38 replies to this topic

[dlbalr]

I know the lockout is a bit of a sore spot so let's not discuss that.  Instead, let's talk about another area that was a sore spot for most - Pierre Gauthier.  As part of an upcoming article on HW, our writers will be talking about what one single trade or signing we'd undo if we had the choice.  I'll extend the same question to you guys, which trade or signing would you undo given the chance?

 

For reference purposes, a listing of Gauthier's moves can be found here.

 

Once again, we may use this for an article to be paired up with the comments from our writers.

[Commandant]

The worst trade Gauthier made in terms of the value he got back for what was given up is the Sergei Kostitsyn deal.

 

The one I'd undo though, is the Cammalleri trade.

[Trizzak]

Although I didn't mind it all that much at the time, the S. Kostitsyn trade is probably the largest gap in talent from Gauthier's moves. The Gainey/Gauthier combined inability to get good value out of their 'problem children' did no favours to the depth chart or standings.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

The worst trade Gauthier made in terms of the value he got back for what was given up is the Sergei Kostitsyn deal.

 

The one I'd undo though, is the Cammalleri trade.

 

Yeah, would undo Cammalleri in a second. 

 

His best signing was Cole by far.  Best trade I'd probably go with getting Bournival. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Most people will probably pick the Kaberle deal. Not me.

 

No.1 by a bullet is the Cammalleri trade. Cammy is a legitimate 1st-line winger (or centreman!), a bona-fide sniper, and our top playoff scorer two seasons running. So of course we traded him for a slug, then put the cap savings to no good use. Swell. Whatever you think about Cammalleri, we should have gotten a far better return for the only veteran on our roster that anybody considered a 'star.' Habs29 was dead right about Bourque, unfortunately.

 

No.2 is the Lapierre trade. We basically threw away a player who, when on his game, is possibly the best 4th-line C in hockey, and a superb agitator to boot. This, in an era when we cycled through fourth-liners like used condoms, desperately scrambling year after year to plug gaping holes in the bottom six. So basically we threw away the solution to the problem we spent the next year and half trying to fix.

 

I am still peeved that he did not even approach Wisniewski about possibly staying here. I mean, the absence of a Markov replacement was THE biggest reason for the collapse last season.

 

The real issue with Gauthier, though, wasn't bad deals - though they didn't help - so much as confused and toxic leadership that poisoned the organizational culture.

[DON]

Not many i can complain about, my favourite is either turffing Squid, Spacek or Halak (Halak one just to watch media freak out). So best by far has to be cull of Squid.

 

But i aint got many complaints for PG's moves, 2nd round pick for Moore stands out for me as worst.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Not many i can complain about, my favourite is either turffing Squid, Spacek or Halak (Halak one just to watch media freak out). So best by far has to be cull of Squid.

 

But i aint got many complaints for PG's moves, 2nd round pick for Moore stands out for me as worst.

 

2nd for Moore would have been an OK deal if we had re-signed Moore. Yet another case of the Goat throwing away bottom-6ers for no apparent reason.

[BlueKross]

Generally speaking, I would give PG a better grade than a lot of the previous GM's.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Generally speaking, I would give PG a better grade than a lot of the previous GM's.

 

He was definitely better than Houle. 

[JoeLassister]

 

He was definitely better than Houle. 

This is an understatement.  Houle (as well as Corey and Tremblay) owes Montreal a decade of competitive hockey.

[Commandant]

The real issue with Gauthier, though, wasn't bad deals - though they didn't help - so much as confused and toxic leadership that poisoned the organizational culture.

 

Yeah, his moves individually were really not that bad.  It was the collective of his leadership which was awful

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Houle is in a whole other category of bad. He inherited a strong organization and just decimated it. Gauthier made some dodgy moves, but was mainly a victim of the injury to Markov, his own apparently toxic personality (which poisoned the organizational culture), and a seeming lack of any coherent plan or vision for dealing with the meltdown in 2011-12. This is not the same as the utter and mind-boggling incompetence - the series of horrible move upon horrible move - that led Houle to gut the entire organization, from top to bottom. Houle may not be the worst GM in modern league history (Mad Mike takes that palm) but he is certainly in that general vicinity. Goat was merely an unpleasant mediocrity.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Houle and Milbury were not the only idiots in the 90s.  Bob Pulford gutted the Blackhawks in impressive fashion though much of it was from the encouragement of Wirtz.  There wasn't much of a return for Roenick, Chelios and Belfour. 

