Do we have serious structual cracks to our foundation? Options

[REV-G]

Over this past week I've heard and read some observations and criticisms, that if they're true, will seriously handicap us and not allow us to be in a position to move forward and improve over the long term. there seems to be 3 key areas that may need serious attention and change if we hope to move into a contending position.

1. Our drafting and scouting department. This morning in the Gazette Jack Todd reported that an unnamed source told him the Canadiens were one of the few teams that do little regarding scouting European players. The result is we have handled poorly the Europeans we have and overall we have a very poor track record in this area. Also the very low number of impact players we have drafted over the past 5 or 6 years has and will seriously hurt us. We need to make some major changes.

2. Long term planning in regards to contracts and cap space. We have three important players to sign this summer and it's going to be very interesting to see how we do it. We have a few very bad contracts that may be very difficult to get out of.

3. Our coach's system. I have to admit I haven't paid a lot ot attention to this recently but earlier this year it seemed our players were running around, other teams were getting 40+ shopts per game and our goalies had to steal a game for us to get a win.

In fairness the recent road trip turned out pretty good. But if these are legitimate problems, we're going to need some major changes.

[Colin]

Over this past week I've heard and read some observations and criticisms, that if they're true, will seriously handicap us and not allow us to be in a position to move forward and improve over the long term. there seems to be 3 key areas that may need serious attention and change if we hope to move into a contending position.

1. Our drafting and scouting department. This morning in the Gazette Jack Todd reported that an unnamed source told him the Canadiens were one of the few teams that do little regarding scouting European players. The result is we have handled poorly the Europeans we have and overall we have a very poor track record in this area. Also the very low number of impact players we have drafted over the past 5 or 6 years has and will seriously hurt us. We need to make some major changes.

2. Long term planning in regards to contracts and cap space. We have three important players to sign this summer and it's going to be very interesting to see how we do it. We have a few very bad contracts that may be very difficult to get out of.

3. Our coach's system. I have to admit I haven't paid a lot ot attention to this recently but earlier this year it seemed our players were running around, other teams were getting 40+ shopts per game and our goalies had to steal a game for us to get a win.

In fairness the recent road trip turned out pretty good. But if these are legitimate problems, we're going to need some major changes.

Good questions.

1. Jack Todd. In some respects, that's all that need be said about your point one. However, the reality is that he's *shock* potentially on to something here. On the other hand, other than the top three guys in any given draft, it's largely a crapshoot and perhaps the player quality is more a result of development *after* the draft than before it. With respect to Euro's, I'll admit that your point has piqued my interest and I'd be interested to look into that situation in more depth.

2. The 'doom and gloom' aspect in a lot of fan's eyes. I disagree - to a degree. Yes, we've spent to the cap and it will look interesting come this summer, but with a little creativity, I think any team can get past cap issues these days. Personally, I think the cap issue is overblown.

3. At this point in the season, the system *must* be question if looked at objectively. Yes, the last two games in particular saw the Canadiens playing much better team defense (under 30 shots per game in regulation, which is great), but the question is whether or not that's a blip or a trend. Time will tell. If it's just a blip, then it's a question that must be looked at more closely this off-season.

Do we have cracks in the foundation? Sure. Like any other team. Far less, though, than quite a few other teams. Hell, I think the Leafs are built on a peat bog.

[The Chicoutimi C...]

Good questions.

1. Jack Todd. In some respects, that's all that need be said about your point one. However, the reality is that he's *shock* potentially on to something here. On the other hand, other than the top three guys in any given draft, it's largely a crapshoot and perhaps the player quality is more a result of development *after* the draft than before it. With respect to Euro's, I'll admit that your point has piqued my interest and I'd be interested to look into that situation in more depth.

2. The 'doom and gloom' aspect in a lot of fan's eyes. I disagree - to a degree. Yes, we've spent to the cap and it will look interesting come this summer, but with a little creativity, I think any team can get past cap issues these days. Personally, I think the cap issue is overblown.

3. At this point in the season, the system *must* be question if looked at objectively. Yes, the last two games in particular saw the Canadiens playing much better team defense (under 30 shots per game in regulation, which is great), but the question is whether or not that's a blip or a trend. Time will tell. If it's just a blip, then it's a question that must be looked at more closely this off-season.

