The Best Habs Free Agent Signing

[BCHabnut]

Don I really enjoy your devils advocate viewpoint, and quite often I agree with you but... Gretzky has more assists than the next guy has points. There were a few hundred players in his era. Probably a hundred in his era with long careers, yet none of them could even come close to his records. If it was an era thing, and he was not spectacular, someone would be a close second. There is no close second. There is no arguing it really. I'm sure you will though. Hahaha. Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time.

[DON]

Don I really enjoy your devils advocate viewpoint, and quite often I agree with you but... Gretzky has more assists than the next guy has points. There were a few hundred players in his era. Probably a hundred in his era with long careers, yet none of them could even come close to his records. If it was an era thing, and he was not spectacular, someone would be a close second. There is no close second. There is no arguing it really. I'm sure you will though. Hahaha. Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time.

Sorry, some days I would agree with you, but if you took a team of Bobby Orrs vs a team of Gretzkys, not sure it would be that one sided, do you?

You imagine Orr and Orr on defense pairings. Who would stop the Orr's on forward at the other end? Gretzky and Gretzky unlikely would hold up well.

(I know is goofy way to look at it, but how else could you compare)

(I think a team of Larry Robinson's might also fare well, but biased point of view for sure.)

[dlbalr]

You imagine Orr and Orr on defense pairings.

...and Don Cherry providing analysis on those pairings. Now that'd be something...

[DON]

...and Don Cherry providing analysis on those pairings. Now that'd be something...

I know is goofy, but how else best could you compare a past top forward and d-man if were ranking them?

D-men play a tougher position, score at a lower rate and obviously must play much more defense, which is important to winning as well.

[Commandant]

Don I really enjoy your devils advocate viewpoint, and quite often I agree with you but... Gretzky has more assists than the next guy has points. There were a few hundred players in his era. Probably a hundred in his era with long careers, yet none of them could even come close to his records. If it was an era thing, and he was not spectacular, someone would be a close second. There is no close second. There is no arguing it really. I'm sure you will though. Hahaha. Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time.

1000 points is a borderline hall of fame career.

Gretzky finished about 980 points ahead of the next closest guy (Messier). He finished more than 1000 points ahead of Gordie Howe. The difference between him and the next guy is almost a hall of fame career just on its own.

[Commandant]

The guys at Total Hockey also adjusted points for eras and how many goals was league average that year vs how many points each player got, etc.... Gretzky was still miles ahead of everyone else.

[DON]

1000 points is a borderline hall of fame career.

Gretzky finished about 980 points ahead of the next closest guy (Messier). He finished more than 1000 points ahead of Gordie Howe. The difference between him and the next guy is almost a hall of fame career just on its own.

Yes #s are mind numbing for sure.

The guys at Total Hockey also adjusted points for eras and how many goals was league average that year vs how many points each player got, etc.... Gretzky was still miles ahead of everyone else.

But, in 80s-90s scoring overall must be at its peak and almost every scoring record must come from that time (granted 99 owns a ton of them), Bossy rookie scoring, 99, 66, Selanne, Hull etc

[Commandant]

Yes #s are mind numbing for sure.

But, in 80s-90s scoring overall must be at its peak and almost every scoring record must come from that time (granted 99 owns a ton of them), Bossy rookie scoring, 99, 66, Selanne, Hull etc

They adjusted scoring by era... so they adjusted those numbers down.

Its a little more complicated than what i'm going to describe, but essentially this is what they did.

1) Figure out the Average goals per game in NHL history.

2) Figure out the average goals per game for each season.

3) figure out average nhl goals that season divided by average goals per game all-time

4) Multiply points scored that season by 1 over the factor in 3

5) Equalize all seasons to 80 games.

compare players

Gretzky's points are so mindnumbing that even when adjusting his stats down cause of the high scoring nature of the era, he's still miles ahead of anyone.

[DON]

They adjusted scoring by era... so they adjusted those numbers down.

Its a little more complicated than what i'm going to describe, but essentially this is what they did.