[sakiqc]

The Cammy trade didnt help. Cammy played great with Calgary while Bourque didn't have an impact. I still can't blame PG for that one, and it's still not sure who won the deal.
Rene Bourque is the type of players the Habs needed and still need. Cammy had become a peripheral shooter and we needed a big guy who can score goals with his back or the back of his leg while looking in the other direction, that is a guy who go around the net and can bury it in. Holland is still an intriguing prospect, and who knows who we'll draft with the 2nd rounder this year.

[sakiqc]

The worse trade has to be Halak. I love Eller and he's a valuable 3rd/4th liner, but Halak is a bluechip goalie. Imagine if we managed to get Pietrangelo instead.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

The worse trade has to be Halak. I love Eller and he's a valuable 3rd/4th liner, but Halak is a bluechip goalie. Imagine if we managed to get Pietrangelo instead.

 

Halak's trade was tough because the value for goalies just wasn't there, even after that big playoff performance.  You can blame other teams for that (The Flyers would have never had to do a massive cap restructuring if they just offered more than a second round pick for Halak) While the media hyped it to be all Halak, most NHL teams gave credit to the Canadien's defensive performance.  That's why Hal Gill was still considered a hot commodity.

 

Montreal was not getting Pietrangelo. 

[Commandant]

There was 0 chance a guy like Pietrangelo was available.

[Rankinator]

Pierre Gauthier just did not know how to handle business. He doesn't do his homework and makes impulsive deals. Montreal starves for a winning team but if it just isn't there that year i don't see how it is a bad thing to play out the season. Like last year for instance, I wanted our team to get that 3rd overall pick to grab Galchenyuk. Impulsive trades like Cammalleri and Spacek that handicap our team are things I can't agree with. The Cammalleri trade can't fully be compared yet since we need to see what comes of that 2nd round pick this year. But he simply does not do his homework. Halak could have garnered a better return, not a Pietrangelo but certainly a quality person and picking up a declining defenseman for a defenseman that would have been off the books this off-season was dumb. The Kostitsyn brothers could have gotten a lot more as well. There are ups and downs but ulitmately could have done better. As for GOOD trades, i think we got a good return for Hal Gill.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Pierre Gauthier just did not know how to handle business. He doesn't do his homework and makes impulsive deals. Montreal starves for a winning team but if it just isn't there that year i don't see how it is a bad thing to play out the season. Like last year for instance, I wanted our team to get that 3rd overall pick to grab Galchenyuk. Impulsive trades like Cammalleri and Spacek that handicap our team are things I can't agree with. Cammalleri trade can't fully be compared yet since we need to see what comes of that 2nd round pick this year. But he simply does not do his homework. Halak could have garnered a better return, not a Pietrangelo but certainly a quality person and picking up a declining defenseman for a defenseman that would have been off the books this off-season was dumb. The Kostitsyn brothers could have gotten a lot more as well. There are ups and downs but ulitmately could have done better. As for GOOD trades, i think we got a good return for Hal Gill.

 

Again, the goalie market was bone dry.  Nobody wanted to pay for a goalie.  Philadelphia was offering a second round pick for Halak.  That's it.  And they paid up the nose in free agency for Bryzgalov.  The same summer we traded Halak, San Jose (one of the teams who offered less for Halak than St. Louis) acquired Antti Niemi for next to nothing and he put up better individual numbers than Halak in their first seasons with new clubs.  Thus proving to most GMs there's no point in risking a trade for a goalie.

 

As for Kostitsyn, nobody wanted him that badly.  Montreal had him on the block for weeks.  Andrei has a lazy reputation around the league.  The best we could get was a second round pick.  There's a reason why Andrei went from bashing the team to saying he wanted to stay, it was because his agent realized that he wasn't getting any feelers for Kostitsyn.  I doubt he will ever return to the NHL.  Nobody wants a dim witted, entitled poor excuse for a power forward.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

 

Again, the goalie market was bone dry.  Nobody wanted to pay for a goalie.  Philadelphia was offering a second round pick for Halak.  That's it.  And they paid up the nose in free agency for Bryzgalov.  The same summer we traded Halak, San Jose (one of the teams who offered less for Halak than St. Louis) acquired Antti Niemi for next to nothing and he put up better individual numbers than Halak in their first seasons with new clubs.  Thus proving to most GMs there's no point in risking a trade for a goalie.