Do we have cracks in the foundation? Sure. Like any other team. Far less, though, than quite a few other teams. Hell, I think the Leafs are built on a peat bog.

Quite a good response. I agree with all three of your points, Colin. On #1, I'd be more worried about this if the Gainey years were marked by a dearth of young talent in general and young Euro-talent in particular. But in fact we drafted both Kostitsyns, Perezhogin, Streit, Emelin, Valetenko, Weber, Halak, Plekanec, and several other notable Euro-talents over that span. Every name on this list has been identified by scouts and 'experts' as a very promising pick and some have actually materialized into near-elite players. So whatever Todd is hearing, I don't see that the results thus far have borne that out. This sounds like a phantom problem to me - typical Montreal media, manufacturing sh*t where there isn't any.

I fully endorse your view on #2. We should at least SEE WHAT HAPPENS before prophesying doom and gloom on the cap front. Other teams manage their away around the cap. So can we.

#3 is the only one on this list that seems to be a really pressing concern. But JM is entitled to at least another half-season before we can declare him a flop, as is discussed in another thread.

I honestly believe that if we can manage the cap, our foundation is actually pretty strong for the next 4-5 years. Should we be so fortunate as to have:

A. one young defenceman emerge as a top-4 guy (hi, PK!) and one forward emerge as a top-6 guy (hi, Pacioretty);
B. continued progress from either Kostitsyn, and from Pouliot, and from a couple of other young guys (O'Byrne, Pyatt, etc.);
C. no return to mediocrity for Pleks;
D. continued progress from our goalies
E. tolerably adroit replacement of inevitable losses such as Hamrlik
F. tolerable health from Markov

we will contend within 2-3 years. That's a lot of 'ifs' but then again, none of these seem like ridiculous improbabilities. Indeed, A, B, C, and D are all things that we can reasonably expect. So the foundation is fairly solid in my estimation.

This post has been edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber: Mar 8 2010, 05:39 PM

[saskhab]

Nothing's really changed in Montreal. Want proof? A friend sent this to me:

Record with Markov: 18-9-3
Record without Markov: 14-20-3

Regardless, there was a lot less European scouting in the late 00's than the early 00's. Although I do remember Timmins saying he spent more time in Sweden last year than he ever had, but he didn't pick any Swedish players. He picked two Finns (Nattinen, Simila), one Russian (Avtsyn), and signed two Swedish UFA's (Johannsen, Engqvist). Johannsen was a bust, and we'll se Engqvist in Hamilton next year. Simila was likely a bad pick, but he was the last overall. If the criticism is a long way of saying Timmins spends too much time proportionally scouting Junior A leagues for collegiate prospects and less time in European pro/junior leagues, then it's probably valid. Not sure how many scouts the HAbs have in Europe, I know there's a fairly well respected Russian one but not sure about Sweden/Finland or central Europe (Czech, Slovakia, Germany, Switzerland). In any case, more scouts should be the goal: it's a way to get an advantage on the poorer teams in a cap world. Another way is to pay more for AHL staff... IMO Boucher should be paid what an entry level NHL coach makes to be sure a team doesn't try and snap him up right away.

The cap problem isn't too burdensome, IMO. A bit of creativity will need to occur, but good development in Hamilton should allow us to move out some more expensive players in the next year or two.

The 'system' is just shorthand for coaching. There's been improved special teams under Martin/Pearn, but the 5 on 5 play has been a tough go. Part of it is injuries and part of it is all the new players. It needs to improve. Let's see how it does as we have a relatively healthy stretch here (all D are healthy, which is huge for 5 on 5).

[Chips]

..... Do we have cracks in the foundation? Sure. Like any other team. Far less, though, than quite a few other teams. Hell, I think the Leafs are built on a peat bog.

Peat BOG! love it! needed a good laugh tonight..

Peat BOG!

HA!

