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Galchenyuk at Center


Trizzak

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I've talked about the Eller fascination here before. He's young, he does well at the start of the season and the end of the season when fans are paying the most attention, and he's big. He's someone you want to root for, definitely. But does anyone remember games 55-75 when he was averaging two offensive zone penalties a week?

I also think certain "types" of players are given more and less scrutiny/credit that others.

More-

+ Players with rough postseason stats

+ Europeans

+ Five foot players

+ The endless carping about #1 defensemen and centers

Less-

+ Rookies

+ Players with size

+ Fighters. Not goons, but guys who fight 2-7 ideas are valued more than some Presidents

+ Canadians

Not sure about the Euro/Canadian angle; I think Habs fans are equal-opportunity mollycoddlers, just as happy to make endless excuses for Euros and for (say) a Latendresse or other Canadian dud. In these parts, Jan Bulis, Andrei Kostitsyn and now Lars Eller have all been adored and mollycoddled despite their general mediocrity, the beneficiaries of infinite excuses such that it's always someone else's fault when they suck. Poor l'il babies, they don't have to produce unless everything is JUUUUUUST right. Meanwhile blood-and-guts reliables like Pleks get treated like disposable tampons.

But you're broadly correct, especially on the "five foot players" and the "carping about #1 C" parts. DD produces at a PPG clip for 60 games and yet is more poorly regarded than Eller by many, even though Eller hasn't put together a grand total of 60 good games in his entire career. Why? Because people obsess over size and over the "#1 C" label. The "rookie" thing is true too; I'd modify it to "rookies and prospects." The number of times people on this board have seriously proposed lineups where raw rookies play crucial roles is borderline comical. Folks LUUUUV rookies and prospects because they are untarnished, blank slates - we can read onto them all the wonderful attributes we want, and none of the flaws that ACTUAL roster players actually possess. Then, of course, when the beloved young player turns out to be flawed, we can all blame the coach or the organization for messing them up, before they're shipped out and we all start mooning over the next wave of prospects.

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Eller and Pacioretty played together? don't recall that.

They didn't play together much. They played 4-on-4 a bit (just under 46 minutes, but 36 of those were SH). Pacioretty-Eller-Briere also saw a bit of time together (just under 29 minutes). At most though, they may have played on the same unit for a couple of minutes per game.

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I think you are undervaluing Plekanec and as other GMs have said, he is one of most underrated players in league and would love to add him to their team.

I remember commentators on american telecast for some US team were interviewing GM and asked why their PP has sucked in game and he said it is mostly due to being shutdown by Plekanec and he went on to sing the praises of Tomas (Dallas GM I think it was?).

Agreed! I think Plekanec has a lot better chance to succeed playing Desharnais's role, than Desharnais would have playing Plekanec's. I think Desharnais has more value in Montreal than anywhere else. Nobody has convinced me that he is even movable.

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I'm clearly not undervaluing plex... simply saying were i would employ him to have optimum balance throughout our line up. come on an elite shut down centre in the league able to pot 20+ on the 3rd line??? thats fantastic and what cup teams are made of......technically saying to employ him in a role similar to guy carbonneau is a tribute and compliment to plex as Guy was one of my all time favourite habs growing up......

This is an important distinction, btw.

Too many people here say things like, "We shouldn't be paying that for a third line player..."

WRONG. We run three roughly equally talented lines, and a fourth line that can outplay most team's third lines. We give the top three rougly equal ice time, and even put our fourth line out there quite regularly. This is how good teams are built. You don't buy one line of superstars and fill in the rest with also-rans.

The first line = biggest offensive threat. These guys shouldn't be seeing more than 15-20 minutes of ice time.

The second line = next biggest offensive threat, hopefully not much different than the first. 15 minutes of ice time here.

The third line = Shutdown defensive line, hopefully with a bit of scoring threat to go with it. 15-20 minutes of ice time a game.

The fourth line = little bit of everything. You need competent people here who aren't going to cost you a game. 10 minutes of ice time.

The 5th and 6th defensemen on a team need to actually be more like the third line than the fourth line - because you WILL use them minimum 15 minutes a game.

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I think you are undervaluing Plekanec and as other GMs have said, he is one of most underrated players in league and would love to add him to their team.

