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Subban a Norris Trophy Finalist!


revvvrob

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Doughty, Karlsson & Subban are the final 3.

I'm thinking its Doughty's this year, but if Karlsson was like he was in the playoffs all year then I'd think he wins it. As much as I sincerely hope Subban gets his 2nd, I'm thinking this is as close as he gets this year.

What say you?

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Doughty's team didn't make the playoffs, so IMO, that should take him out of the running. I have a hard time accepting a guy who's team didn't make it into the playoffs as a winner of the hart, Norris, or vezina.

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Doughty's team didn't make the playoffs, so IMO, that should take him out of the running. I have a hard time accepting a guy who's team didn't make it into the playoffs as a winner of the hart, Norris, or vezina.

The voters agree with you, who was the last player to win a major trophy on a non play off team?

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The voters agree with you, who was the last player to win a major trophy on a non play off team?

gretz? Won the scoring race and kings missed the play offs. Pretty sure it was the only season that ever happened.

They will give it to Karlsson.

i thinks so too.

doughty missed play offs.

pk took about a month or so out of the gate before he began playing great hockey. Was playing quite poorly in october and part of november.

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Guest Stogey24

Subban would win if it was based on advanced statistics or plus minus. Otherwise doughty has the minutes advantage and karlsson has the points advantage.

Tough to say. Whomever wins, ain't like they won by a long shot.

I don't think doughty has minute advantage. Could be wrong
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Doughty's team didn't make the playoffs, so IMO, that should take him out of the running. I have a hard time accepting a guy who's team didn't make it into the playoffs as a winner of the hart, Norris, or vezina.

I had the exact same thought. Doughty should not win because his team was a pack of losers (this year).

Based on this playoff, which may not be an accurate indicator, Karlsson has a slight edge on Subban as a player IMHO. He is phenomenal.

Happy to see Subban nominated, though - he seemed to have an 'under the radar' season by his ridiculous standards in terms of public and media commentary, so it's good to know that his awesomeness continues to be universally acclaimed.

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Based on this playoff, which may not be an accurate indicator, Karlsson has a slight edge on Subban as a player IMHO. He is phenomenal.

It's REALLY close to even though in my opinion. I don't want to comment either way in terms of comparing the two as players in general but in this series I think Subban was better than Karlsson early on and then Karlsson took over as the series went on. There were situations where their numbers were really similar in specific games though. For example Karlsson would have 10 shot attempts, 5 shots on goal, 3 hits, 0 points and 17:35 of ice time and at the same time Subban would have 10 shot attempts, 4 shots on goal, 4 hits, 0 points and 17:36 of ice time.

My vote goes to Karlsson for the Norris. I'm not even sure how Doughty is in the conversation. Incredible run to make the playoffs for the Sens and Karlsson led his team in scoring. One point less than Pacioretty, something like 6th in the league in shots (without looking) as a defenseman and although he has a lot of turnovers, (just like Subban) he seems to defend a lot better than he used to as well. I always thought Subban was a lot better than Karlsson defensively but I think that gap has been lessened.

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Subban wins goals 15 to 7 over Doughty.

Subban wins assists 45 to 39 over Doughty.

Subban wins +/- 21 to 3 over Doughty.

Subban helped carry his team to a division title.

Doughty helped carry his team to an early golf season.

Subban was a major contributor at even strength, power play, AND penalty kill. Karlsson isn't good enough defensively to see penalty killing time.

Karlson wins offensively by a much smaller margin over Subban than Subban wins over Doughty (6 goals, 0 assists difference.)

If you go to advanced stats, Subban's margin of victory in this gets wider.

If Subban doesn't win, it's only because so many people dislike Subban.

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The way that argument was constructed was biased though. Here's to hoping but the voters will look at what everyone is good at and what everyone is bad at, not just what 1 player is good at and what 2 players are bad, or kindly, "just good" at.

