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Question: Isn't Tinordi ready?


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For the past few months I have been wondering why Jarod Tinordi has spent so much time in Hamilton. I'm sure the injury from the fight slowed things down a bit but I thought in training camp he and Beaulieu were fairly even. I also thought that all reports pointed to Greg Pateryn having a bit of a down year. Yet Beaulieu has spent most of the year with us [for which I'm glad] and now this week Pateryn is the one called up when Gonchar was injured, ahead of Tinordi.

I thought Tinordi had developed into a strong stay at home defenceman who was a least equal to if not better than both Gilbert and Weaver. Yet he has remained in Hamilton up until now.

So where do you think Tinordi is in his development? Does he stay with us for the rest of the year and into the playoffs or is he here just until Emelin and Gonchar are healthy again? What do you think?

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Short stay.

AHLers beat him one on one, so he will need to be hidden a bit from top lines, but he does have a physical game which is lacking among the d.

Maybe he will get some PK time also?

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Short stay.

AHLers beat him one on one, so he will need to be hidden a bit from top lines, but he does have a physical game which is lacking among the d.

Maybe he will get some PK time also?

exact same scouting report could be said about emelin

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Tinordi may have some learning to do, but that stands to reason, he is actually a better skater than most give him credit for, as well as moving the puck pretty well.

I'm hoping he is like Beaulieu in the fact that he is better with the Habs than with the Dogs...

I agree with 30/31, same could be said about Gilbert as well as Emelin.

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For the past few months I have been wondering why Jarod Tinordi has spent so much time in Hamilton. I'm sure the injury from the fight slowed things down a bit but I thought in training camp he and Beaulieu were fairly even. I also thought that all reports pointed to Greg Pateryn having a bit of a down year. Yet Beaulieu has spent most of the year with us [for which I'm glad] and now this week Pateryn is the one called up when Gonchar was injured, ahead of Tinordi.

I thought Tinordi had developed into a strong stay at home defenceman who was a least equal to if not better than both Gilbert and Weaver. Yet he has remained in Hamilton up until now.

So where do you think Tinordi is in his development? Does he stay with us for the rest of the year and into the playoffs or is he here just until Emelin and Gonchar are healthy again? What do you think?

tinordi not up because MT likes Gilbert and Weaver ahead of him. That simple. Pateryn getting call ahead of him this time as dblair pointed out, likely a "cap thing" and/or "showcasing him".

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I want the kid to come up and make mistakes. That way he'll learn.

There's also a truth that some guys play better in the NHL than AHL. In the AHL it's a different speed, different pace and different responsibility. Same with NHL. Tinordi might be better suited for NHL than AHL similar to De La Rose.

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I want the kid to come up and make mistakes. That way he'll learn.

There's also a truth that some guys play better in the NHL than AHL. In the AHL it's a different speed, different pace and different responsibility. Same with NHL. Tinordi might be better suited for NHL than AHL similar to De La Rose.

Yes, ya know who else. Gallagher. His game was considerably better in the nhl than the ahl. From what I witnessed.

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I didn't see the FLA game, so I can't comment on his performance. But that one game really tells us nothing about his development one way or the other.

Contrary to wish-fulfillment delusions, Tinordi was thoroughly mediocre in his early-season stint with us, e.g., managing to clock in at -5 in 9 games on a pretty good team, so I am not in the least perplexed by the decision to send him down. The (implausible) idea that "he will be better in the NHL than in the AHL" is not borne out by his actual experience in the NHL so far. Gallagher, by contrast, arrived in the NHL fully formed and essentially forced his way onto the team via his no-brainer excellence. That's the exact opposite of what Tinordi has done. And this is unsurprising, since defencemen generally take longer to develop, and this is especially true of hulking defenders with some question marks around mobility.

Other than that, this thread will simply exhume the usual old arguments between people who want prospects thrown into the NHL irrespective of performance, informed by a religious belief that the NHL somehow turns young guys into all-stars, and people like me, who are perfectly happy to follow the Detroit model of allowing players - save for certain clear-cut exceptions like Sekac or Gallagher - to marinade in the AHL, learning the professional game and then being gradually eased into the big league via judicious management of ice-time and game situations. The Bergevin Habs are doing the best job with player development of any Habs' organization since Serge Savard's, so I trust them to make the right call most of the time.

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Habs are 7-2 this season with Tinordi in the lineup.

He did put up 2 assists on the board but went minus 5.

In fact, he was a minus player for 4 of those 9 games. 2 of them we still won, 1 was the Tampa Bay Massacre and the last one could be argued to be "his fault", the one against Vancouver.