I remember commentators on american telecast for some US team were interviewing GM and asked why their PP has sucked in game and he said it is mostly due to being shutdown by Plekanec and he went on to sing the praises of Tomas (Dallas GM I think it was?).

If he has such good value, it's an excellent reason to trade him. As far as I am concerned, he doesn't deliver in the playoffs and it's what counts to me.

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If he has such good value, it's an excellent reason to trade him. As far as I am concerned, he doesn't deliver in the playoffs and it's what counts to me.

Not many teams who dont make playoffs win a cup and if you think trading Plekanec will help ensure they get into playoffs, I think you are mistaken and as most do, undervalue what Tomas brings to the table.

His under performing in playoffs is what sunk them is it?

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Plekanec hasn't made one big playoff splash in his career, but you can't replace him with guys like Teddy Purcell, Ville Leino or Joel Ward who go bananas in the postseason for some odd reason.

The regular season counts. Next year, the regular season will be the difference between a first round series against Detroit, Tampa or Florida instead of the Beantown Juggernaut.

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If someone is thinking of moving a centre to make room for Galchenyuk. Not a f'in hope Galchenyuk can come close to filling Plekanec's skates, yet!

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All the Plekanec love is commendable guys.... but you compare younger players to him, in this stage of their careers, in what he excels at and that's hardly fair...

Lets compare his speed and puck skill to Galchenyuk... not close.

Let's compare his shot to Patcioretty's...not close.

Let's compare his "effort level" to Gallagher's, again not close.

Let's compare what he does in the playoffs, I know, he has the same PPG in the playoffs, blah, blah, blah...but what about last playoffs at -7, and he lead us to get shut out last game?

Plek's has a great, all round, consistant game, and is the best complete hockey player on the team, but you have to compare apples to apples.

Saying that Eller or Galchenyuk cannot take his place is a no brainer, they can't, but they may bring more to the team in another capacity, and be great players in their own right.

Not advocating trading Plek, I have before, but not as the team stands now, no way I trade him, he is indeed a centerpiece for us. But as good as he is, he's no Guy Carbonneau either.... however he is essential on this Habs team being a consistant winning team.

Although the Habs have no heir apparent in his role, it doesn't mean the team couldn't be improved overall by trading him, it of course depends on the return, and he isn't going to be the "one" that stands out individually, and leads us to the cup either.

Just to see fair comparisons would be refreshing.... I don't see Eller or Galchenyuk as better than Plek at what he does, there are few in the league better at what he does, and I don't want to see either of those guys replace what he does, I want them to be more about scoring, and being physical, and they are both on the way to being better than him at that physical side of the game already... and they have a lot to learn to be close in other areas, granted.

We need them all, but in their own roles...

I'd see what training camp brings for that other winger, and go from there, there is no pressing need to trade Thomas Plekanec and weaken the team up the middle, to improve the wing... his defensive skill cannot be replaced with a 20 goal scorer, they don't make too many Plekanecs that can do both like he does, and he is a life long Hab, and maybe deserves a little loyalty out of you that want him traded, like Markov received this season.

Redundant argument since the Habs can't really afford to trade him, and really aren't likely to trade him....

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If he has such good value, it's an excellent reason to trade him. As far as I am concerned, he doesn't deliver in the playoffs and it's what counts to me.

last i checked plex's career playoffs stats are pretty much exactly what they are in regular season give or take.... add to that his ability to keep stamkos from running us over in round 1 and the kreici line that was lethal the year prior to pretty much non existent. our PK was even remarkable till we got blown up in the first 3 games of the ECF.....

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All the Plekanec love is commendable guys.... but you compare younger players to him, in this stage of their careers, in what he excels at and that's hardly fair...

Lets compare his speed and puck skill to Galchenyuk... not close.

Let's compare his shot to Patcioretty's...not close.

Let's compare his "effort level" to Gallagher's, again not close.

Let's compare what he does in the playoffs, I know, he has the same PPG in the playoffs, blah, blah, blah...but what about last playoffs at -7, and he lead us to get shut out last game?

Plek's has a great, all round, consistant game, and is the best complete hockey player on the team, but you have to compare apples to apples.

Saying that Eller or Galchenyuk cannot take his place is a no brainer, they can't, but they may bring more to the team in another capacity, and be great players in their own right.

