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Bergevin: Long Term planning vs Short Term playoffs


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On trading Markov:

That's the point of this whole 'long-term planning' argument. Nobody disputes that the Habs should move (say) a washed-up Gionta for a 2nd round pick or some decent prospect. There's no argument at all about that. But there should also be no argument that Gio is gonna bag a franchise-defining pick. He isn't.

Markov might be our only aging asset that could command a return that could really make a difference in terms of our ability to become contenders in the medium or longer term. Zowpeb is simply wrong to say that we could trade Cole or Gio for 'another top-5 pick.' No team is going to make that trade. It will take Markov. If you're gonna talk 'tanking,' we have to face up to what it means. In our case, it means scorched earth on the blueline.

Again, I'm not saying we should trade him. What I'm saying is that IF you want to play this 'long term planning' game, THEN you look seriously at trading Markov. Yes, the consequence of this 'tanking' will be serious at least for the next season or two. That's what 'tanking' is about.

I don't really believe the tankers anyway. My guess is that they'll be all happy in Year One of the tank; start to get restless in Year Two; and go absolutely batcrap with rage by Year Three.

All that said, if we were to trade The General for a stellar return and paper over the loss with a Dan Hamhuis-style free agent signing, that could actually work out rather well. Anything's possible.

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Well said Habs Rule. I can't believe people are proposing trading Markov. Yes, Subban will be good some day, he might even become better than Markov, but that day isn't today. We still NEED Markov and his passing skills, his PowerPlay quarterbacking abilities and his sound play overall.

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over these trade rumours. Even though I agree with Brobin (I'd give a second rounder instead of a first rounder) this deal won't happen. Ryan O'reilly is asking for a long term deal worth 5 million a year.

We just went through a "war" with Subban because he also wanted a long term deal. How could the Habs justify going out and signing O'Reilly to a long term contract when we said no to Price, MaxPac and Subban.

Unless Bergevin can convince O'reilly to accept a 2 year bridge contract, this deal ain't happening!

O'Reilly apparently has rejected the 'Duchene bridge,' a 2 year, $7 M deal from the Avs. It seems he's looking for Plekanec-type money which, given that he has one career season above 26 points, is asking too much. He absolutely would be a great player to have (he's even above average on faceoffs) but until his asking price gets into semi-reasonable territory, I can't see the Habs seriously considering him.

As for the alleged rumour in the 1st post, beyond the fact it's someone proven to invent things (does he really expect us to believe that Therrien confides secrets to him?), Johnson is out indefinitely with a head injury. I think this one can be debunked, no one better be losing sleep over it.

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If bergevin were crazy enough to make the deal and then pay what O'Reilly wants, he would lose all credibility with every membe of the team and all the fans. He just ain't that stupid. He would have to wear a disguise to attend games. :lol::habslogo:

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markov will not show his full recovery/ potential until year 2 of his return. sure he's a full year post op. however, he's not in his 2nd season yet. what he is showing is fatigue after playing already 14+18 games combined this season approx. im pretty confident that it is not knee fatigue or "slowing down" but fatigue in general as he hasnt played this much hockey in over 2 years (and he's logged substantial minutes every game). i believe he is looking to find his legs again over an 82 game schedule.

with that said, if you list the countless number of players who have suffered the same injury from tom brady and A. Peterson to roberto baggio and ronaldo to tim hardaway and baron davis. all of them returned to there prior glory, the question is how long it took all of them to get there!!

-tom brady is tom brady still!

-A.peterson just ran over all NFL opponents!

-baggio (2 acl's) won a golden ball and scored over 200 goals.

-ronaldo (3 acl's on both knees) became one of the greatest strikers the world has ever seen

-tim hardaway became a perennial all star year after year

-who would suspect baron davis blew out his knee in college before making the NBA.

-there is a 100% return rate in the NHL to torn Acl's.

-there is currently 18 NBA players playing big minutes this year all with fixed knees's!

-there's a million nflers with reconstructs!

