dlbalr Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 sounds good but lets go 4/2.25 or 2.5 on Eller. There's a decent chance a one year deal will fall in that range. A multi-year pact will likely cost considerably more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I really hope MB has not decided to play hardball, here. We simply cannot afford NOT to lock up PK Subban to a long term deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Why cant just give him a shorter deal? I would like a medium length deal for him, but really don't know what is best, nor really care a lot, got some faith in Habs management to balance cap and contracts much better than I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I really hope MB has not decided to play hardball, here. We simply cannot afford NOT to lock up PK Subban to a long term deal. He can't just cave in and give Subban whatever he wants either. It's a negotiation and I think everyone knew that this next contract wasn't going to get done in a hurry, especially given how the last talks went. Just because it's not done yet doesn't mean that Bergevin is playing hardball. For all we know, the Habs could have a reasonable offer on the table and it's Subban/Meehan that are asking for an exorbitant amount. The deal will get done. What remains to be seen is if it's a long-term pact or a one year contract that gives them more time to work on the long-term one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 He can't just cave in and give Subban whatever he wants either. It's a negotiation and I think everyone knew that this next contract wasn't going to get done in a hurry, especially given how the last talks went. Just because it's not done yet doesn't mean that Bergevin is playing hardball. For all we know, the Habs could have a reasonable offer on the table and it's Subban/Meehan that are asking for an exorbitant amount. The deal will get done. What remains to be seen is if it's a long-term pact or a one year contract that gives them more time to work on the long-term one. I read somewhere Subban is staying completely out of the negotiation. It's Meehan and Bergevin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I read somewhere Subban is staying completely out of the negotiation. It's Meehan and Bergevin. Same here. That's likely the case with a lot of contracts, that's what the agents are there for. I'm sure Subban has indicated a preference (short-term/long-term) but that's all he really needs to do until the terms are close to being agreed upon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Well, it's also possible Meehan is playing hardball. Seriously, though, if MB is offering less than 7.5 million for 8 years, with the flexibility to go up to 8.5 million, he's not bargaining in good faith. Likewise, if Meehan is unlikely to go below 9 million, he's also not bargaining in good faith. Subban's value is pretty much agreed upon across the board by every analyist, sports-writer, and fan. If the two sides are less than a million apart, this should already be signed. If they're more than a million apart, someone isn't thinking realisticly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Well, it's also possible Meehan is playing hardball. Seriously, though, if MB is offering less than 7.5 million for 8 years, with the flexibility to go up to 8.5 million, he's not bargaining in good faith. Likewise, if Meehan is unlikely to go below 9 million, he's also not bargaining in good faith. Subban's value is pretty much agreed upon across the board by every analyist, sports-writer, and fan. If the two sides are less than a million apart, this should already be signed. If they're more than a million apart, someone isn't thinking realisticly. Totally sympathetic to this post. However, there's a difference between what a player is "worth" in terms of comparables, and what he would be "worth" on the open market. In terms of comparables, he should make no more than Doughty, who has a superior resumé. If Subban's main concern is to max out his income, then he can quite "realistically" ask for $9 million+, because he quite likely could get that much as a UFA. I know that RFAs are not the same as UFAs, but my point is just that if he's looking for his "actual market value" instead of comparables, he'll throw out a figure that does strike us as inflated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Totally sympathetic to this post. However, there's a difference between what a player is "worth" in terms of comparables, and what he would be "worth" on the open market. In terms of comparables, he should make no more than Doughty, who has a superior resumé. If Subban's main concern is to max out his income, then he can quite "realistically" ask for $9 million+, because he quite likely could get that much as a UFA. I know that RFAs are not the same as UFAs, but my point is just that if he's looking for his "actual market value" instead of comparables, he'll throw out a figure that does strike us as inflated. The RFA part most 'seem' to be ignoring when comparing salaries of other d-men. If Subban wants long term deal he wont get max $$ that a UFA would. Would he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 The chess game is easy to figure out. Subban wants to be a Hab. Leverage: Montreal Subban is not replaceable on the market or in the system. Leverage: Subban Subban has a Norris trophy. Leverage: Subban Nobody in the NHL really has the money to offer Subban an offer sheet prior to arbitration. Leverage: Montreal Subban accepted less money in last contract negotiation. Leverage: Wash (Subban can't ask to be paid what he lost from last contract but Montreal can't feasibly ask for a discount due to getting one already) Subban wants a long term deal. Leverage: Montreal Subban went to arbitration, which means he could get a short term contract given to him that allows him to get a contract in two years when the CBA goes up due to the Canadian TV deal and there will be even more teams desperate for a top flight D-man. Leverage: Subban What isn't easy is the price Subban gets. The wrench isn't Montreal or Subban really. It's the new CBA. Go look at Ryan Suter. Suter will make $11M next season after two years of making $12M per season in Minnesota. But ask most people and they will say he's a $7.5M defenceman. He isn't. He's going to have four years of making $9M per season, then $8M before a big drop to $6M and $2M. That was allowed before the new CBA kicked in. So there's going to be more cap available for a guy like Subban but you now have to pay Subban like a top defenceman. Only a lot of the top defencemen in the league have low cap hits with high salaries in the first few seasons. The benchmark for a top defenceman is at least $7M if after their second contract (Doughty and Karlsson are exceptions). Nobody expects Subban to get the $14M that Weber is going to make, but he will make more than half. TL:DR Subban will eventually make $8-8.5M per year on the salary cap, which will appear very high but