and I still have to hear about Ribeiro and S. Kostitsyn.

Pouliot is an RFA and after this season will not be expensive to re-sign. There will ALWAYS be a GM who thinks he can salvage a top 5 pick so he holds value.

Re-sign the guy and package him or deal him for picks or younger prospects. They got Bournival for O'Byrne (funny how nobody mentions how great he is anymore) and Pacioretty/Gorges for a stiff like Rivet.

Frustration or not, you don't let a guy like that walk.

Edited by Wamsley01
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Pouliot would be valuable if he played his own size. This guy kills me, 6'3 199lbs and he plays like he's Gionta's size. In the off-season, he should have bulked up, changed his play mentality, and been a major factor this season. You put 10lbs-15lbs on his frame, get him in the mentality of finishing his checks and go to the net, you have what Montreal needs. Hell if he would just go to the net it would help. His game is all about the perimeter and shooting goals, when it should be in the dirty areas with dirty goals. He can be a 25 goals scorer easy, but seems to be too scared to get to the areas he needs to be in to get those goals.

When it comes to a choice between Gill and Hamrlik, Gill wins hands down. Sure Hamrlik has a more rounded game, but what Gill brings to the table is far more valuable. He's an excellent balance for Subban, and his leadership can round Subban to be an elite defenseman. Look what he has already done for Subban, give him another year and Subban will be a no. 1 defenseman on any team. Gorges and Subban as the top defensive pair in a couple of years will be a great duo. All made possible because Gill solidified Gorges' and Subban's defensive ability. That is more valuable than a decent 2nd pair defenseman for a couple of years, because Hamrlik only has 3-4 years left anyway.

I hope Montreal does sign Wiz and Markov for at least next season, if they don't sign at least one fo them then they really need to put that money towards a big strong scoring forward, which they wouldn't need if Pouliot would play to his size.

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Pouliot would be valuable if he played his own size. This guy kills me, 6'3 199lbs and he plays like he's Gionta's size. In the off-season, he should have bulked up, changed his play mentality, and been a major factor this season. You put 10lbs-15lbs on his frame, get him in the mentality of finishing his checks and go to the net, you have what Montreal needs. Hell if he would just go to the net it would help. His game is all about the perimeter and shooting goals, when it should be in the dirty areas with dirty goals. He can be a 25 goals scorer easy, but seems to be too scared to get to the areas he needs to be in to get those goals.

When it comes to a choice between Gill and Hamrlik, Gill wins hands down. Sure Hamrlik has a more rounded game, but what Gill brings to the table is far more valuable. He's an excellent balance for Subban, and his leadership can round Subban to be an elite defenseman. Look what he has already done for Subban, give him another year and Subban will be a no. 1 defenseman on any team. Gorges and Subban as the top defensive pair in a couple of years will be a great duo. All made possible because Gill solidified Gorges' and Subban's defensive ability. That is more valuable than a decent 2nd pair defenseman for a couple of years, because Hamrlik only has 3-4 years left anyway.

I hope Montreal does sign Wiz and Markov for at least next season, if they don't sign at least one fo them then they really need to put that money towards a big strong scoring forward, which they wouldn't need if Pouliot would play to his size.

Benny is what he is. We get over it and move on. Richer, Corson, Malakhov, Kostitsyn, Bulis, Zubrus etc, etc. never matched their potential, the best thing to do is assess the potential of him maxing out and if he isn't treat him as the asset he is and see if you can steal a more productive player based on his potential.

The Habs did this beautifully with Richer. Corson and Malakhov. They turned them into Damphousse, Muller and Souray all three were making an impact long after those three were done.

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Benny is what he is. We get over it and move on. Richer, Corson, Malakhov, Kostitsyn, Bulis, Zubrus etc, etc. never matched their potential, the best thing to do is assess the potential of him maxing out and if he isn't treat him as the asset he is and see if you can steal a more productive player based on his potential.

The Habs did this beautifully with Richer. Corson and Malakhov. They turned them into Damphousse, Muller and Souray all three were making an impact long after those three were done.

The problem is it has nothing to do with Pouliot's potential, absolutely nothing, it's his mentality. He doesn't have to change a thing about his skill level to be better, just needs to go to the front of the net and stay there. Even if he doesn't get a point the net presence and screen can produce goals. You don't need a great shot, good stick handling, blazing speed or good passing to screen the goalie and bury rebounds. All you need is to go to the net, stay there and keep your eye on the puck. A couple of tips here and there wouldn't hurt either. There's more to scoring than points. If he had a strong net presence he would have a spot on any team even if he doesn't get a point on the score sheet.

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The problem is it has nothing to do with Pouliot's potential, absolutely nothing, it's his mentality. He doesn't have to change a thing about his skill level to be better, just needs to go to the front of the net and stay there. Even if he doesn't get a point the net presence and screen can produce goals. You don't need a great shot, good stick handling, blazing speed or good passing to screen the goalie and bury rebounds. All you need is to go to the net, stay there and keep your eye on the puck. A couple of tips here and there wouldn't hurt either. There's more to scoring than points. If he had a strong net presence he would have a spot on any team even if he doesn't get a point on the score sheet.

Dream on, bud, Pouliot is almost certainly destined to be another in that long line of players who doesn't live up to their potential, for whatever reason. He will not do the things you want from him on any kind of consistent basis. Any more than Latendresse is likely to show up for training camps in good shape :rolleyes: Leopards, meet spots.

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I'd go with Hammer in a heart beat.

Hammer is better but Gill will be cheaper and I think has a larger leadership role. I really wish Montreal could keep all their D though, there's none I want to lose.

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