-Alex Galchenyuk went 3rd overall!!!!!!!!!

most showed glimpses of there former self for stretches in there first full seaon back but none truly broke out until there 2nd year.

Markov is an elite defencemen who was never ever considered remotely fast or agile for that matter! I believe he will be able to play an elite game for at least another 3/4 years (because of age not knee) barring any more catastrophic injuries sustained based soley on his style of play. he is not a bruiser, never been a speed demon.

he has the ability to play the game in his head at a slow place. he reads the game, anticipates moves and out thinks his opponents. he's positionally sound at both ends of the ice! he is all class! markov is and will be fine! he actually will get better!

then there's the whole "koivu was never the same" after his knee thing. But what body of work had koivu shown us prior to his knee injury. not much if any..... sure he was having a strong 2nd year before blowing out his knee with just over 50P in 50G but he did only score 45 in a full season the year prior in his rookie season.

the fact is he never had that potent offensive ability/ talent to dangle like kovy or vision to pass like oates or snip like selanne and we all know that is why he was never able to put up the points as a #1C should not because of a torn knee.... but he was the best damn #2C!

BTW im also pretty sure moen gio and cole all have no trade clauses and andrei is..... "the giant"!! no deals to be made here!

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markov will not show his full recovery/ potential until year 2 of his return. sure he's a full year post op. however, he's not in his 2nd season yet. what he is showing is fatigue after playing already 14+18 games combined this season approx. im pretty confident that it is not knee fatigue or "slowing down" but fatigue in general as he hasnt played this much hockey in over 2 years (and he's logged substantial minutes every game). i believe he is looking to find his legs again over an 82 game schedule.

with that said, if you list the countless number of players who have suffered the same injury from tom brady and A. Peterson to roberto baggio and ronaldo to tim hardaway and baron davis. all of them returned to there prior glory, the question is how long it took all of them to get there!!

-tom brady is tom brady still!

-A.peterson just ran over all NFL opponents!

-baggio (2 acl's) won a golden ball and scored over 200 goals.

-ronaldo (3 acl's on both knees) became one of the greatest strikers the world has ever seen

-tim hardaway became a perennial all star year after year

-who would suspect baron davis blew out his knee in college before making the NBA.

-there is a 100% return rate in the NHL to torn Acl's.

-there is currently 18 NBA players playing big minutes this year all with fixed knees's!

-there's a million nflers with reconstructs!

-Alex Galchenyuk went 3rd overall!!!!!!!!!

most showed glimpses of there former self for stretches in there first full seaon back but none truly broke out until there 2nd year.

Markov is an elite defencemen who was never ever considered remotely fast or agile for that matter! I believe he will be able to play an elite game for at least another 3/4 years (because of age not knee) barring any more catastrophic injuries sustained based soley on his style of play. he is not a bruiser, never been a speed demon.

he has the ability to play the game in his head at a slow place. he reads the game, anticipates moves and out thinks his opponents. he's positionally sound at both ends of the ice! he is all class! markov is and will be fine! he actually will get better!

then there's the whole "koivu was never the same" after his knee thing. But what body of work had koivu shown us prior to his knee injury. not much if any..... sure he was having a strong 2nd year before blowing out his knee with just over 50P in 50G but he did only score 45 in a full season the year prior in his rookie season.

the fact is he never had that potent offensive ability/ talent to dangle like kovy or vision to pass like oates or snip like selanne and we all know that is why he was never able to put up the points as a #1C should not because of a torn knee.... but he was the best damn #2C!

BTW im also pretty sure moen gio and cole all have no trade clauses and andrei is..... "the giant"!! no deals to be made here!

thats a great post . kudos on the research done. of course I also agree with you. :rolleyes::habslogo:

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I would trade Eller for O'Rreilly straight up in an instant.