 

As for Kostitsyn, nobody wanted him that badly.  Montreal had him on the block for weeks.  Andrei has a lazy reputation around the league.  The best we could get was a second round pick.  There's a reason why Andrei went from bashing the team to saying he wanted to stay, it was because his agent realized that he wasn't getting any feelers for Kostitsyn.  I doubt he will ever return to the NHL.  Nobody wants a dim witted, entitled poor excuse for a power forward.

 

NHL teams have always - bafflingly - devalued goalies. I don't understand it myself, but then again I cheer for a team that has a distinguished history of riding hot goalies all the way to the Cup. So I accept the proposition that Halak probably never would have brought the return some fans craved. As for Kosty, you only have to see his behaviour in Nashville to confirm that the problem is indeed between his ears. And GMs probably suspected as much.

 

That leaves the Cammy trade, and in that one case it really does seem questionable whether Goat did his homework and shopped him around properly. I forget the details, but I do recall thinking it was something like a low-grade version of the Joe Thornton deal, where a team has defined a player as a 'problem' and then shipped him out without thoroughly scouting the market. I still believe that Cammalleri is a respected NHL sniper and that some team would have been willing to part with more than the Human Turd in order to acquire him down the stretch. But by that point, Gauthier was in full-bore panic mode (and probably anxious to 'teach Cammy a lesson' for speaking out, like the petty creep he seems to have been).

 

What epitomized Goat to me was acquiring Kaberle in response to his coach's repeated demands for PP help, then firing that same coach about three games later. That isn't leadership, it's sheer confusion. That, to me, is when he lost the plot.

[dlbalr]

Here is our writers' selections on what they would undo: http://www.habsworld...cle.php?id=2954

[dlbalr]

And...the ATB piece is up: http://www.habsworld...cle.php?id=2955

[sakiqc]

 

Montreal was not getting Pietrangelo. 

 
 

There was 0 chance a guy like Pietrangelo was available.

We got Eller who was also a very high draft pick just the year before (1st rounder, 13 OA in 2007)and Schultz (3rd Rnd 87 OA in 2008).

Pietrangelo was a 1st rounder, 4 OA in 2008.

In june 2010, I wonder how far apart were Eller and Pietrangelo. I remember Perron saying that the Habs got a really smart player and their best prospect. Pietrangelo is a stud and definitely untouchable now but back then I like to think we had a shot. And if we did, then the Halak trade is one of the worst in Habs history. The goalie market may have been cold, but Halak's value was super hot following his series against the Caps. And he was presented basically as the cornerstone of the franchise when he signed with the Blues, as their best goalie since Jacques Plante.

[dlbalr]

We got Eller who was also a very high draft pick just the year before (1st rounder, 13 OA in 2007)and Schultz (3rd Rnd 87 OA in 2008).

Pietrangelo was a 1st rounder, 4 OA in 2008.

In june 2010, I wonder how far apart were Eller and Pietrangelo. I remember Perron saying that the Habs got a really smart player and their best prospect. Pietrangelo is a stud and definitely untouchable now but back then I like to think we had a shot. And if we did, then the Halak trade is one of the worst in Habs history. The goalie market may have been cold, but Halak's value was super hot following his series against the Caps. And he was presented basically as the cornerstone of the franchise when he signed with the Blues, as their best goalie since Jacques Plante.

 

That's a similar argument to saying that Galchenyuk and Beaulieu weren't drafted too far apart and that it shouldn't be much harder for a team that wants Beaulieu to get Galchenyuk instead.  Eller was one of the Blues' top prospects, Pietrangelo was one of the NHL's top prospects, I'd say they were quite apart in terms of value.  There was zero chance whatsoever that Pietrangelo would ever have been offered up in a trade for Halak.

[BlueKross]

Just my last thought on PG. I don't believe the tandem of Pierre and Bob was ever broken up. I believe that Pierre was the front man for the media, cushionning Bob so he could concentrate on running the club. It was not a coincidence that Bob was gone shortly after Pierre left. My comments should read that moves that were made when Pierre was acting GM were not so bad. I am convinced Bob still had a huge pulse on those trades.