We have the goalie to back up our rookies' mistakes.

In my eyes, he was getting better with the puck, clearing the zone, less nervous and more patient.

My opinion : Should have stayed in the top 6 and played EVERY game so far. We would not have lost that many more games than we did anyway with all the other veterans.

There is no way Gilbert brings that much to the team that we go from winners to losers by replacing him with Tinordi. NO WAY.

At the end of the season, what's better ? A much more improved Tinordi or a Gilbert ? I, for one, choose Tinordi.

I didn't see the FLA game, so I can't comment on his performance. But that one game really tells us nothing about his development one way or the other.

Contrary to wish-fulfillment delusions, Tinordi was thoroughly mediocre in his early-season stint with us, e.g., managing to clock in at -5 in 9 games on a pretty good team, so I am not in the least perplexed by the decision to send him down. The (implausible) idea that "he will be better in the NHL than in the AHL" is not borne out by his actual experience in the NHL so far. Gallagher, by contrast, arrived in the NHL fully formed and essentially forced his way onto the team via his no-brainer excellence. That's the exact opposite of what Tinordi has done. And this is unsurprising, since defencemen generally take longer to develop, and this is especially true of hulking defenders with some question marks around mobility.

Other than that, this thread will simply exhume the usual old arguments between people who want prospects thrown into the NHL irrespective of performance, informed by a religious belief that the NHL somehow turns young guys into all-stars, and people like me, who are perfectly happy to follow the Detroit model of allowing players - save for certain clear-cut exceptions like Sekac or Gallagher - to marinade in the AHL, learning the professional game and then being gradually eased into the big league via judicious management of ice-time and game situations. The Bergevin Habs are doing the best job with player development of any Habs' organization since Serge Savard's, so I trust them to make the right call most of the time.

Above is a quote of mine from Dec 29th.

Still believe every word of this post.

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Gallagher game exact same as junior in Vancouver. Tenacious Bulldog around net.

yes, but he is having more success with that "game" in the nhl than he did in the ahl. Watched him play for dogs and while he was easy to like, nobody thought he would go up and stick right away. Reason he did was because the habs did not have anybody who played that way. As PK said "if everybody gave the effort gally gives, we'd never lose a game"

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I didn't see the FLA game, so I can't comment on his performance. But that one game really tells us nothing about his development one way or the other.

Contrary to wish-fulfillment delusions, Tinordi was thoroughly mediocre in his early-season stint with us, e.g., managing to clock in at -5 in 9 games on a pretty good team, so I am not in the least perplexed by the decision to send him down. The (implausible) idea that "he will be better in the NHL than in the AHL" is not borne out by his actual experience in the NHL so far. Gallagher, by contrast, arrived in the NHL fully formed and essentially forced his way onto the team via his no-brainer excellence. That's the exact opposite of what Tinordi has done. And this is unsurprising, since defencemen generally take longer to develop, and this is especially true of hulking defenders with some question marks around mobility.

Other than that, this thread will simply exhume the usual old arguments between people who want prospects thrown into the NHL irrespective of performance, informed by a religious belief that the NHL somehow turns young guys into all-stars, and people like me, who are perfectly happy to follow the Detroit model of allowing players - save for certain clear-cut exceptions like Sekac or Gallagher - to marinade in the AHL, learning the professional game and then being gradually eased into the big league via judicious management of ice-time and game situations. The Bergevin Habs are doing the best job with player development of any Habs' organization since Serge Savard's, so I trust them to make the right call most of the time.

"tinordi was thoroughly mediocre in his 9 games" maybe so, gilbert and weaver would have to step up there game to become medicore.................thing is they will always be mediocre at best.......................NB was mediocre for more than "9 games" but sticking with him was the wise move.

I agree with those who say Tinordi should have been with the habs all season long. Not like the habs are that deep on the blue line. Subban and Markov play half the game. There was and is room to bring tinordi along. The five D

that inclube weaver, gilbert, gonchar, emelin, NB.

Better example of "Wishful delusion" Mrs. Gilbert as top six defenseman.

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Regardless of where one may think Tinordi's progress may or may not get to, I believe at least one of Tinordi, Beaulieu and Pateryn will have to be moved or lost to waivers next year. The prospect of a waiver draft because of expansion complicates the issue. I think it's time to pick your poison.

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Like I said: this thread immediately reverts to the same old arguments about player development.