[ehjay]

(...)
I honestly believe that if we can manage the cap, our foundation is actually pretty strong for the next 4-5 years. Should we be so fortunate as to have:

A. one young defenceman emerge as a top-4 guy (hi, PK!) and one forward emerge as a top-6 guy (hi, Pacioretty);
B. continued progress from either Kostitsyn, and from Pouliot, and from a couple of other young guys (O'Byrne, Pyatt, etc.);
C. no return to mediocrity for Pleks;
D. continued progress from our goalies
E. tolerably adroit replacement of inevitable losses such as Hamrlik
F. tolerable health from Markov

we will contend within 2-3 years. That's a lot of 'ifs' but then again, none of these seem like ridiculous improbabilities. Indeed, A, B, C, and D are all things that we can reasonably expect. So the foundation is fairly solid in my estimation.

(IMO) I think you are bang on there my fellow Habs Fan, Mr. Cucumber (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I would just like to add if point A is 'taken care of' then that would possibly by defacto take care of request E all in one swoop.
Now I don't want to jinx anything so I will shut the: ache ee double hockey sticks up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

This post has been edited by ehjay: Mar 10 2010, 09:12 AM

[johnnyhasbeen]

Is the foundation of the team not it's AHL affiliate? If that is the case we have a very solid foundation, just go check on how the 'dogs are doing. The coaching staff is all still relatively new, at both levels, so that is a nonproven issue as far as the foundation of a team is concerned and we are under new management. I really have avoided this thread, but it bugs me every time I see it. I believe that the foundation may have had many cracks in it a few years back and we have been seeing the results of those issues with the failure to graduate many players, although if you look at our lineup now, just what percentage have we drafted or traded for and then developed? that would be a major factor in this discussion. the main point I see in your discussion is with the scouts and I feel we have drafted decently over the past few seasons. Maybe we missed on one or two players such as Lucic but it is not an exact science. Personally I am stirred but not shaken by our development of youth and feel very good about where we are now in that department.

On a side note. Isn't the team Bob built looking good since the Olympics? If we pull off a miracle in the playoffs, does he get credit?

[bar]

I've said it all season, that this team cannot be measured til you have a full roster, and when Cammy comes back and kicks AKs butt and that line gets going, I'd be glad to go up against ANY team in the league.

[redondo]

On a side note. Isn't the team Bob built looking good since the Olympics? If we pull off a miracle in the playoffs, does he get credit?

Bob did what was in his power to purge the old core and leave a healthier one in place, though between last year's gutless collapse and the declining vets it was an inevitability. So he should definitely get the credit for what this year's team does.

On the flip side, come the offseason, if we can't keep guys like Plex or one of the goalies because Bob spent so liberally on his new core (and guys like Hal Gill), he should get some of the blame as well.

[Chris]

Those guys who are high paid as you say Gill is has done the job exactly how they were suppose to do.

Gill has done the job he has been brought in to do.
Spacek has been solid, i expected a little more offensively.
Mara has been injured all year.
Cammi may have reached 40 goals without injuries
Gomez when plying with top 6 talent has been excellent
Gionta probably would have had 30+ goals without injuries

So the players who were brought in have made the team a playoff contender with all the injuries and changes to personel and coaching staffs.

Pleks has had a great year, he proced himself off the team, BG actually gave him more money then he deserved based on last years performence. The poor move will be movign him for no return, he isn't coming back.

It's the leftovers, Markov, Gorges excluded that have been underachievers. Darche, Pyatt have stepped up.

[johnnyhasbeen]

Bob did what was in his power to purge the old core and leave a healthier one in place, though between last year's gutless collapse and the declining vets it was an inevitability. So he should definitely get the credit for what this year's team does.

On the flip side, come the offseason, if we can't keep guys like Plex or one of the goalies because Bob spent so liberally on his new core (and guys like Hal Gill), he should get some of the blame as well.

I agree fully with that. I think we learned though that to get UFAs to sign in Montreal we have to overpay abit. Pesky taxes! AT least he managed to get some to sign here. It was long ago it seemed they all were signing anywhere but here. Great change in itself.

Maybe we should say our foundation was starting to show signs of deterioration and the ground work has started to repair the damage. I am waiting anxiously for the emergance of PK Subban as our Calder winner. I second the motion! I saw Orr play, and he reminds me so much of him, although I was just a kid, I watched and was in awe of Bobby. He looks to me to have that potential. I think I will be a very quiet hockey fan for quite awhile if he is another bust.

