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Trevor Timmins' dominance


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#1 Commandant

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 03:18 PM

Saw this at HF

"With Dumont dressing in his first NHL game, Trevor Timmins and his scouting staff from 2003 to 2009 have selected 55 players and after last night 25 have appeared in at least one NHL game to date."

Thats unbelievable... 25/55 picks making the NHL over a 6 year stretch, along with a number of undrafted free agents, and the potential to hit 30 with guys like Kristo, Quailer, Bennett, Nattinen, Valentenko, Fortier, and Conboy.

Gotta keep this guy.
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#2 bbp

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:02 PM

Is there any chance he is leaving?
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#3 Machine of Loving Grace

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:37 PM

Is there any chance he is leaving?


Supposedly he has interest in becoming a GM someday.
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#4 Commandant

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:47 PM

New GM will have the option to keep him or bring in his own guys according to Molson. No changes will be made right now though.
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#5 JCPetit

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:47 PM

He is certainly not part of the problem -- more part of the solution.
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#6 revvvrob

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:51 PM

why can't Timmins be Habs GM? no French?
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#7 Machine of Loving Grace

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:56 PM

why can't Timmins be Habs GM? no French?


I think he has interest in becoming a GM now you'll hear about it.

Timmins is still a pretty young guy. He might still enjoy being a scout or may have a team he's specifically interested in a GM job with. That all said, if he inquires and there's a better client for GM, I'd give him the Assistant GM position.
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#8 JMMR

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:20 PM

He has to stay.
GIVE him big $ take care of him.
He is a tremendous asset.
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#9 Trizzak

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:28 PM

why can't Timmins be Habs GM? no French?

He butchers the language every time he steps up to the podium during the draft.
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#10 JMMR

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:46 PM

He butchers the language every time he steps up to the podium during the draft.


What if he is just trolling the french?
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#11 hurley169

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 06:57 PM

Montreal is pretty good at drafting considering how little they spend on amateur scouts. Most times Timmins and Co. have to watch video on players because they dont have the man power to physically go and watch games. Thats kind of embarrassing when Montreal is one of the richest teams in the league. I just hope the new GM puts a massive impetus on hiring amateur scouts and less on video tapes.
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#12 BlueKross

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:19 PM

New GM will have the option to keep him or bring in his own guys according to Molson. No changes will be made right now though.

Yeah, you would have to be daft to change the head scout this close to the draft. You might want to change the spec. or priorties in what you are looking for in the draft; but I think you would be hard pressed to find somebody at this stage to know more what's out there than Timmins. I think it would be a mistake to move him, even after draft, unless he is moving up.
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#13 Commandant

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 09:00 PM

Montreal is pretty good at drafting considering how little they spend on amateur scouts. Most times Timmins and Co. have to watch video on players because they dont have the man power to physically go and watch games. Thats kind of embarrassing when Montreal is one of the richest teams in the league. I just hope the new GM puts a massive impetus on hiring amateur scouts and less on video tapes.


Not true at all.... video scouting is being added as an additional resource for these guys, not as a replacement for amateur scouts. It is quite simply impossible to have a scout at every game and video scouting is an additional resource that helps. There was an entire article about it in the 2012 Hockey News future watch and Video Scouting is now a tool that all 30 NHL Teams are using.

Video scouting is the wave of the future. Instead of having old school hand written scouting notes on a player, its now all digitized and all available at the push of a button. When you've got a player like Galchenyuk who hasn't played all season, you can grab your tapes and look again at what he looked like at 16 instead of just having written notes. You can compare Galchenyuk and Grigorenko side by side and back to back which makes ranking the two of them easier... rather than looking at the notes of one scout in Ontario and the notes of a second separate guy in Quebec as the only comparison between the two.