Not advocating trading Plek, I have before, but not as the team stands now, no way I trade him, he is indeed a centerpiece for us. But as good as he is, he's no Guy Carbonneau either.... however he is essential on this Habs team being a consistant winning team.

Although the Habs have no heir apparent in his role, it doesn't mean the team couldn't be improved overall by trading him, it of course depends on the return, and he isn't going to be the "one" that stands out individually, and leads us to the cup either.

Just to see fair comparisons would be refreshing.... I don't see Eller or Galchenyuk as better than Plek at what he does, there are few in the league better at what he does, and I don't want to see either of those guys replace what he does, I want them to be more about scoring, and being physical, and they are both on the way to being better than him at that physical side of the game already... and they have a lot to learn to be close in other areas, granted.

We need them all, but in their own roles...

I'd see what training camp brings for that other winger, and go from there, there is no pressing need to trade Thomas Plekanec and weaken the team up the middle, to improve the wing... his defensive skill cannot be replaced with a 20 goal scorer, they don't make too many Plekanecs that can do both like he does, and he is a life long Hab, and maybe deserves a little loyalty out of you that want him traded, like Markov received this season.

Redundant argument since the Habs can't really afford to trade him, and really aren't likely to trade him....

guy carbonneau he is not thats for sure but, that role on our team is occupied by him... comparing apples to apples would not in any way be comparing gallagher to plex... it would be comparing the crop of C's we have now young, old big small... it doesn't matter! a Center is a Center!!... see what there strengths are and putting them in situations to succeed.

DD= best playmaker hands down with great vision (center #1 OFF line) #1PP C

eller= big,fast, throws the body, defensive responsible young and needs talented forwards (centre #2 line with a spark plug and a player oozing w/talent ready to burst EGG) #2PP C

plex= best all around centre... able to man mark any player in the league at any given time and still be effective in the OFF zone as well. ability to still chip in secondary scoring while playing with marginal wingers... #1PK specialist on one of the better PK teams in league. #1PK C

malhotra= one of the best face off man in hockey. big heavy body also able to play a strong responsible game... play 2nd wave of the PK

personally i think were set at C... with young depth in galchenyuk, bournival as well as prust (who can take a face off and play C as well) they all can chip in here and there in case of injury). Sure in a perfect world DD would be 6'3" and 200 lbs but he continues to defy the odds in his hockey career and i wouldn't in the least be surprised if he broke 70pts this season..... if paranteau is able to land in MTL with his skates firmly planted on the ice that is!!!

One major problem with the habs scoring woes over the years has been that plex's role as our best shutdown center/ #1 pk specialist has been employed from the #1/#2C spot.... its high time we got a #2 (Eller gets his shot) to be that guy and plex plays the 3rd line role in the proper spot in the line up (as possibly the best 3rd line C in the league!!!!!)

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Again, 1st/2nd/3rd/4th line mentality is dead in today's NHL.

If we set up the lines in Montreal based on even strength time on ice per game, the lines would look like this (last year, at least 30 games played):

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gionta

Eller - Desharnais - Gallagher

Galchenyuk - Briere - Bourque

Prust - Bournival - Moen

How would PP lines shake out?

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Gallagher

Galchenyuk - Plekanec - Briere

Bourque - Eller - Gionta

And SH?

Moen - Plekanec - White

Prust - Eller - Gionta

Pacioretty - Bournival

In other words:

- Plekanec is our most utilized forward. At center he plays the most ES minutes, he's our second line PP center and he's one of our heaviest used shorthanded skaters.

- We don't play our two most utilized forwards (Plekanec and Pacioretty) on the same line, ensuring our two most used forwards will never face one shutdown line.

- Gionta was far more heavily used than he should have been at his age and his removal from the lineup means there is definitely an opportunity for someone to move up. Nearly 18 minutes per game are getting replaced.

- Eller played far more than anyone seems to give him credit for. He's one of only six players to break 1,000 ES minutes on the team.

- Parenteau had a "bad year" in Colorado but still played nearly 15 minutes of ES per game in his 55 games. The season prior he was playing 16:13 ES TOI/G. The team may have an expectation for him to replace Gionta's minutes but nothing is promised.