really isn't compared to Suter/Weber/Myers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 You don't really pay attention to the individual yearly salaries on a front-loaded contract, anyway. If the contract is 11 million this year, 10 million next year, then 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4...it's a 60 million dollar, 8 year contract for 7.5 a year. I know the new CBA restricted that further, but Shea Weber is not making 14 million this year. He's making 7.8 million with an early advance on his salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 You can't simply take the annual average of those deals. They are basically retirement deals, there's no gaurantee Sutwr or weber will be playing when those contracts expire, or if they will be worth their cap hit. You are also totally ignoring the time value of money of receiving around 1/3 to 1/2 of the salary in the early years of the deal. You don't really pay attention to the individual yearly salaries on a front-loaded contract, anyway. If the contract is 11 million this year, 10 million next year, then 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4...it's a 60 million dollar, 8 year contract for 7.5 a year. I know the new CBA restricted that further, but Shea Weber is not making 14 million this year. He's making 7.8 million with an early advance on his salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 The 8 years at 10.5 million that Kane and Toews got today won't help this negotiation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 The 8 years at 10.5 million that Kane and Toews got today won't help this negotiation. It shouldn't hurt it either. Those players were heading to UFA next year, Subban's an RFA both this offseason and next. These certainly couldn't be used as comparable contracts should it actually go to arbitration. Subban will get his long-term deal regardless of what Kane/Toews did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 It shouldn't hurt it either. Those players were heading to UFA next year, Subban's an RFA both this offseason and next. These certainly couldn't be used as comparable contracts should it actually go to arbitration. Subban will get his long-term deal regardless of what Kane/Toews did.Yup, Subban deserves every penny in my opinion too. Think of this team without P.K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuternoga Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 The 8 years at 10.5 million that Kane and Toews got today won't help this negotiation. 21 millions - 2 players. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Meehan won't have much of a case with Toews/Kane. When comparing forwards with defencemen, the team can say then it's fair to compare forward points with defenceman points. That's why teams rarely do it. The problem for Meehan is that almost all of Subban's comparables took hometown discounts on their RFA deals. Pietrangelo, McDonaugh and Doughty means they only have Doughty (a Meehan client) to compare. Doughty was Meehan's comparison at first go around. Then you have Karlsson who took a long term deal on his first RFA contract. After that it's UFA year guys like Phaneuf, Suter, Letang and Bouwmeester. Meehan has to argue that in the new CBA era, Subban's value is closer to what Ryan Suter and Shea Weber actually make instead of their cap hit. And that's a tough battle. But it's a battle he'll likely win in ensuring Subban makes over $7.5M per season. And if anything? It caps Subban at under $10.5M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Note that I'm not talking about what happens if this goes to arbitration. If this goes to arbitration, it's been a colossal failure and we'll likely lose Subban in 2 years. If it does go to arbitration, what other players have been awarded is specifically not admissable as evidence for an arbitration hearing. I'm simply saying that Kane and Toews have upped the bar for what the top limits are for player salary. Prior to these two, anything over 8 million as an average over a long contract simply did not happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 What the fv.ck is Zoot suit waiting for??? The longer he waits, the more it'll cost us to sign Subban. A few months ago, I was certain we could sign Subban for 7 million$ per year. Now i'm not sure we'll be able to get him for anything less than 8.5 million$ per year! I wouldn't be surprised if he were to get 9 million$ per year...which I think is too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 August 1st is Subban's arbitration date so there's still three weeks to get a long-term move worked out. Eller's is a bit earlier, July 25th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Screw Eller! I like the kid, but getting a deal done with Subban is WAYYY more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Screw Eller! I like the kid, but getting a deal done with Subban is WAYYY more important. It's not like they can't do both. Bergevin isn't negotiating with Meehan for 12+ hours a day here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 How many of those hometown discounts were forced to take a bridge deal. If you consider what Subban made in year 4 and 5, the discount for those players included years 4 and 5 and has fewer UFA years. Meehan won't have much of a case with Toews/Kane. When comparing forwards with defencemen, the team can say then it's fair to compare forward points with defenceman points. That's why teams rarely do it. The problem for Meehan is that almost all of Subban's comparables took hometown discounts on their RFA deals. Pietrangelo, McDonaugh and Doughty means they only have Doughty (a Meehan client) to compare. Doughty was Meehan's comparison at first go around. Then you have Karlsson who took a long term deal on his first RFA contract. After that it's UFA year guys like Phaneuf, Suter, Letang and Bouwmeester. Meehan has to argue that in the new CBA era, Subban's value is closer to what Ryan Suter and Shea Weber actually make instead of their cap hit. And that's a tough battle. But it's a battle he'll likely win in ensuring Subban makes over $7.5M per season. And if anything? It caps Subban at under $10.5M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Screw Eller! What is panic all about? You talk as if all of a sudden the playing field has changed a lot for Bergevin/Meehan re Subban? Subban's future contract(s) likely has been a priority discussion for past year or so. Not saying Bergevin will make right call, but by now am sure they have it down to a couple options; maybe plan is just to let it go to arbitration? I don't know enough about cap/salaries to worry too much about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 The two sides will have to go by the value of "today" for Subban, hard for comparisons with contracts signed even only as far back as a year or two ago, I'm sure it will be done before arbitration, if not I wouldn't bank on Subban being a Hab for very long..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.