The Habs and all other NHL teams using video scouting are using it as a way to augment their regular scouts. So they can review tapes and review notes even when they are on a plane, or on a train, or in the office. During the day when no live games are being played. This doesn't mean they've stopped going to rinks, or that these videos are better than having a scout in the arena, just that its another add on to do things.
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#14 sakiqc

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 01:41 PM

I agree with 99% of your posts Commandant but I have to side with hurley on this one. I don't know the quality of those junior games tapes. Let's just say they were NHL-quality. I just imagine myself watching RDS and scouting a single player. First of all, the camera is following the puck and misses most of what my players does to position himself in neutral zone, backchecking and his comportment without the puck. I am pretty sure you can better evaluate a player by watching the game and seeing the whole ice and benches. Secondly, I HOPE that the head scout will move to see Grigorenko, Galchenyukali and any other prospects highly touted by the team scouts. I agree it's important to have the same eyes comparing prospects. That should be the job of the head scout. Videos can help scouts see more prospects. But I'm sure it should not replace their job of watching the prospects in person. It allows them to see more players and identify the ones to watch more closely.

There is A LOT of information available. What is important is to have the ability to analyse and make decision. Filter the information and make strategic decisions. Have the ability to interpret and make accurate evaluation of the information available. Videos = information. Scouts=analysis and decisions. Because more information is available to all teams, we need more scouts, ie, more analysts to dissect those information and make it to best use for the team.
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#15 Commandant

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 03:08 PM

I agree with 99% of your posts Commandant but I have to side with hurley on this one. I don't know the quality of those junior games tapes. Let's just say they were NHL-quality. I just imagine myself watching RDS and scouting a single player. First of all, the camera is following the puck and misses most of what my players does to position himself in neutral zone, backchecking and his comportment without the puck. I am pretty sure you can better evaluate a player by watching the game and seeing the whole ice and benches. Secondly, I HOPE that the head scout will move to see Grigorenko, Galchenyukali and any other prospects highly touted by the team scouts. I agree it's important to have the same eyes comparing prospects. That should be the job of the head scout. Videos can help scouts see more prospects. But I'm sure it should not replace their job of watching the prospects in person. It allows them to see more players and identify the ones to watch more closely.

There is A LOT of information available. What is important is to have the ability to analyse and make decision. Filter the information and make strategic decisions. Have the ability to interpret and make accurate evaluation of the information available. Videos = information. Scouts=analysis and decisions. Because more information is available to all teams, we need more scouts, ie, more analysts to dissect those information and make it to best use for the team.


I think you missed the point of my post here. The videos DO NOT replace the scout being in the rink. We've seen Timmins travelling all over the globe. In the last month he's been spotted at Sarnia games, at Quebec Remparts games, and in Leksands Sweden viewing Forsberg. The fact that the Habs added video scouting was not to mean they'd have less scouts at actual games, but was something to be used in conjunction with actually attending games. I agree that actually being in the rink is best, and you can't replace that experience, but that was never what video scouting was intended to do, and thats not the way NHL teams are using it. If you get a chance take a look at the article.

The Habs (and most NHL teams) aren't using video as a replacement for live scouts, but as a compliment to it.
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#16 Habsfan

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:14 PM

He butchers the language every time he steps up to the podium during the draft.


That doesnT' matter. The fact that he makes an effort is all that matters.

He has to stay.
GIVE him big $ take care of him.
He is a tremendous asset.


Agreed. Timmins needs to stay.
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#17 hurley169

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:30 AM

What I'm trying to get at is that Montreal spends so little on their scouting staff compared to other teams and that their scouts have to rely solely on video scouting because they dont have the resources to send a physical scout to games. A team such as Montreal with all their money and resources should have the most scouts and the best scouts then any one in the NHL. Its clear we have a decent draft record considering all the players we have placed into the NHL. Imagine how good we could be if we poured a ton of resources into drafting! Who knows, maybe we could become a dominant team in the NHL again!
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#18 Commandant

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:35 AM

What I'm trying to get at is that Montreal spends so little on their scouting staff compared to other teams and that their scouts have to rely solely on video scouting because they dont have the resources to send a physical scout to games. A team such as Montreal with all their money and resources should have the most scouts and the best scouts then any one in the NHL. Its clear we have a decent draft record considering all the players we have placed into the NHL. Imagine how good we could be if we poured a ton of resources into drafting! Who knows, maybe we could become a dominant team in the NHL again!


