Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Rene Bourque is a great example of an unpredictable player getting a long term "money savings" deal and the team regretting it soon after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Riberio seems a goofball and always did, Latendress was a fat kid even when he came to first camp and Gainey told him to drop 15-20lbs. Bourque and Eller are not even comparable players. Kostitsyn was darn good and could be counted on for 20+ goals almost every year. If Komisarik had of stayed as Markov's partner, he might of had a good career? Not sure who Bulis was, but am sure are just as many examples of players that they should of signed long term. 3 week stretch like from opening day in Jan until April 2013. But I really don't care if give Eller short or long deal, just curious if will be >$3m/yr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalhabs Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Not sure who Bulis was, but am sure are just as many examples of players that they should of signed long term. http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=8368 From the "Golden days" of the early 2000s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I have no problem with a long-term deal for an obvious superstar like Subban. I understand why MB went the "bridge" route last time, but it's time to pony up. I disagree strongly that we should attempt a long-term deal for Eller. True, if he (finally!) blossoms, it's a great move. If he remains a Rene Bourquish enigma, then that becomes an even worse contract than (say) Gorges's. Imagine if we'd done the same with Bulis or Kostitsyn or Komisarek or Latendresse or Ribeiro. Eller seems to me to be almost an archetypical example of a shorter-term or "bridge" situation. The guy has yet to prove anything other than that he can look great for three-week stretches every now and then. with Ellers stats, I mean the whole 6 weeks that he actually showed up, 3 weeks in the fall 3 weeks in the playoffs, he should not be getting much of a raise. I would offer him, 1 year at 1.5 or 2 years at 1.75, or 4 years at 2 to 2.5 mill. Don't like it? well it has been nice knowing you. He has not done enough to warrant a raise in my opinion but knowing arbitration, he could get 2 years at 3 mill. per year. At that point we have decide if we want him at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Riberio seems a goofball and always did, Latendress was a fat kid even when he came to first camp and Gainey told him to drop 15-20lbs. Bourque and Eller are not even comparable players. Kostitsyn was darn good and could be counted on for 20+ goals almost every year. If Komisarik had of stayed as Markov's partner, he might of had a good career? Not sure who Bulis was, but am sure are just as many examples of players that they should of signed long term. 3 week stretch like from opening day in Jan until April 2013. But I really don't care if give Eller short or long deal, just curious if will be >$3m/yr. Which Kotitsy brother are you talking about? Sergei had talent no brains. Andre was a solid player (2nd or 3rd line) with no brains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 AK46 of course, who was clumsiest NHL player I ever saw. Was streaky, but still put up some OK goal totals. But agree and don't think he was Mensa material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 He deserved a better fate. AK-47 went from a 20 goal scorer to KHLer in three months after he was traded to Nashville. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted July 7, 2014 Author Share Posted July 7, 2014 He deserved a better fate. AK-47 went from a 20 goal scorer to KHLer in three months after he was traded to Nashville. I put the failure of AK46 on the Gainey regime. He saw another russian show up and play hard only when he felt like it, being coddled by Gainey. The veterans during the Gainey regime were pampered and I think Pleks is the only player who was successfully developed during that regime. Taking young players, developing them into professionals was a complete failure during the Gainey era. When you have as many young good prospects fizzle out with mixed success to failure, is an indictment of the player development of the organization. Lats was to Fat, Ribeiro was a douche (only player who I believe was truly a lost cause as a player and human being), AK46 was stupid and had no hockey sense, SK74 was brat, Higgins was full of himself and partied to hard, Komisarik was just being carried by Markov and over-rated, Hainsey didn't have any patience and was a lousy dman and Ryder was lazy and had nothing but a good wrist shot. It's a miracle that Price didn't bomb out in Montreal with the circus like atmosphere he went through. At some point you have to point to the GM and his coaching staff as the root cause for the failure of so many players with a lot of potential. None of these players were taught to be professionals. If you look at the successful franchises during the period, the Wings, NJ, they did an exampelory job developing professionals that bought into a team culture and values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I don't believe Eller should get a big raise. Nor do I think that he played like crap when he wasn't putting up points. He was skating hard, hitting and skating the puck out of the defensive zone. He just wasn't producing points. I hope he improves his consistency, and I think if anyone believes he can replace Plek next season, they are mistaken. This team lost Gio, Vanek, and Briere for Parenteau and Malhotra. Not sure how that will work out, but I do know that I don't want another top 6er and one of the ten best two way players in the game list this season. Eller is no replacement for Plekanec, and he is not a useless piece of crap either. Lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 guys there is a lot of 20/20 vision going on in here, at the time of the deal most people thought it was crazy to even consider signing subban for upwards of 5 million long term, he hadn't won a norris yet, was a healthy scratch a few times that season for his playing with fire type escapades. the bridge deal did exactly what it was supposed to do, give Subban 2 years to prove his true value, and he did just that with 2 great seasons in a row. Now as an organization we can't be scared to shell out superstar money for a superstar, because we now know for sure, that is what he is, but thats only thanks to the bridge contract. It is easy to say NOW that we could have got him at bargain price, but that was one hell of a gamble to make at the time. i'm expecting an 8 year deal in the ball park of 64 million, and based on what i've seen from him in the past 2 years, i'm perfectly fine with that. Well said, and I completely agree. 