Enforcer - Required or not?

[dlbalr]

This was posed by FinHab in another thread but I think it merits its own discussion once again.

Do Habs need a real enforcer? We have Moen and Gill who can step up, but no one else. I think we really need a guy who can protect our smurfs, you know. Sorry about my english, hope you understant what I wrote.

Your thoughts?

[bar]

I haven't voted yet, but I'd say no to the question without any further clarification. If the question was: Do the habs need someone who can fight, YET still take a regular shift on the fourth line, then yes, they do, Carcillo, Tootoo, that sort of player. IF the question is do the habs need Colton Orr, the boogyman or Ratinas Ivanis, then no, they do not. I am not convinced that in the new NHL they do anything to deter cheap shots, unless you play the 'goon' on the same line as your stars.

In the days past of the no instigator maybe you have a case, I would love to have a player like Tootoo or Cacillo, etc, BUT I think we have a player like that sitting in the minors in White.

The management has not seen fit to go in the rough and tumble way of hockey, and I'm fine with that. I prefer a great goal to a good fight, speed and skill to cheap shots and body checks.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Goons are essentially useless in today's NHL. Thanks to the worst rule still on the books - the instigator penalty - they can generally only fight each other. Plus there are all these other 'codes' about not pounding on guys smaller than you, etc.. It's a sideshow.

In fact the instigator rule has corrupted the entire point of fighting. The purpose of hockey fights is to allow players to protect themselves where the refereeing fails. If someone cheap-shots your star player and there is no call, what can be done? A: you pound the snot out of the cheap-shot artist. But now there are major disincentives to this sort of self-policing by players. Players have to *agree* to a fight. It is no coincidence that we are now in an era of 'no respect' where players get routinely carved up like Thanksgiving turkeys.

Not only that, but the hockey code has been distorted. Look at the Penguins, systematically targeting Subban for abuse (both legal and illegal) because he dared to try to lay a clean hip-check on Crosby. Crosby?! For God's sake, he is a robust and chippy semi-power forward built like a brick outhouse. He can take the punishment just as he dishes it out. The 'code' is meant to prevent bruisers from targeting mroe fragile players (e.g., Gretzky, Koivu). But nowadays a clean check on any notable player generates a fury of reprisals, usually expressed as cheap shots rather than outright fights.

Where does this leave us? The best you can do is hope for, as bar says, is a tough cookie who can also take a regular shift. But there will be no adequate self-policing in the NHL until the league abolishes this inane instigator penalty. So we just have to hope our guys are tough enough to take the punishment and that guys like Subban, Moen, Pyatt and Lapierre can mete out enough of it to inflict a price on the other team.

[hab29RETIRED]

Goons are essentially useless in today's NHL. Thanks to the worst rule still on the books - the instigator penalty - they can generally only fight each other. Plus there are all these other 'codes' about not pounding on guys smaller than you, etc.. It's a sideshow.

In fact the instigator rule has corrupted the entire point of fighting. The purpose of hockey fights is to allow players to protect themselves where the refereeing fails. If someone cheap-shots your star player and there is no call, what can be done? A: you pound the snot out of the cheap-shot artist. But now there are major disincentives to this sort of self-policing by players. Players have to *agree* to a fight. It is no coincidence that we are now in an era of 'no respect' where players get routinely carved up like Thanksgiving turkeys.

Not only that, but the hockey code has been distorted. Look at the Penguins, systematically targeting Subban for abuse (both legal and illegal) because he dared to try to lay a clean hip-check on Crosby. Crosby?! For God's sake, he is a robust and chippy semi-power forward built like a brick outhouse. He can take the punishment just as he dishes it out. The 'code' is meant to prevent bruisers from targeting mroe fragile players (e.g., Gretzky, Koivu). But nowadays a clean check on any notable player generates a fury of reprisals, usually expressed as cheap shots rather than outright fights.

Where does this leave us? The best you can do is hope for, as bar says, is a tough cookie who can also take a regular shift. But there will be no adequate self-policing in the NHL until the league abolishes this inane instigator penalty. So we just have to hope our guys are tough enough to take the punishment and that guys like Subban, Moen, Pyatt and Lapierre can mete out enough of it to inflict a price on the other team.