If they could sign him to a reasonable deal- which seems impossible.

there are only 2 problems with your post A: they wont take eller straight up B: we cannot sign him........ so yes impossible :habslogo:

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I'm kind of stunned that people are talking of trading Markov. After everything this guy has been through, his first full season back and people want to move him. The guy is a top 10 defenceman in the league which is not something we have been overendowed with over the last decade (or more)

What about being a classy organisation and looking after our players?

Everyone says we should build a team like Detroit, well you didn't see them trading Lidstrom and look at the loyalty he gave them both in sticking with the club and taking a home town discount.

I for one would like to see Markov here until he decides to retire, as stated earlier his game is not built around speed and I think he would be an excellent player and mentor for a few years yet.

PS: This does not mean I don't support building a team through trades, just I don't think Markov should be traded

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100% agree! Koivu also should have been allowed to retire as a hab. That is something that you would have thought would have been a no brainer for a guy like Gainey.

I'm kind of stunned that people are talking of trading Markov. After everything this guy has been through, his first full season back and people want to move him. The guy is a top 10 defenceman in the league which is not something we have been overendowed with over the last decade (or more)

What about being a classy organisation and looking after our players?

Everyone says we should build a team like Detroit, well you didn't see them trading Lidstrom and look at the loyalty he gave them both in sticking with the club and taking a home town discount.

I for one would like to see Markov here until he decides to retire, as stated earlier his game is not built around speed and I think he would be an excellent player and mentor for a few years yet.

PS: This does not mean I don't support building a team through trades, just I don't think Markov should be traded

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Gaineys loyalty to Koivu was lost after seeing how he was in the locker room when he coached to replace Carbonneau.

That's BS. I still don't get how could continue to support and endure a primma Donna like Kovolev. How could that dressing room be good with the preferential treatment that Kovolev got.

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That's BS. I still don't get how could continue to support and endure a primma Donna like Kovolev. How could that dressing room be good with the preferential treatment that Kovolev got.

Beats me. Gainey broke his mid-season negotiation rule with Koivu so it isn't like he never liked him or anything. But something changed when Gainey got behind the bench in 2009. Koivu was unceremoniously let go. He was unwilling to pay Kovalev more than $5M (when original rumours were Kovalev asking $7M) and wouldn't wait for him to make up his mind. He went from believing Komisarek was necessary to the future of the Canadiens to letting him walk to Northeast rival Toronto. Then Gainey went ahead, went on a free agent spree and signed more free agents than any other team.

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Defencemen like Markov can last a long time. I don't think Markov will be too old when this team is ready to contend.

In the meantime, PK Subban has a lot to learn as an offensive D... who better to learn from than Andrei Markov. The same can be said when Beaulieu reaches the NHL.

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Actually, I though he did try and sign Komi, but was offered 500k less than Toronto (thankfully). With kovy, the issue was Gainey was only offering one year, while he wanted 2 years and also tried to get more money, so Gainey went and signed Gionta instead.

Can't think how much better things would have been if we still had koivu and McDonough.

Beats me. Gainey broke his mid-season negotiation rule with Koivu so it isn't like he never liked him or anything. But something changed when Gainey got behind the bench in 2009. Koivu was unceremoniously let go. He was unwilling to pay Kovalev more than $5M (when original rumours were Kovalev asking $7M) and wouldn't wait for him to make up his mind. He went from believing Komisarek was necessary to the future of the Canadiens to letting him walk to Northeast rival Toronto. Then Gainey went ahead, went on a free agent spree and signed more free agents than any other team.

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I agree 100%. That was the same mistake Savard made when he traded or let Robinson, green, Ludwig and svoboda go all at once, because of the young dmen in the system. Then turned around and traded Chelios, Schneider, and Desjardins. Markov should retire a hab.

The number of young dman we have is also why I wanted Robinson as an assistant coach. There was another interview with Robinson last month when he again reiterated how much he wanted to comme back to Montreal, but they weren't willing to wait until he dealt with his flood issue.

Defencemen like Markov can last a long time. I don't think Markov will be too old when this team is ready to contend.