1) Figure out the Average goals per game in NHL history.

2) Figure out the average goals per game for each season.

3) figure out average nhl goals that season divided by average goals per game all-time

4) Multiply points scored that season by 1 over the factor in 3

5) Equalize all seasons to 80 games.

compare players

Gretzky's points are so mindnumbing that even when adjusting his stats down cause of the high scoring nature of the era, he's still miles ahead of anyone.

Sure, wouldnt doubt it...I wonder how does Lemieux stack up? He must be just a bit below in production, but obviously injuries/cancer were real kick in the nuts for his career #s.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Bobby Orr was a high-risk defenceman who made way too many flashy plays and would be a poor fit for Therrien's system, or DON's belief system which says that flashy players are evil incarnate. We should trade him for Lyle Odelein.

[illWill]

Sure, wouldnt doubt it...I wonder how does Lemieux stack up? He must be just a bit below in production, but obviously injuries/cancer were real kick in the nuts for his career #s.

I wish I didn't see these last posts, I might get riled up. I have literally fought physically and mentally with a friend of mine for 2 decades about who is better between Gretzky and Lemieux. I think Mario is the best player ever and is better than Gretzky for many reasons. I mean, his name actually translates to "the best".

[DON]

I wish I didn't see these last posts, I might get riled up. I have literally fought physically and mentally with a friend of mine for 2 decades about who is better between Gretzky and Lemieux. I think Mario is the best player ever and is better than Gretzky for many reasons. I mean, his name actually translates to "the best".

haha nice.

[BCHabnut]

I wasted several years of Bossy and Gretzky greatness as a kid. Lafleur was the greatest, therefore I had to hate Bossy, Gretzky, and Dionne. I was even too young to enjoy Lafleur's glory years. I didn't start watching a lot of hockey until 79. At least I don't remember it.

[Commandant]

Lemieux may have been more talented, but Gretzky was a better player.

One reason is that Lemieux had zero dedication to off-ice training. Lemieux himself admitted that he didn't take things seriously. From the day he was drafted the Penguins management, doctors and training staff wanted him to follow a regime to strengthen his core and his back, but he never did it. They predicted some of the serious back injuries he would have in the late 80s and early 90s (the stuff that was pre cancer obviously)... and he didn't do it. He preferred to play video games than to get into the gym.

Should this be ignored.

Or do we just say Lemieux and Gretzky were close in PPG (Even though Gretzky is still ahead)... Lemieux was just unlucky with injuries.

Was it unlucky, or was it partially his own fault?

Don't get me wrong, the Cancer sucks, and nothing you can do about that but call it unlucky....

but the 100s of games he missed before that due to herniated discs and other injuries he could have prevented... he doesn't get a pass to just say, oh if those didn't happen he would have scored more.

You can't give credit for what he might have done, but didn't actually do.

[illWill]

Lemieux may have been more talented, but Gretzky was a better player.

One reason is that Lemieux had zero dedication to off-ice training. Lemieux himself admitted that he didn't take things seriously. From the day he was drafted the Penguins management, doctors and training staff wanted him to follow a regime to strengthen his core and his back, but he never did it. They predicted some of the serious back injuries he would have in the late 80s and early 90s (the stuff that was pre cancer obviously)... and he didn't do it. He preferred to play video games than to get into the gym.

Should this be ignored.

Or do we just say Lemieux and Gretzky were close in PPG (Even though Gretzky is still ahead)... Lemieux was just unlucky with injuries.

Was it unlucky, or was it partially his own fault?

Don't get me wrong, the Cancer sucks, and nothing you can do about that but call it unlucky....

but the 100s of games he missed before that due to herniated discs and other injuries he could have prevented... he doesn't get a pass to just say, oh if those didn't happen he would have scored more.

You can't give credit for what he might have done, but didn't actually do.