My position, is that hockey is a good enough game without fighting, but even if you are going to have it and even if the instigator rule wasn't in place, i still think goons are useless. It's one thing to have a guy like Neely who can fight and play hockey, but like i said when Gainey signed the useless piece of crap BGL, goons are a waste of cap space and a roster position. They add no value. YOu can say that **SOME*** of them are character guys, but I'd rather fill a roster spot with a character guy that can actually play the game then a worthless peice of crap like BGL.

The whole issue of the shit disturbers and cheap shot artists can easily be solved if the nhl had more strict punishments (i.e. 10-20 game suspensions) for stick infractions hits from behind, blatant knee on knee hits and have suspensions for poor sportsmanship type actions by idiots like Sean Avery. The NHL is the only professional sports league - unless you count circus acts like WWF that allow half the shit that goes on in a hockey game.

The NFL is based on contact, yet fights do not break out, simply because they ARE NOT ALLOWED. The rare instance that a fight breaks out, there are repercussions to be faced. And i don't buy the arguements by the Don CHerry's of the world that the speed of the game necessitates having fighting as a healthy outlet.

The other issue you pointed out, i completely agree with. It shouldn't matter if your name is Crosby, Ovechkin or Lapierre. The rules should be the same for every player. If Crosby is hit with a clean hit and chirps to the refs, instead of calling a penalty everytime somone touches him, the refs should be calling a unsportsmanlike conduct penalty on Crosby for his whining.

Edited October 11, 2010 by hab29RETIRED

[l.moustakas]

The whole issue of the shit disturbers and cheap shot artists can easily be solved if the nhl had more strict punishments (i.e. 10-20 game suspensions) for stick infractions hits from behind, blatant knee on knee hits and have suspensions for poor sportsmanship type actions by idiots like Sean Avery. The NHL is the only professional sports league - unless you count circus acts like WWF that allow half the shit that goes on in a hockey game.

It's funny. Any debate on fighting quickly turns into a discussion about the league's application of the rules. And rightly so. There is no rhyme or reason behind the distribution of supplementary discipline. More often than not, it seems that the term of the suspension has been picked out of a hat as opposed to being determined by the rules. Things would be simpler if the league would establish clear punishment guidelines for certain infractions. I understand that there are nuances and the game moves at a blazingly fast speed, but imagine how much easier it would be if the higher-ups at least established some sort of norm. For example, for a hit to the head, automatic suspension between 10 and 15 games, at the discretion of the disciplinarian. Even in this circumstance, there is an element of human decision making, but at least it would stop looking like Maggie the Macaque picked the number.

As for fighting, as entertaining as it can be, it prevents the league from properly entering into the 21st century. Beyond the fact that it is a tad barbaric and that it will eventually lead to very serious injury, or worse a player's demise, it also hampers the game's image in the United States. The NHL can usher out as many well-thought out ad campaigns as it wants, but there are some core elements that must be changed in order to modernize the sport, namely the removal of fighting and stricter, more consistent disciplinary measures. (The other thing I would change is the idiotic W-L-OTL system. It should simply be win or lose. It's not a pee-wee league and we need not reward effort or participation, just wins. As for the notion of giving three points for a win and having a W-OTW-OTL-L system, that wouldn't be confusing at all. But I digress, I am severely off topic.)

In as much as fighting and the presence of an enforcer relates to the Canadiens, when the team has 6 forwards worthy of playing in the top 6, then perhaps management could maybe consider worrying about acquiring a player who will play three minutes a night. Until then, it can wait.

P.S Clearly, I was in a bit of ranting mood. Thanks for reading...

Edited October 11, 2010 by l.moustakas

[PMAC]

If the question was: Do the habs need someone who can fight, YET still take a regular shift on the fourth line, then yes, they do, Carcillo, Tootoo, that sort of player. IF the question is do the habs need Colton Orr, the boogyman or Ratinas Ivanis, then no, they do not. I am not convinced that in the new NHL they do anything to deter cheap shots, unless you play the 'goon' on the same line as your stars.

Exactly what I would argue. Having an enforcer without the skills to play hockey is an extravagance we can't afford. I think the last really effective goon we had was Chris Nilan. He could fight, but he could also skate, check and sometimes score.