How did things change for even strength TOI/G in the playoffs?

Plekanec - Gionta

Pacioretty - Desharnais

Eller - Gallagher

Galchenyuk, Bourque, Vanek

I didn't set it up as lines because it didn't fit as well. Now it looks like the team had two pairings they played heavily (Plekanec/Gionta, Pacioretty/Desharnais) and they played them hard with whatever wingers suited them. Vanek's minutes were less than Bourque and Galchenyuk in TOI/G. Gallagher didn't play with Eller so much as he was the third most used winger. What that shows is that the team didn't necessarily have four set wingers in the playoffs, though expectations at one point were for Vanek to be that fourth.

It still illustrates that Gionta was heavily used by Therrien and his minutes will need replacement. If you're curious, Parenteau played heavy minutes in the seven games for Colorado. Nearly 15 minutes at even strength per game with PP minutes as well.

Conclusion: Montreal uses Plekanec like he's a top center. It doesn't matter if you put two defensive minded forwards with him, he's still going to get the big minutes. It just means his linemates will get those big minutes as well. How Montreal sets the lines will be based on who they feel should play big minutes with Plekanec.

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Again, 1st/2nd/3rd/4th line mentality is dead in today's NHL.

If we set up the lines in Montreal based on even strength time on ice per game, the lines would look like this (last year, at least 30 games played):

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gionta

Eller - Desharnais - Gallagher

Galchenyuk - Briere - Bourque

Prust - Bournival - Moen

How would PP lines shake out?

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Gallagher

Galchenyuk - Plekanec - Briere

Bourque - Eller - Gionta

And SH?

Moen - Plekanec - White

Prust - Eller - Gionta

Pacioretty - Bournival

In other words:

- Plekanec is our most utilized forward. At center he plays the most ES minutes, he's our second line PP center and he's one of our heaviest used shorthanded skaters.

- We don't play our two most utilized forwards (Plekanec and Pacioretty) on the same line, ensuring our two most used forwards will never face one shutdown line.

- Gionta was far more heavily used than he should have been at his age and his removal from the lineup means there is definitely an opportunity for someone to move up. Nearly 18 minutes per game are getting replaced.

- Eller played far more than anyone seems to give him credit for. He's one of only six players to break 1,000 ES minutes on the team.

- Parenteau had a "bad year" in Colorado but still played nearly 15 minutes of ES per game in his 55 games. The season prior he was playing 16:13 ES TOI/G. The team may have an expectation for him to replace Gionta's minutes but nothing is promised.

How did things change for even strength TOI/G in the playoffs?

Plekanec - Gionta

Pacioretty - Desharnais

Eller - Gallagher

Galchenyuk, Bourque, Vanek

I didn't set it up as lines because it didn't fit as well. Now it looks like the team had two pairings they played heavily (Plekanec/Gionta, Pacioretty/Desharnais) and they played them hard with whatever wingers suited them. Vanek's minutes were less than Bourque and Galchenyuk in TOI/G. Gallagher didn't play with Eller so much as he was the third most used winger. What that shows is that the team didn't necessarily have four set wingers in the playoffs, though expectations at one point were for Vanek to be that fourth.

It still illustrates that Gionta was heavily used by Therrien and his minutes will need replacement. If you're curious, Parenteau played heavy minutes in the seven games for Colorado. Nearly 15 minutes at even strength per game with PP minutes as well.

Conclusion: Montreal uses Plekanec like he's a top center. It doesn't matter if you put two defensive minded forwards with him, he's still going to get the big minutes. It just means his linemates will get those big minutes as well. How Montreal sets the lines will be based on who they feel should play big minutes with Plekanec.

My conclusion: plex's heavy 5on5 minutes is most attributed to him continuously getting the nod to play against the opposition's best players (who usually play the most minutes on there team). it isn't plex's fault that the habs have been weak at C for years and he's been forced to play a duel role as a scoring/ shutdown #1 PK and PP guy. i don't understand.... we finally have depth in the position... we have a big kid (Eller) still only 25. At some point we have to go "ALL IN" with the kid and really see what we have. why not give him every possible avenue to succeed? to make him a great asset. have we really done that yet? sure we've been responsible with him and got him to buy in to a 2 way game but now we need to take the leash off and let the kid take chanches, make mistakes without wall papering to the bench or the stands..... or else just freakin trade him!!!

habs want to reach the next level..... this is how they need to line up

patch DD paranteau

galchenyuk eller gallagher

bourque plex weise

prust malholtra (moen)bournival***

sekac*

***moen gets the nod to show he has something left in the tank after the concussion

*sekac needs to earn his spot not just have it handed over at 22yrs old!