If I remember correctly, Lemieux had the higher points per game until he came back the last time. He also started his career later in the high scoring era with a worse team than Gretzky and also played later into the dead puck era. Perhaps the back injuries were his fault for lack of conditioning, but just the fact that the guy had all those chronic injuries and cancer makes him all that much more remarkable for what he did on the ice.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I used to say Lemieux was better until a friend of mine had Oilers games on VHS from the early 80s. Wayne was more dominant than any player to ever play the game in his prime. Guys would try to open hit him and miss. He could shoot the puck from anywhere and score. He completely exposed the entire league and forced it to adapt.

I've watched a lot of Orr too and he was incredible too but he was more exposing the flaw in 60s defensive usage. It changed the game but he still existed in the league. Gretzky for years looked like he was supposed to be playing in a league higher than the NHL but couldn't since one didn't exist. Mario got closer to that than anyone but his greatest wasn't like Wayne's.

Honestly it's hard to argue unless you got the tapes. I know people who watched Gretzky back then and hated him so much they just forgot what impact he had every shift.

[Commandant]

If I remember correctly, Lemieux had the higher points per game until he came back the last time. He also started his career later in the high scoring era with a worse team than Gretzky and also played later into the dead puck era. Perhaps the back injuries were his fault for lack of conditioning, but just the fact that the guy had all those chronic injuries and cancer makes him all that much more remarkable for what he did on the ice.

Gretzky also saw his ppg fell in his final few seasons too, that's what happens when players are older, they don't score as much as they did before. Lemieux retired early the first time and then came back. Great his ppg was ahead cause he didn't play the lower point seasons that happen to anyone later in their career. Wayne did. When Lemieux came back and played those seasons, his numbers dropped too.

You could also argue gretzky's goal numbers plummetted after the Suter hit at the Canada Cup, and his own back injury (caused not by the conditioning, but the dirty hit) forced him to take away a big aspect of his game. But at this point with the injuries we are just playing fantasies. I prefer to look at what the players actually did, not what they maybe could have done without the ifs and buts.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I tend to agree with Commandant about Lemieux and dedication. Things came too easily for Mario IMHO. He was the single most talented player I have ever seen, including Gretzky. But Gretzky is the guy who owns the record book, has more Cups, and yes, dominated night in and night out to a greater degree than Mario. Lemieux was too busy complaining about clutching an grabbing, etc.. Wayne would just put his head down and play the game as only he could.

Both transcendent players, though.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I tend to agree with Commandant about Lemieux and dedication. Things came too easily for Mario IMHO. He was the single most talented player I have ever seen, including Gretzky. But Gretzky is the guy who owns the record book, has more Cups, and yes, dominated night in and night out to a greater degree than Mario. Lemieux was too busy complaining about clutching an grabbing, etc.. Wayne would just put his head down and play the game as only he could.

Both transcendent players, though.

Yeah, that ends up being the eye test vs. stats thing. For me, nobody was a better goal scorer in my time than Pavel Bure. Every goal he scored looked magnificent. And while other players scored more goals than him and he wasn't always the highlight reel scorer (plus he cherry picked a ton), there's just no player I recall scoring as many exciting goals than Pavel. Some players might get a fancy highlight reel, but Pavel was a highlight reel every season until New York. Too much focuses on his Canucks days but even in Florida he was scoring amazing goals.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Yeah, that ends up being the eye test vs. stats thing. For me, nobody was a better goal scorer in my time than Pavel Bure. Every goal he scored looked magnificent. And while other players scored more goals than him and he wasn't always the highlight reel scorer (plus he cherry picked a ton), there's just no player I recall scoring as many exciting goals than Pavel. Some players might get a fancy highlight reel, but Pavel was a highlight reel every season until New York. Too much focuses on his Canucks days but even in Florida he was scoring amazing goals.

Interestingly, that's another example of a stunningly talented, spectacular player being driven out of a Canadian market for reasons that had little to do with hockey. Something in the water I guess.

But yeah, Bure was a beauty.

In terms of the greatest player of all time, the only guy who can stand with Gretzky would seem to be Orr, who revolutionized the game and dominated on the level of 66/99. Mario might have been as talented as him, but didn't change the game like he did.

[DON]

I predict...Radulov!