In the meantime, PK Subban has a lot to learn as an offensive D... who better to learn from than Andrei Markov. The same can be said when Beaulieu reaches the NHL.

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Beats me. Gainey broke his mid-season negotiation rule with Koivu so it isn't like he never liked him or anything. But something changed when Gainey got behind the bench in 2009. Koivu was unceremoniously let go. He was unwilling to pay Kovalev more than $5M (when original rumours were Kovalev asking $7M) and wouldn't wait for him to make up his mind. He went from believing Komisarek was necessary to the future of the Canadiens to letting him walk to Northeast rival Toronto. Then Gainey went ahead, went on a free agent spree and signed more free agents than any other team.

Yeah, apparently Bob had a deal all ready for Koivu's signature. Then he went behind the bench and everything changed. It's interesting to speculate on what happened there. Myself, I think that he really saw from close-up what I remember noticing from afar in 2009, which is that Koivu's footspeed was significantly declining. He perhaps underestimated how much more of a shelf-life Saku had. I also believe that Bob was just very, very angry at that team - its attitude and its overall comportment - and this led him to decide to fire-bomb the entire thing, start from scratch. I don't think that was purely cold, rational analysis. I think it was (to some degree) a reflection of a personal sense of betrayal and disappointment in the team he had so arduously nurtured.

Why try to keep Kovy, then? My guess is that of all those players (other than Markov), only Kovy had the pure talent to be a genuine difference maker. All the other guys had qualities he figured he could replace.

The 2009 team and meltdown is one of the more interesting collective dramas/soap operas in Habs history. But I doubt we'll ever know the real story.

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I for one would like to see Markov here until he decides to retire, as stated earlier his game is not built around speed and I think he would be an excellent player and mentor for a few years yet.

Well said. I competely agree.

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There was another interview with Robinson last month when he again reiterated how much he wanted to comme back to Montreal, but they weren't willing to wait until he dealt with his flood issue.

Where did you see this interview? I'd love to see/hear it!!

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Yeah, apparently Bob had a deal all ready for Koivu's signature. Then he went behind the bench and everything changed. It's interesting to speculate on what happened there. Myself, I think that he really saw from close-up what I remember noticing from afar in 2009, which is that Koivu's footspeed was significantly declining. He perhaps underestimated how much more of a shelf-life Saku had. I also believe that Bob was just very, very angry at that team - its attitude and its overall comportment - and this led him to decide to fire-bomb the entire thing, start from scratch. I don't think that was purely cold, rational analysis. I think it was (to some degree) a reflection of a personal sense of betrayal and disappointment in the team he had so arduously nurtured.

Why try to keep Kovy, then? My guess is that of all those players (other than Markov), only Kovy had the pure talent to be a genuine difference maker. All the other guys had qualities he figured he could replace.

The 2009 team and meltdown is one of the more interesting collective dramas/soap operas in Habs history. But I doubt we'll ever know the real story.

He tried to keep Kovalev and Komisarek. Tanguay just didn't work out. Lang got hurt and was invited to camp but wanted a contract. Laraque was bought out. It wasn't originally planned as a complete clean out but that's what ended up happening. It's easy to forget that Kovalev was still the Canadiens leading scorer in both the post-season and regular season.

That season was an absolute mess but I always heard that Gainey was disappointed with how Koivu operated as captain. Just about every year he was captain there was someone trying to step up into his job or rookies out of control. At one point I recall the locker room was sliced in three: Koivu's Gang (Koivu, Rivet, Souray, etc.), Ribeiro's Gang (Ribeiro, Theodore, Daignais, etc.) and Kovalev's Gang (Kovalev, Hamrlik, a lot of younger players, etc.) and after the lockout, Gainey traded players from each "gang" in hopes of getting the team closer together. Instead, once Komisarek and Higgins got older they just started their own crew and were a terrible influence to the younger players. This is all whispers and murmurs of course.