[BCHabnut]

I would take Chris Neil on my team any day. Big slow goons will be gone in 5 years. They werre on teh way out until Boogey made it popular again. lol

[Sledneck]

A super goon is not needed, but having another good tough player or two would definently help the team. A couple more players on Moens level would be perfect, the habs just don't have the depth for a goon to sit on the bench.

[Chips]

we don't need anymore goon's. our game is skill, although we can use more size on the top six, to hold our ground. needless to say the goon's have leagues they can plan in, but the NHL is not that kinda league anymore...

GO HABS GO!

[saskhab]

If Ryan White comes as advertised, I'll be very happy. A scrappy player who hits, skates, fights, pots 8-12 goals, and moves the puck from the defensive zone to the offensive zone more often than the other way around.

That said, they're complete negatives in today's NHL. What does it say about them when teams don't play them in the playoffs? They sell jerseys, bring fans out of their seats for 30-60 seconds, and they're respected for what they do by their teammates. But they're at best a placebo. There is no evidence that having a designated heavyweight benefits their teammates. The opposite is likely true: they encourage violence and put their teammates at risk as a result. They unnecessarily increase the emotion of games, leading to bigger hits for and against.

We had an enforcer for a year and a half and our injured list was always full of key players. The year before Laraque came, we had a near injury free year. A lot of coincidence, obviously, but it shows there's no deterant to it.

[ForumGhost]

Last time I checked, we still have a goon on the payroll.

[FinHab]

A super goon is not needed, but having another good tough player or two would definently help the team. A couple more players on Moens level would be perfect, the habs just don't have the depth for a goon to sit on the bench.

Agreed!!! I really like Moen, and one or two this kinda players would be nice. Mr. Forum Ghost, who?

I think fighting really belongs to hockey, those who says it is old fashioned and barbaric, and will cause a injuries, don't know a thing, checking causes injuries, high sticking also, so what, it's hockey!!! Injuries are part of the game, so is entertaining, yes? Besides, players get kinda big money for that risk, don't you agree?

Edited October 12, 2010 by FinHab

[johnnyhasbeen]

I am now, probably for the first time of my life, believing we don't need one. Laps proved it, just get them so pissed they drop the gloves, turn and skate away laughing on the PP! May be a good team ethic? Hmmm. Even with Knuckles back in the lineup, teams would avoid him except for other enforcers, totally wipes out their advantage. So no, at this point we don't need one. What we have have is enough.

[BlueKross]

I am now, probably for the first time of my life, believing we don't need one. Laps proved it, just get them so pissed they drop the gloves, turn and skate away laughing on the PP! May be a good team ethic? Hmmm. Even with Knuckles back in the lineup, teams would avoid him except for other enforcers, totally wipes out their advantage. So no, at this point we don't need one. What we have have is enough.

It wouldn't matter if we had one or not, Martin wouldn't use him right. I am waiting for the Ran

gers to roll into town. Besides that, I haven't been impressed this year with the games I have seen because of the LACK of hitting. It seems to me that we are playing some form of RED ROVER. When we don't hit hard enough to spawn a fight, what do you need a fighter for?

[nikohab]

My position, is that hockey is a good enough game without fighting, but even if you are going to have it and even if the instigator rule wasn't in place, i still think goons are useless. It's one thing to have a guy like Neely who can fight and play hockey, but like i said when Gainey signed the useless piece of crap BGL, goons are a waste of cap space and a roster position. They add no value. YOu can say that **SOME*** of them are character guys, but I'd rather fill a roster spot with a character guy that can actually play the game then a worthless peice of crap like BGL.

The whole issue of the shit disturbers and cheap shot artists can easily be solved if the nhl had more strict punishments (i.e. 10-20 game suspensions) for stick infractions hits from behind, blatant knee on knee hits and have suspensions for poor sportsmanship type actions by idiots like Sean Avery. The NHL is the only professional sports league - unless you count circus acts like WWF that allow half the shit that goes on in a hockey game.

The NFL is based on contact, yet fights do not break out, simply because they ARE NOT ALLOWED. The rare instance that a fight breaks out, there are repercussions to be faced. And i don't buy the arguements by the Don CHerry's of the world that the speed of the game necessitates having fighting as a healthy outlet.