How have we spent less than other teams?  We've stolen some of the best scouts in the league... how do you think this happens?  Why do you think Frank Jay left Ottawa to come to Montreal?  Why do you think Ryan Jankowski left the Isles to come to Montreal?  Why do you think we got Larry Carriere out of Washington?  We haven't drafted many prospects from Sweden, so what did we do in 2010?  We hired Christer Rockstrom away from the Rangers to be a Euro scout, the guy who found Henrik Lundqvist, Carl Hagelin, and Artem Anisimov.  A few years ago when they revamped the scouting department we targetted top scouts from other teams and hired them.  How?  Clearly by offering more money than they were getting from their previous teams.  I don't think there is any reason to believe our scouting budget is lower than other teams.  Not with the success we have had, and with the names involved and the fact we've lured them away from jobs they've had in other organizations.  It seems to me the organizational scouting philosophy has been to bring in quality scouts and steal the best in the business... and to go with this quality over quantity approach.
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#19 hurley169

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:41 PM

Leafs vs Canadiens scouting staffs

List of Montreals amateur scouts: (GOHABS.COM)
Trevor Timmins Posted Image Director of Player Recruitment and Development
Frank Jay Posted Image Amateur Scout Serge Boisvert Posted Image Amateur Scout Ryan Jankowski Posted Image Amateur Scout Michel Boucher Posted Image Amateur scout - Quebec Mike McCann http://www.gohabs.co...s/dashpixel.gif Amateur scout - Ontario Elmer Benning http://www.gohabs.co...s/dashpixel.gif Amateur Scout - Western Canada William A. Berglund http://www.gohabs.co...s/dashpixel.gif Amateur Scout - Eastern U.S. Pat Westrum http://www.gohabs.co...s/dashpixel.gif Amateur Scout - Western U.S. Hannu Laine http://www.gohabs.co...s/dashpixel.gif Amateur Scout - Finland Christer Rockstrom http://www.gohabs.co...s/dashpixel.gif Scout (Europe)

List of Toronto's Amateur scouting staff: (Leafs4life.net)
Dave Morrison - Director of Amateur Scouting Mike Palmateer - Amateur Scout George Armstrong - Amateur Scout John Lilley - Amateur Scout Garth Malarchuk - Amateur Scout Alan Power - Amateur Scout Gary Harker - Amateur Scout Scott Carter - Amateur Scout Pierre Rioux - Amateur Scout Roy Stasiuk - Amateur Scout John McMorrow - Amateur Scout Darryl Stanley - Amateur Scout Bud Stefanski - Amateur Scout Dave Starman - Amateur Scout Joe Gibbs - European Scout Thommie Bergman - European Scout Jari Gronstrand - European Scout Peter Ihnacak European Scout Nikolai Ladygin - European Scout

The Canadiens - 11 Staff members
The Leafs - 19 Staff members
Red Wings - 14 Staff members

All I'm saying is a team with our resources should have more scouts then anyone. It's one advantage in a salary cap world that we should exploit so we can get the best players possible.

http://leafs4life.ne...eaf-management/
http://www.gohabs.com/staff.htm
http://redwings.nhl....ge.htm?id=44061
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#20 Commandant

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:20 PM

Is it worth it to have more scouts if they aren't quality scouts?

You have shown that you are willing to steal other organizations top guys, to me thats more valuable than just having any old scout.

Habs have 11 listed and Detroit has 14, thats pretty close to the same amount.... Your counting both pro and amateur scouts in Detroit so lets do the same here. Firstly your count is off, there are 12 guys listed under the heading of "scouts". Secondly lets also remember that not everyone is listed in that category of 12. Trevor Timmins isn't listed under "scouts", he's up at the top of the page as a department head of player procurement and development... so that makes 13. Larry Carriere makes 14. We know that Perry Pearn and Jacques Martin are both scouting for the organization and not listed on that site, so thats 16 guys who we know about. So Montreal is not exactly working with less of a staff... they just aren't listing everybody on the web site.

Leafs have 19.

Look at the amount of quality draft picks though.... Detroit's drafting is highly overrated.  Yes in the 90s they found stars, but what have they really done since the Zetterberg/Datsyuk drafts that are now over 12 years ago.  Their picks aren't panning out.