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My conclusion: plex's heavy 5on5 minutes is most attributed to him continuously getting the nod to play against the opposition's best players (who usually play the most minutes on there team). it isn't plex's fault that the habs have been weak at C for years and he's been forced to play a duel role as a scoring/ shutdown #1 PK and PP guy. i don't understand.... we finally have depth in the position... we have a big kid (Eller) still only 25. At some point we have to go "ALL IN" with the kid and really see what we have. why not give him every possible avenue to succeed? to make him a great asset. have we really done that yet? sure we've been responsible with him and got him to buy in to a 2 way game but now we need to take the leash off and let the kid take chanches, make mistakes without wall papering to the bench or the stands..... or else just freakin trade him!!!

habs want to reach the next level..... this is how they need to line up

patch DD paranteau

galchenyuk eller gallagher

bourque plex weise

prust malholtra (moen)bournival***

sekac*

***moen gets the nod to show he has something left in the tank after the concussion

*sekac needs to earn his spot not just have it handed over at 22yrs old!

Well, to me, the next level is more :

Winger at least as good as Pax - Galchenyuk - Gallagher

Pax - DD - Parenteau

Bourque - Plex or Eller - Weise/Sekac/Bournival/anyone

Plekanec or Eller + ____ have to bring a 1st line Winger to reach the next level, IMO.

Otherwise, the next level will be reached when Galchenyuk becomes a super player, and this will be at C, not on the W.

MAKE ROOM FOR GALCHENYUK AT C !!!!!!!!!!

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WANTING Eller to become awesome is not the same thing as his actually BEING awesome. When he earn a bigger role, he should get it. Not before.

I agree 100%. Eller was earning it. From first game until November 27, Eller didn't have a single game with under 15 minutes. Even when the Kid/EGG line was broken up against Minnesota, he still had Galchenyuk. Galchenyuk was still on his wing when we got into 2014. It was after that when they decided to put Galchenyuk with Plekanec.

What gets forgotten about the time between breaking up the Kid/EGG line and Eller is that the line broke up on November 19 (Gallagher moves to DD/Patches line). Prior to this was a game where Eller scored a goal against Columbus and logged over 20 minutes and the Islanders game where the Kid line took all three stars. Aside from those games, Eller was a big fat donut from October 29 to November 19. Aside from those games, Eller's +/- was a -6. Also, DD was already starting to pick up his game prior to the Wild game.

What happened was Eller had a Brian Savage type hot start but couldn't keep it up. He cooled down, cooled down and eventually was frozen. DD on the other hand started frozen, got warmer, got warmer, then got hot and stuck with it for the rest of the season. Eller didn't really start turning his game around until two games before the start of the playoffs.

I hate beating the drum on this but it always gets built up as some kind of betrayal to Eller when really he only lost Gallagher on his wing. It was never Therrien's fault. Heck Therrien was still trying to give him big minutes. Eller needs to show consistency. I will take an Eller that puts up say 40 points next season but does it in a consistent manner over an Eller that has a good half season then flatlines. We know he has it in him. It has nothing to do with linemates or increased minutes. Eller has to play like Eller can play. Otherwise he goes into the inconsistency bin with Bourque, Andrei Kostitsyn and Benoit Pouliot.

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All the Plekanec love is commendable guys.... but you compare younger players to him, in this stage of their careers, in what he excels at and that's hardly fair...

Lets compare his speed and puck skill to Galchenyuk... not close.

Let's compare his shot to Patcioretty's...not close.

Let's compare his "effort level" to Gallagher's, again not close.

Let's compare what he does in the playoffs, I know, he has the same PPG in the playoffs, blah, blah, blah...but what about last playoffs at -7, and he lead us to get shut out last game?

Plek's has a great, all round, consistant game, and is the best complete hockey player on the team, but you have to compare apples to apples.