The other issue you pointed out, i completely agree with. It shouldn't matter if your name is Crosby, Ovechkin or Lapierre. The rules should be the same for every player. If Crosby is hit with a clean hit and chirps to the refs, instead of calling a penalty everytime somone touches him, the refs should be calling a unsportsmanlike conduct penalty on Crosby for his whining.

Enjoyed reading your post. looking at BGL performing on Stars On Ice yesteday evening made me sick. This guy is a big sissy and should be wearing a skirt when he figure skates all over the ice. By far the worst move thatBob Gainey ever made in his career.

[BCHabnut]

Agreed!!! I really like Moen, and one or two this kinda players would be nice. Mr. Forum Ghost, who?

I think fighting really belongs to hockey, those who says it is old fashioned and barbaric, and will cause a injuries, don't know a thing, checking causes injuries, high sticking also, so what, it's hockey!!! Injuries are part of the game, so is entertaining, yes? Besides, players get kinda big money for that risk, don't you agree?

I for one love a good hockey fight. I love it. I also think it has a place, sans instegator rule. I just dont want a goon. Give me Neil, Lucic, Asham, someone that can chuck but still play.

[BlueKross]

I for one love a good hockey fight. I love it. I also think it has a place, sans instegator rule. I just dont want a goon. Give me Neil, Lucic, Asham, someone that can chuck but still play.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate a good set-to. I don't think their is a climate for it in Montreal under present management.

[saskhab]

Hey, I watch and enjoy the fights, too. There's just no evidence it helps a team, that's all I'm saying. I wouldn't ever tell my team to not fight... but I wouldn't add a goon to a team, either. I like players that are aggressive and physical... and if they need to drop the gloves every once in a while that's fine with me. Just as long as they're good at the rest of the game.

Before NHL expansion and the WHA, there were no players who just fought in the NHL. The occasional callup from the AHL might be brought in for a particularly intense game, but all fighting was between real NHL players... including the stars, eventual Hall of Famers. The fighting sideshow element developed when the talent thinned out badly. The talent is no longer thin... we can easily have 30 teams of NHL players and no designated goons on any of them.

I actually loved Souray for his fighting and aggressive play before he ever figured out his slap shot. Rivet was appreciated by me for his willingness to drop 'em and defend Koivu. Those are the types of players I'm referring to.

[Habsfan]

I've always enjoyed a good fight, but i don't think the Habs need an enforcer. Maybe the Habs could use some extra grit and size(especially up front) but I don't think we need a Derek Boogard or Raitis Ivanans. As long as EVERYONE sticks up for one another, we should be good!

[FinHab]

I am now, probably for the first time of my life, believing we don't need one. Laps proved it, just get them so pissed they drop the gloves, turn and skate away laughing on the PP! May be a good team ethic? Hmmm. Even with Knuckles back in the lineup, teams would avoid him except for other enforcers, totally wipes out their advantage. So no, at this point we don't need one. What we have have is enough.

Hmm, Laps, as much as I love that pest, that's not the way... Not a good way... Shame on you Laps...

[bar]

Haha...you do not get bonus goals or points in the standings by adhering to the 'code'. I'm glad he's on the habs and not some other team.

[Habsfan84]

We should be able to get by with what we have. Gill, Moen and O'Byrne should all be able to handle their own. They can be there if a player takes another cheap shot at one of our players or the time seems right. We dont need someone who goes out looking for fights. We play a game based on speed and skill. A goon would slow us down. The NHL is not built for fighters anymore and the Habs will do fine without one.

[BlueKross]

We should be able to get by with what we have. Gill, Moen and O'Byrne should all be able to handle their own. They can be there if a player takes another cheap shot at one of our players or the time seems right. We dont need someone who goes out looking for fights. We play a game based on speed and skill. A goon would slow us down. The NHL is not built for fighters anymore and the Habs will do fine without one.

If the question were, if I was building a team would I have a super heavy weight. The answer is YES. They aren't expensive and there is room on a 23 man roster. Does montreal need. NO. Two separate questions.

[Doktor Kosmos]

I voted no. In my personal opinion, the use of goons is a fallacy. If a player takes a shot at your star player, does your goon go out and bash his face in? No, he goes out and bashed the face of the other team's goon.

If goons were doing what people say they do, Ovechkin wouldn't continue to make dirty plays.