As far as the specific "Gilbert" issue goes, though, I would say two things:

-it's not about Gilbert, it's about Tinordi. Throw a guy who - even by Joe's reckoning - was not playing well and arguably cost us at least one game (TB) into the deep end and gamble that he will figure it out on the fly, game after game, month after month. Well. That could work. Or it could go in the other direction: player gets overwhelmed, player loses confidence, player gets ruined, or else becomes a rehabilitation project or - most likely - gets traded because he "needs a change of scenery." Heck, even the mighty Carey Price had trouble with this "throw 'em in the deep end" model of development, suffering considerable NHL growing pains, pains that could well have destroyed the career of a less sterling talent. I don't understand the rush to put Tinordi through the meat-grinder (especially in a city that has a longstanding habit of scapegoating and demonizing struggling players).

-but there's another issue too, which is how many rookies you want to work into the blueline at the same time. As a general rule, the more you're trying to break in, the harder it will be for the team to win. I know many people wanted Beaulieu made a regular last season, but right or wrong that's not what was done. Nate was clearly more "ready" than Tin Man, and the Habs wisely decided to break him in this season. That tends to leave Tinordi either riding the NHL pine or getting experience in the AHL. An extra half-season in the NHL is hardly going to do the kid any damage (unless, of course, he gets the sh*t kicked out of him in a fight - which could just as easily happen in the NHL, and in itself tells us something about his upside as an "intimidator" in the Show).

Also, finally...it's not just play on the ice. it's also comportment, character, how one relates to teammates, contributes to the overall team dynamic, etc.. I suspect this is more of an issue with Beaulieu than Tinordi, but Beaulieu himself has said that he's learned a lot this year about the difference between confidence and arrogance, and so on. Sometimes keeping a player down is necessary, not strictly to improve his on-ice game, but to instil an understanding of what is expected from a Montreal Canadien. No harm in that either. The team is winning; we have the luxury of insisting on high standards from our youth, an approach that will yield benefits for years to come.

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Like I said: this thread immediately reverts to the same old arguments about player development.

As far as the specific "Gilbert" issue goes, though, I would say two things:

-it's not about Gilbert, it's about Tinordi. Throw a guy who - even by Joe's reckoning - was not playing well and arguably cost us at least one game (TB) into the deep end and gamble that he will figure it out on the fly, game after game, month after month. Well. That could work. Or it could go in the other direction: player gets overwhelmed, player loses confidence, player gets ruined, or else becomes a rehabilitation project or - most likely - gets traded because he "needs a change of scenery." Heck, even the mighty Carey Price had trouble with this "throw 'em in the deep end" model of development, suffering considerable NHL growing pains, pains that could well have destroyed the career of a less sterling talent. I don't understand the rush to put Tinordi through the meat-grinder (especially in a city that has a longstanding habit of scapegoating and demonizing struggling players).

-but there's another issue too, which is how many rookies you want to work into the blueline at the same time. As a general rule, the more you're trying to break in, the harder it will be for the team to win. I know many people wanted Beaulieu made a regular last season, but right or wrong that's not what was done. Nate was clearly more "ready" than Tin Man, and the Habs wisely decided to break him in this season. That tends to leave Tinordi either riding the NHL pine or getting experience in the AHL. An extra half-season in the NHL is hardly going to do the kid any damage (unless, of course, he gets the sh*t kicked out of him in a fight - which could just as easily happen in the NHL, and in itself tells us something about his upside as an "intimidator" in the Show).

Also, finally...it's not just play on the ice. it's also comportment, character, how one relates to teammates, contributes to the overall team dynamic, etc.. I suspect this is more of an issue with Beaulieu than Tinordi, but Beaulieu himself has said that he's learned a lot this year about the difference between confidence and arrogance, and so on. Sometimes keeping a player down is necessary, not strictly to improve his on-ice game, but to instil an understanding of what is expected from a Montreal Canadien. No harm in that either. The team is winning; we have the luxury of insisting on high standards from our youth, an approach that will yield benefits for years to come.

ok. Now bring Tinordi up and leave him there.

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It should also be pointed out the roles that are being fought for.

LEFT DEFENCE

Andrei Markov

Nathan Beaulieu

Alexei Emelin

Jarred Tinordi

Bryan Allen

RIGHT DEFENCE

P.K. Subban

Sergei Gonchar

Tom Gilbert

Mike Weaver

Greg Pateryn

Prior to Gonchar coming in, the RD was Subban/Gilbert/Weaver. If Beaulieu or Tinordi were right handed they would have had a much easier shot at a roster spot. A big part of this was Emelin moving back to LD. Gonchar coming in meant the rotation for RD's final spot would go to Gilbert and Weaver.