This post has been edited by johnnyhasbeen: Mar 10 2010, 09:47 PM

[Prime Minister K...]

I agree fully with that. I think we learned though that to get UFAs to sign in Montreal we have to overpay abit. Pesky taxes! AT least he managed to get some to sign here. It was long ago it seemed they all were signing anywhere but here. Great change in itself.

Maybe we should say our foundation was starting to show signs of deterioration and the ground work has started to repair the damage. I am waiting anxiously for the emergance of PK Subban as our Calder winner. I second the motion! I saw Orr play, and he reminds me so much of him, although I was just a kid, I watched and was in awe of Bobby. He looks to me to have that potential. I think I will be a very quiet hockey fan for quite awhile if he is another bust.

Subban has the skill but he also has the attitude. He has swagger, passion, determination, energy and a real hunger. His hockey attitude seems to be like Ovechkin's. This is a real positive sign.

[Easy Ryder]

Hold the horses there, Subban in the same attitude as Ovechkin ?? Reminds of Bobby freakin Orr??

No superstar ever had the attitude of Ovehkin , ever. I don't think any grinder ever had Ovechkin attitude.


If you want to find a look alike contest with Bobby Orr you'd have to consider maybe Doughty in ten years but even for
Doughty it's a huge task, come on P.K is playing AHL very good right now, that is where we are with him.

1966-67 Calder Memorial Trophy 1967-68 James Norris Trophy 1968-69 James Norris Trophy
1969-70 Art Ross Trophy 1969-70 Hart Memorial Trophy 1969-70 Conn Smythe
1969-70 James Norris Trophy 1970-71 Hart Memorial Trophy 1970-71 James Norris Trophy
1971-72 Hart Memorial Trophy 1971-72 Conn Smythe Trophy 1971-72 James Norris Trophy
1972-73 James Norris Trophy 1973-74 James Norris Trophy 1974-75 Art Ross Trophy
1974-75 James Norris Trophy 1974-75 Lester B. Pearson

Subban can be compared with Subban and must play like Subban, with risk comes mistakes and he'll make
plenty of them. He will be a bust if the expectations are too high and coaches/fan loose patience with him.
He may finally be forced to calm his temper and then he loose his edge.

People just compared Weber and Streit and what happened with him? Even his big shot is not a concern anymore.

[Prime Minister K...]

Hold the horses there, Subban in the same attitude as Ovechkin ?? Reminds of Bobby freakin Orr??

No superstar ever had the attitude of Ovehkin , ever. I don't think any grinder ever had Ovechkin attitude.


If you want to find a look alike contest with Bobby Orr you'd have to consider maybe Doughty in ten years but even for
Doughty it's a huge task, come on P.K is playing AHL very good right now, that is where we are with him.

1966-67 Calder Memorial Trophy 1967-68 James Norris Trophy 1968-69 James Norris Trophy
1969-70 Art Ross Trophy 1969-70 Hart Memorial Trophy 1969-70 Conn Smythe
1969-70 James Norris Trophy 1970-71 Hart Memorial Trophy 1970-71 James Norris Trophy
1971-72 Hart Memorial Trophy 1971-72 Conn Smythe Trophy 1971-72 James Norris Trophy
1972-73 James Norris Trophy 1973-74 James Norris Trophy 1974-75 Art Ross Trophy
1974-75 James Norris Trophy 1974-75 Lester B. Pearson

Subban can be compared with Subban and must play like Subban, with risk comes mistakes and he'll make
plenty of them. He will be a bust if the expectations are too high and coaches/fan loose patience with him.
He may finally be forced to calm his temper and then he loose his edge.

People just compared Weber and Streit and what happened with him? Even his big shot is not a concern anymore.

I'm not comparing style or skill or anything like that. I'm comparing their passion.

[The Chicoutimi C...]

Those guys who are high paid as you say Gill is has done the job exactly how they were suppose to do.

Gill has done the job he has been brought in to do.
Spacek has been solid, i expected a little more offensively.
Mara has been injured all year.
Cammi may have reached 40 goals without injuries
Gomez when plying with top 6 talent has been excellent
Gionta probably would have had 30+ goals without injuries

So the players who were brought in have made the team a playoff contender with all the injuries and changes to personel and coaching staffs.