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The thing is, the Norris isn't about the best offensive defenseman in the league. Nor is it about the best defensive defenseman.

It's the defenseman who brings the most complete overall package to the ice. The Norris winner should be the guy you want on the ice when you need a goal. It should be the guy you want on the ice when you are protecting a lead in the final 5 minutes of the game. It should be the guy you put on the point on the power play. It should be the guy who's killing off penalties. It should be the guy who starts on a defensive zone faceoff, or a guy who starts in the offensive zone. You want him on the ice in every situation.

The problem with Karlsson as a nominee, good as he is, is that he's only half of that package. If he were SO much better offensively than everyone else that there's no comparison, it might be enough, but the problem is he's offensively not significantly better than Subban this year...he's got a 10% advantage in offense. But DEFENSIVELY... Subban's better than 100% his better.

Doughty has the opposite problem... though not as extreme. Defensively, he and Subban are somewhat comparable (although the +/- this year tilt's that in Subban's favor). Offensively, Subban's got him beat by about 25%.

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If Subban doesn't win, it's only because so many people dislike Subban.

You can't say that when he has a Norris and it's a close race.

Subban's biggest advantage is analytics and most voters are still traditional. That's really it. He crushes Doughty offensively and is close to Karlsson but then crushes Karlsson defensively with an edge over Doughty. He's the best at both jobs in the league when looking at his possession/quality numbers.

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Unfortunately. Imo , most voters will see.. Karlsson 21g(15es) 45a 66pts 30ppp

..which ain't too shabby..

Edit: Although Karlsson had 122 more shots on goal.

Subban: 0.88 sh%

Karlsson: 0.72 sh%

Never mind subsequent assists from those attempts on goal.

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I think Drew Doughty is the most overrated player in the league.

Over hyped and unspectacular, imo.

Already forgot Olympics guys? It was like a year ago...

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Well, I agree with xXx above. Going into this series, I had the same idea as Jeff Price, namely that Karlsson was a shade better offensively than Subban but that PK had it all over him in terms of 'complete game' (including physicality and defensive play). I thought of Karlsson as one-dimensional. However, the Karlsson I saw in this series was strong at all ends of the ice - and he even put out Beaulieu with a hit. AND he is able to be a formidable power-play QB, which, let's face it, Subban has not been, at least not this season. It's true that PK owned Karlsson for the first two games. But after that, the Swede took over, even if his team lost.

If Subban can become the engine of a thriving PP, then I think he probably wins it in my book. But based on this series, I give it to Karlsson.

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Already forgot Olympics guys? It was like a year ago...

No, he has 2-3 games a year that are spectaular and are also the biggest games of the year. That's awesome. (buuuuuuuuut) I've seen him live twice and he's nothing to write home about. Doughty occupies the same space as the Ryan Suters/Oliver Ekman Larssons/Ryan McDonaghs, which is a high quality #1 dman that lacks the "it" factor of the Subbans/Karlssons/Charas/Webers. I just don't think he's that great. Watch game 43 or 27 of the Kings next year and you'll see what I mean.

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No, he has 2-3 games a year that are spectaular and are also the biggest games of the year. That's awesome. (buuuuuuuuut) I've seen him live twice and he's nothing to write home about. Doughty occupies the same space as the Ryan Suters/Oliver Ekman Larssons/Ryan McDonaghs, which is a high quality #1 dman that lacks the "it" factor of the Subbans/Karlssons/Charas/Webers. I just don't think he's that great. Watch game 43 or 27 of the Kings next year and you'll see what I mean.

I don't think you can detract from Doughty's excellence. That said, I suspect that part of the reason he is spoken of in such awed tones is that he's such a perfect fit for the Good Canadian Boy stereotype. When old-school NHLers have wet dreams about ideal defencemen, it's not PK Subban or Erik Karlsson they're fantasising about.

Good point about Weber. Given the season Nashville turned in, he probably should have supplanted Doughty on the list.

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