LD last year was Markov and Gorges in the top two spots. Trading Gorges meant Emelin could move back to LD. He hasn't been successful at it and that made room for Nathan Beaulieu to step up. With Emelin out that gives Tinordi room to step into the spot. When Emelin returns it means Tinordi is bumped down (unless he claims the spot).

In other words, Beaulieu and Tinordi were fighting for the same third LD spot while Pateryn was pushed to the back due to Weaver and Gilbert being signed. Open spots are being created because of where the players play, not just some big list of depth.

Next year if we don't re-sign Weaver and Gonchar we're looking at:

LD: Markov, Beaulieu, Emelin, Tinordi

RD: Subban, Gilbert, Pateryn

Unless Emelin moves back to RD or Tinordi turns into an RD, there's still a hole for the RD while the LD is stacked. It has less to do with Tinordi as a defenceman and everything to do with Tinordi being a left side defenceman.

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I didn't see the FLA game, so I can't comment on his performance. But that one game really tells us nothing about his development one way or the other.

Contrary to wish-fulfillment delusions, Tinordi was thoroughly mediocre in his early-season stint with us, e.g., managing to clock in at -5 in 9 games on a pretty good team, so I am not in the least perplexed by the decision to send him down. The (implausible) idea that "he will be better in the NHL than in the AHL" is not borne out by his actual experience in the NHL so far. Gallagher, by contrast, arrived in the NHL fully formed and essentially forced his way onto the team via his no-brainer excellence. That's the exact opposite of what Tinordi has done. And this is unsurprising, since defencemen generally take longer to develop, and this is especially true of hulking defenders with some question marks around mobility.

Other than that, this thread will simply exhume the usual old arguments between people who want prospects thrown into the NHL irrespective of performance, informed by a religious belief that the NHL somehow turns young guys into all-stars, and people like me, who are perfectly happy to follow the Detroit model of allowing players - save for certain clear-cut exceptions like Sekac or Gallagher - to marinade in the AHL, learning the professional game and then being gradually eased into the big league via judicious management of ice-time and game situations. The Bergevin Habs are doing the best job with player development of any Habs' organization since Serge Savard's, so I trust them to make the right call most of the time.

I merely said I thought he had played a fine game last night, more noticeable in a good way than a bad way...an observation from watching every minute of last night's game

You are starting the argument between the "should be up" and the "should learn in the minors" camps this time... I would argue the NHL is a young man's game now, but I don't want to argue.

No matter how many times you tell us this, you didn't watch, so no need to feed us that opinion again really in this case.

He was a force, and we have worse defensemen on the team...

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I merely said I thought he had played a fine game last night, more noticeable in a good way than a bad way... you are starting the argument between the "should be up" and the should learn in the minors" camps this time...

No matter how many times you tell us this, you didn't watch, so no need to feed us that opinion again really in this case.

He was a force, and we have worse defensemen on the team...

Well now. The thread title asks whether Tinordi is "ready" (which naturally leads to questions about whether he was ready before and should have been here all along, etc.).

That is a completely different question from whether he played one good game.

Only a moron would proclaim a guy "ready" on that basis.

So perhaps the thread title should be changed to "Didn't Tinordi have a great game last night?" On that question, I have no opinion, but I am glad to hear he played so well.

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I merely said I thought he had played a fine game last night, more noticeable in a good way than a bad way...an observation from watching every minute of last night's game

You are starting the argument between the "should be up" and the "should learn in the minors" camps this time... I would argue the NHL is a young man's game now, but I don't want to argue.

No matter how many times you tell us this, you didn't watch, so no need to feed us that opinion again really in this case.

He was a force, and we have worse defensemen on the team...

key "we have worse defensemen on the team" YEP

"its a young mans league" YEP

Nobody thought NB was ready in November, but given time he took weavers job no problem (as i predicted) :halm:

Tinordi would do the same to Gilbert. (he should thump her in practice) :rofl:

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Well now. The thread title asks whether Tinordi is "ready" (which naturally leads to questions about whether he was ready before and should have been here all along, etc.).

That is a completely different question from whether he played one good game.

Only a moron would proclaim a guy "ready" on that basis.

So perhaps the thread title should be changed to "Didn't Tinordi have a great game last night?" On that question, I have no opinion, but I am glad to hear he played so well.

Question: Isn't Tinordi ready?

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His game last night, while not free of mistakes, was considerably more dynamic than I expected and markedly better than I've seen from him before. It was the little things that made the biggest differences. In particular I felt his decisions and reactions were at a speed necessary to succeed at the NHL level. Now we have to see if that was adrenaline-assisted, or whether this call-up is *the one,* so to speak. If he continues as he did, it's a strong base point for a developing, full-time NHLer.

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