Pleks has had a great year, he proced himself off the team, BG actually gave him more money then he deserved based on last years performence. The poor move will be movign him for no return, he isn't coming back.

It's the leftovers, Markov, Gorges excluded that have been underachievers. Darche, Pyatt have stepped up.

Spacek has been a disappointment, and that's a terrible contract no matter how you slice it, but you do need to factor in that he's playing on the wrong side, a huuuuge challenge for any defenceman.

But you're right, Bob's big UFA signings, including Gill (who I just plain like) have delivered. They are all slightly overpaid, but as johnnyhasbeen points out, this is an unavoidable reality in Montreal: we have to tag on, like, an extra $500 000 to every contract to compensate for the onerous tax regime. The real criticism of Gainey has to be, not that he overpays for the UFAs he signs, but that he was forced to reconstruct the team via free agency in the first place, because Rebuild 1.0 was such a debacle (due, it seems, to bad player development). Nonetheless, I like the moxy and personality of the team he built; whether it was ultimately a mistake will hinge on whether we can manage cap challenges going forward. As Mao said of the French Revolution, it's too soon to render an ultimate verdict on the Rebuild 2.0 that Gainey started. Ask me again in 2-3 years, which is this team's 'window.'

This post has been edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber: Mar 11 2010, 11:03 AM

[johnnyhasbeen]

EasyRider, I do compare what I see to Orr, mainly in the way he skates and carries the puck, plus his playmaking sense. I know it is early and he has alot of achievements to make to live up to what I am seeing, but it is his potential I am talking about. Orr was great, but that does not by any sense mean someone better won't come along. It is only a matter of time.
As for Ovie, his drive and desire are great, but is he better than The Rocket? I think not, but time will tell. Let me know when he has a fist full of rings...

As for PK, I am just excited because I haven't seen anyone like that in many years. Doughty doesn't remind me of Orr in any sense at all, having watched Orr's entire career in my youth, He can't skate half as well and will never win a scoring race or even be in one. PK skates in that class and has the scoring sense. Only time will tell if he can elevate that to the NHL level. Orr and Gretzky were great, better will come along. It is only a matter of time.

[Easy Ryder]

EasyRider, I do compare what I see to Orr, mainly in the way he skates and carries the puck, plus his playmaking sense. I know it is early and he has alot of achievements to make to live up to what I am seeing, but it is his potential I am talking about. Orr was great, but that does not by any sense mean someone better won't come along. It is only a matter of time.
As for Ovie, his drive and desire are great, but is he better than The Rocket? I think not, but time will tell. Let me know when he has a fist full of rings...

As for PK, I am just excited because I haven't seen anyone like that in many years. Doughty doesn't remind me of Orr in any sense at all, having watched Orr's entire career in my youth, He can't skate half as well and will never win a scoring race or even be in one. PK skates in that class and has the scoring sense. Only time will tell if he can elevate that to the NHL level. Orr and Gretzky were great, better will come along. It is only a matter of time.

It's ok when individuals get carried away with passion, but in Montreal it becomes mass hysteria as soon as they see a new savior.

This is why i think we have cracks in the foundation when high potential prospects don't live to people expectations, ask Price about it....

[bar]

EasyRider, I do compare what I see to Orr, mainly in the way he skates and carries the puck, plus his playmaking sense. I know it is early and he has alot of achievements to make to live up to what I am seeing, but it is his potential I am talking about. Orr was great, but that does not by any sense mean someone better won't come along. It is only a matter of time.
As for Ovie, his drive and desire are great, but is he better than The Rocket? I think not, but time will tell. Let me know when he has a fist full of rings...

As for PK, I am just excited because I haven't seen anyone like that in many years. Doughty doesn't remind me of Orr in any sense at all, having watched Orr's entire career in my youth, He can't skate half as well and will never win a scoring race or even be in one. PK skates in that class and has the scoring sense. Only time will tell if he can elevate that to the NHL level. Orr and Gretzky were great, better will come along. It is only a matter of time.

Just as an aside to Johnnys post here, I think someone posted this once before, but check out this clip of PKs skating ability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKDbnm_IdYY