2 years ago, Subban was still a little rough around the edges. He needed those two years to refine his play. Now let's get this deal done. I'm expecting something in the neighborhood of 8 years and 64 to 68 million$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Andrei Kostitsyn was great when he was expected to be the skilled grinder. Kovalev was the sniper, he was the grinder. Plekanec would provide the pucks to either guy. Once Kovalev was gone, Kostitsyn now believed he could be Kovalev. He was trying to drive the puck between defenders and take shots from the dot. He failed miserably. When Montreal demoted him back to the third line in hopes he'd remember what worked best for him, it seemed to be working but he was unhappy. He went to Nashville where with Radulov he once again thought he was Mr. Superstar and got a cold shower of realization. He's doing alright in Russia. Top 3 scorer on his team. Nothing special. Same with Sergei. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Kostitsyn was totally useless for about 60 games per season - except for his reasonably reliable physical presence - and looked excellent the other 20. His problem was between his ears, and the fact that he went out on an all-night drinking binge the night before a playoff game pretty much tells us all we need to know about what we had there. Giving long-term deals to every young player that has potential is simply folly. Period. Too many of them don't pan out, and at the end of the day it doesn't matter why they don't pan out. If you've locked 'em up you're screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Actually for 2 years Post-Kovalev, AK46 had just about same offense and average years for him, so disagree that he failed miserably and he averaged 21goals-46pts/season overall as NHLer, not terrible (for a guy who likely couldn't walk and chew gum at same time and wasn't focused on winning). So more a 2nd line winger and nothing wrong with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Kostitsyn still knew how to score on a hot streak. It wasn't like he lost his hands but his scoring performances were overshadowed by generally apathetic play. He was incredibly easy to beat or get the puck off of. Of course he throws the occasional check so that's makes him excusable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Kostitsyn still knew how to score on a hot streak. It wasn't like he lost his hands but his scoring performances were overshadowed by generally apathetic play. He was incredibly easy to beat or get the puck off of. Of course he throws the occasional check so that's makes him excusable. describes Vanek, Kovalev, Cammalleri, Ovechkin, Kessel and common trait of many offensive NHLers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 describes Vanek, Kovalev, Cammalleri, Ovechkin, Kessel and common trait of many offensive NHLers. Vanek: 70 point player Kovalev: 84 points at 35 years old Cammalleri: one of the best playoff scorers in Canadiens history Ovechkin: one of the best players in the NHL Kessel: two time 80 point player Kostitsyn: Scored 26 goals once Big difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29habs3318 Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Give PK Subban what he wants and then some more. He gives his heart and soul to the Habs each and every night. He is a great player and a crowd pleaser on top of it all. I still remember him playing for the Canada`s junior team and flipping out when I learned that Montreal drafted him. The guy has done it all and more. Pay the man big time!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 AK46 was 2nd liner and got paid as such. You want to say a ,<$3m forward should put up equal offense as a $7-9m player? But, if look at $/point likely very similar or Kostitsyn is ahead in value? And point total means little as we all saw with Vanek, you want to pay him $7m/year when he will collect ton of points and win a few games, but on most nights he will be invisible, same as Ovechkin, Kovalev, etc etc. Ask the vast majority of HabFans if they wanted to re-sign Vanek, knowing full well he is good for 60-70points. And Cammalleri is just like Kessel and all is great when scoring but absolutely useless when not (which is most of regular season). Softer than butter and still yet to see a corner of any rink they ever played in. How many points did Cammalleri the Great score in semi-finals vs Flyers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 How many points did Cammalleri the Great score in semi-finals vs Flyers? He had a goal. His 13 goals was the most of any player in that playoffs and I believe he was two from the all-time Canadiens playoff goal scoring record in a post-season (Cournoyer). The entire team sucked against the Flyers, but sure let's focus on the guy that scored 12 goals in 14 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 He had a goal. His 13 goals was the most of any player in that playoffs and I believe he was two from the all-time Canadiens playoff goal scoring record in a post-season (Cournoyer). The entire team sucked against the Flyers, but sure let's focus on the guy that scored 12 goals in 14 games. So we can expect Bourque to get 40 goals based on one playoff run? Sweet, resign the playoff star to extension and big fat raise now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 The original argument was that it's a bad idea to sign young players to long-term deals based on "potential." Sure, you may end up scoring big by locking a guy up at a substantial underpay (which is the whole idea) - but the long list of "promising" youth that we would have regretted signing long-term had we done so is a standing counter-argument. Kostitsyn came up as one such example. Now, maybe some of you wish he was still around, being invisible 60 nights and year and getting drunk before playoff games, and that's fine; but there are plenty of other examples of guys we should be glad we don't still have on the payroll. If you want to understand he argument against locking up Eller for years, look to the Bulises and the Fatendresses and the Ribeiros, if not to AK-46. My own preference is to sign guys to fair contracts - neither trying to fleece them by taking advantage of them when they're still developing, nor getting fleeced by them, which is what occurs when you wait until they approach UFAdom and become ridiculously expensive, or when you throw unearned money at them on the theory that they'll be worth it some day. By that logic, it's time to lock up Subban but not Eller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Subban-8/7.6 Eller-3/2.25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Subban-8/7.6 Eller-3/2.25 sounds good but lets go 4/2.25 or 2.5 on Eller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGC21 Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I really don't see how MB can sign Subban for under $8M/year. Here's the comparables: Shea Weber - $7.85M Ryan Suter - $7.5M Kris Letang - $7.25M Drew Doughty - $7M Erik Karlsson - $6.5M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 Agreed. Subban will get at least $8m, more likely $8.5m. Keep in mind how long ago Karlsson signed and Weber and Sutwr are on longer front loaded deals. There is no way Subban signs for less than what Letang is getting, unless he is giving the Habs a break. His arbitration award will be over $7m. I really don't see how MB can sign Subban for under $8M/year. Here's the comparables: Shea Weber - $7.85M Ryan Suter - $7.5M Kris Letang - $7.25M Drew Doughty - $7M Erik Karlsson - $6.5M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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