Saying that Eller or Galchenyuk cannot take his place is a no brainer, they can't, but they may bring more to the team in another capacity, and be great players in their own right.

Not advocating trading Plek, I have before, but not as the team stands now, no way I trade him, he is indeed a centerpiece for us. But as good as he is, he's no Guy Carbonneau either.... however he is essential on this Habs team being a consistant winning team.

Although the Habs have no heir apparent in his role, it doesn't mean the team couldn't be improved overall by trading him, it of course depends on the return, and he isn't going to be the "one" that stands out individually, and leads us to the cup either.

Just to see fair comparisons would be refreshing.... I don't see Eller or Galchenyuk as better than Plek at what he does, there are few in the league better at what he does, and I don't want to see either of those guys replace what he does, I want them to be more about scoring, and being physical, and they are both on the way to being better than him at that physical side of the game already... and they have a lot to learn to be close in other areas, granted.

We need them all, but in their own roles...

I'd see what training camp brings for that other winger, and go from there, there is no pressing need to trade Thomas Plekanec and weaken the team up the middle, to improve the wing... his defensive skill cannot be replaced with a 20 goal scorer, they don't make too many Plekanecs that can do both like he does, and he is a life long Hab, and maybe deserves a little loyalty out of you that want him traded, like Markov received this season.

Redundant argument since the Habs can't really afford to trade him, and really aren't likely to trade him....

You could just as easily say that Guy Carbonneau was no Bob Gainey.

I think they would try him on wing before trading him. That's not inconceivable, Backes is moving to wing, and he's a top-5 Selke candidate.

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I agree 100%. Eller was earning it. From first game until November 27, Eller didn't have a single game with under 15 minutes. Even when the Kid/EGG line was broken up against Minnesota, he still had Galchenyuk. Galchenyuk was still on his wing when we got into 2014. It was after that when they decided to put Galchenyuk with Plekanec.

What gets forgotten about the time between breaking up the Kid/EGG line and Eller is that the line broke up on November 19 (Gallagher moves to DD/Patches line). Prior to this was a game where Eller scored a goal against Columbus and logged over 20 minutes and the Islanders game where the Kid line took all three stars. Aside from those games, Eller was a big fat donut from October 29 to November 19. Aside from those games, Eller's +/- was a -6. Also, DD was already starting to pick up his game prior to the Wild game.

What happened was Eller had a Brian Savage type hot start but couldn't keep it up. He cooled down, cooled down and eventually was frozen. DD on the other hand started frozen, got warmer, got warmer, then got hot and stuck with it for the rest of the season. Eller didn't really start turning his game around until two games before the start of the playoffs.

I hate beating the drum on this but it always gets built up as some kind of betrayal to Eller when really he only lost Gallagher on his wing. It was never Therrien's fault. Heck Therrien was still trying to give him big minutes. Eller needs to show consistency. I will take an Eller that puts up say 40 points next season but does it in a consistent manner over an Eller that has a good half season then flatlines. We know he has it in him. It has nothing to do with linemates or increased minutes. Eller has to play like Eller can play. Otherwise he goes into the inconsistency bin with Bourque, Andrei Kostitsyn and Benoit Pouliot.

Well said! :thumbs_up:

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Plekanec 676 games as a Hab, 176 goals, so avrage 21goals/year, but never a 30 goal scorer.

In 48 game season in 2012-13, he was on a 56point pace, for those who say he is fading and 20 goals again this year, on a bottom ten scoring team.

I just think so many fans undervalue him, or just seems that way to me.

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It's not that he is undervalued, but that Pleks has the most value on the trade market and he is approaching 33, which is when you generally see a big decline.

Bottom line is there is no way DD or Eller bring back a top line winger. Pleks can. In another year his value will probably drop further and right now there are a few teams with a lot of top end young players, but need a guy like Pleks more than we do. Those teams may be willing to pay a premium for pleks and give us another high scoring winger.

Plekanec 676 games as a Hab, 176 goals, so avrage 21goals/year, but never a 30 goal scorer.

In 48 game season in 2012-13, he was on a 56point pace, for those who say he is fading and 20 goals again this year, on a bottom ten scoring team.

I just think so many fans undervalue him, or just seems that way to me.

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