As for the Leafs... Kadri is a top 10 pick who still can't make the team.  Luke Schenn is a walking disaster of a draft pick, he just isn't very good, overhyped and overrated.  They put a ton of stock in Colbourne when they traded for him, 3 pts in his last 25 AHL games, and with his age is fastly approaching bust territory.  The only guys of value they have gotten via the draft (Frattin, Kulemin, Gunnarson) were all drafted by JFJ's regime and not Burke's.  He can hire all the scouts he wants, doesn't mean shit if they suck.

I'd much rather spend our budget on Quality over Quantity.  Lure the best scouts away from other organizations, pay them well and let them do their jobs.  Its working out very well for the team.  http://www.theprovin...9829/story.html

What we need now is a GM who isn't going to give up on our prospects at the first sign of struggles, only to see them blossom elsewhere.
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#21 DON

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:15 PM

Is it worth it to have more scouts if they aren't quality scouts?

You have shown that you are willing to steal other organizations top guys, to me thats more valuable than just having any old scout.

Habs have 11 listed and Detroit has 14, thats pretty close to the same amount.... Your counting both pro and amateur scouts in Detroit so lets do the same here. Firstly your count is off, there are 12 guys listed under the heading of "scouts". Secondly lets also remember that not everyone is listed in that category of 12. Trevor Timmins isn't listed under "scouts", he's up at the top of the page as a department head of player procurement and development... so that makes 13. Larry Carriere makes 14. We know that Perry Pearn and Jacques Martin are both scouting for the organization and not listed on that site, so thats 16 guys who we know about. So Montreal is not exactly working with less of a staff... they just aren't listing everybody on the web site.

Leafs have 19.

Look at the amount of quality draft picks though.... Detroit's drafting is highly overrated. Yes in the 90s they found stars, but what have they really done since the Zetterberg/Datsyuk drafts that are now over 12 years ago. Their picks aren't panning out.

As for the Leafs... Kadri is a top 10 pick who still can't make the team. Luke Schenn is a walking disaster of a draft pick, he just isn't very good, overhyped and overrated. They put a ton of stock in Colbourne when they traded for him, 3 pts in his last 25 AHL games, and with his age is fastly approaching bust territory. The only guys of value they have gotten via the draft (Frattin, Kulemin, Gunnarson) were all drafted by JFJ's regime and not Burke's. He can hire all the scouts he wants, doesn't mean shit if they suck.

I'd much rather spend our budget on Quality over Quantity. Lure the best scouts away from other organizations, pay them well and let them do their jobs. Its working out very well for the team. http://www.theprovin...9829/story.html

What we need now is a GM who isn't going to give up on our prospects at the first sign of struggles, only to see them blossom elsewhere.

Seems a common stance that Habs trade away talent too soon, but i cant think of any at all that i would lose sleep over and likely on par for most NHL teams, McDonaugh is 1 but i dont think he was ever given up on, just a major screw up by Bob.
However many scouts or how they scout for the Habs, they are doing well and if something aint broke, dont......
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#22 Machine of Loving Grace

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:39 PM

Luke Schenn is Luke Richardson.
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#23 JMMR

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:54 AM

Luke Schenn is Luke Richardson.


I think Schenn would be happy with that career. 1400 games played is pretty great feat.
I actually like Schenn and think when the Leafs trade him it will be a big mistake.
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#24 Machine of Loving Grace

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:57 AM

I think Schenn would be happy with that career. 1400 games played is pretty great feat.
I actually like Schenn and think when the Leafs trade him it will be a big mistake.


Well, the rumour of Schenn for Van Riemsdyk would have been a win for the Leafs.

I like Schenn too. He's pretty much Mike Komisarek. Also, Luke Richardson isn't really a criticism. It's more about the fact the Leafs thought he'd become Chris Pronger.
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#25 JMMR

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:58 AM

Well, the rumour of Schenn for Van Riemsdyk would have been a win for the Leafs.

I like Schenn too. He's pretty much Mike Komisarek. Also, Luke Richardson isn't really a criticism. It's more about the fact the Leafs thought he'd become Chris Pronger.

Yes Pronger is a once in generation defenseman.
I hope Tinordi can be 1/4 Pronger.
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