The biggest rumour I remember is that around the end of the season, Gainey found out that Higgins and Komisarek were staying out late with Price and Gorges and getting them into cocaine. That's why Gainey brought in Hal Gill to watch over them and make sure their careers got on the right path. Price and Higgins both had spectacularly bad seasons where they couldn't do anything right. Higgins didn't have an influence like Gill around and eventually just became a third line winger. Price and Gorges had great leadership and rebounded completely.

I think one day we will see books come out from people who were involved in it. The reason why the "Plane circling around Montreal" story got such a crazy reaction is because the journalists knew of a lot of stories they had heard and thought it was going to be all of the stories. Instead, it was just Hamrlik and the Kostitsyn's involved with mob figures.

2008-2009 was such a **** show.

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He tried to keep Kovalev and Komisarek. Tanguay just didn't work out. Lang got hurt and was invited to camp but wanted a contract. Laraque was bought out. It wasn't originally planned as a complete clean out but that's what ended up happening. It's easy to forget that Kovalev was still the Canadiens leading scorer in both the post-season and regular season.

That season was an absolute mess but I always heard that Gainey was disappointed with how Koivu operated as captain. Just about every year he was captain there was someone trying to step up into his job or rookies out of control. At one point I recall the locker room was sliced in three: Koivu's Gang (Koivu, Rivet, Souray, etc.), Ribeiro's Gang (Ribeiro, Theodore, Daignais, etc.) and Kovalev's Gang (Kovalev, Hamrlik, a lot of younger players, etc.) and after the lockout, Gainey traded players from each "gang" in hopes of getting the team closer together. Instead, once Komisarek and Higgins got older they just started their own crew and were a terrible influence to the younger players. This is all whispers and murmurs of course.

The biggest rumour I remember is that around the end of the season, Gainey found out that Higgins and Komisarek were staying out late with Price and Gorges and getting them into cocaine. That's why Gainey brought in Hal Gill to watch over them and make sure their careers got on the right path. Price and Higgins both had spectacularly bad seasons where they couldn't do anything right. Higgins didn't have an influence like Gill around and eventually just became a third line winger. Price and Gorges had great leadership and rebounded completely.

I think one day we will see books come out from people who were involved in it. The reason why the "Plane circling around Montreal" story got such a crazy reaction is because the journalists knew of a lot of stories they had heard and thought it was going to be all of the stories. Instead, it was just Hamrlik and the Kostitsyn's involved with mob figures.

2008-2009 was such a **** show.

Plane circling around montreal??? I was living in Greece in 2009 and missed out on that. Care to elaborate?
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Where did you see this interview? I'd love to see/hear it!!

It was an article in the Edmonton Journal - linked it through Kukla's corner - if i remember correctly Matheson interviewed Robinson.

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Plane circling around montreal??? I was living in Greece in 2009 and missed out on that. Care to elaborate?

Some Montreal mafia members were being followed by the police and found Roman Hamrlik, Sergei Kostitsyn and Andrei Kostitsyn were hanging out with them. It was less "shady business" and more "wealthy people hanging out with wealthy people". When word got out that the police were looking into some Canadiens players, the Montreal media freaked the F out. There was rumours it was Price for cocaine possession (or underage sex, that was another one) and everything under the sun because people in the media knew about the partying in Montreal. I think the plane was the Canadiens plane was supposed to land when the news was out and the team plane took a few extra circles before it landed. So it has been a joke on some message boards now that," the plane is circling!"

It was a pretty crazy time to be a Habs fan paying attention to rumours. In the end there were no charges but we now knew more about the Canadiens night life than we should have. It also came out around this time that Hamrlik was a big gambler.

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This one's not from the Edmonton Journal but the Gazette/HIO has the same story. http://www.hockeyinsideout.com/news/exclusive-would-have-been-interesting-robinson-says-of-habs-post

I read this one as well in the summer. The one I read was a lot more recent, I think it was just before or after a Oilers-Sharks game. Around the time that Gomez signed on with the Sharks.

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