"It’s time for the Canadiens to recognize that Jaroslav Halak is the key to the team’s playoff hopes, just as he was last season."

Pat Hickey, Montreal Gazette, Saturday January 23

Seeing all the debate about Halak this year, I thought some of you might be interested in reading this article in today's Gazette.

(And please - *intelligent comments.* Don't go all ballistic. I know many of you *on this board* disagree. Give your reasons why (other than he's the goalie of the future).

Halak is the key to the Habs playoff success this season. If he stays, he should probably play more because he's been the more consistent guy. If he goes, his return should be enough to put us into the playoffs.

I still believe that, long-term, Price will be the better goalie. He is two years younger and has a lot to learn. That said, it's a win-win for Montreal. I'm curious to see how things pan out.

Why keep creating new threads for old fodder?

I think Halak is the goalie of right now (he can still be inconsistent as he is also young and learning), and Price is the goalie of the future. What I am not sure of is whether Price's future will be in Montreal. I am starting to hear analyst suggest that Price might need to get out of Montreal (ala Lats) to take his game to the next level. He is damage right now from being moved too fast and too hard into a role he simply was not ready for. He has been in recovery mode ever since that playoff disaster in his first year.

I still think if we had kept Huet that year, we would have gone farther in the playoffs, and Price would be a better goalie right now. Same think with Lats... rushed, turned into a superstar, lost his focus, lost his confidence, stopped improving....

Before we anoint Halak the number 1, I would like to see him play more against the tougher opponents.

Price's last few starts were so-so. That should settle the argument in the immediate term. This team can't afford many more losses - we're now definitively in the do-or-die phase of the season. Because Price did not make a compelling case for himself, you go with Halak until he falters; and if Price replaces him with a middling performance, then you go back to Halak. In other words, I see Halak as the #1 guy for the immediate present. This is in no way an attack on Price. It's just a reading of where this team is and where its goalies are.

Listen, you're not going to find a bigger Price guy than me. But right now Halak is getting the W's, and looking pretty good in doing so. I still think Price is this teams goalie of the future but right now you gotta ride the hot hand.

And again, from today's (Monday) Gazette:

"Time to give Halak the job he’s won" - Headline from front of sports page...

More from the article:

"“Without Halak’s big weekend, the Canadiens (would be) in 13th place.”

Somewhere
in the midst of Jaro Halak’s big weekend (two critical games against strong opposition, two wins, 64 shots, one goal) I recalled a curious fact mentioned by Alain Crête on RDS a few weeks back:
Never in his NHL career (his Canadiens career, in other words) has Halak started a game after a loss.
Never, in other words, does this young man take the ice without a mountain of pressure on his shoulders: lose, and he sits. Even a win doesn’t always guarantee him the start the next time out.
But now, with this curious up-and-down season coming up on the Olympic break and then the short, furious scramble for playoff spots that is sure to follow, you have to wonder. Will the battling Slovak finally be given the job he has legitimately won a halfdozen times?
Or will Jacques Martin and Bob Gainey go on with business as usual, giving Price the bulk of the work and trotting him out every time Halak has the misfortune to lose a game?
To tell the truth, Price has been much better this season than I thought he would be. He’s been better – but he hasn’t been as good as Halak.
No matter. Price still gets a free ride from the organization, the media and most fans. Every time the opposition scores a goal, the broadcast crew (it doesn’t seem to matter which crew it is, TSN, RDS or CBC) immediately declares that “you couldn’t blame Price for that one.”
Maybe, maybe not. If Price is never to blame, why is his record so much worse than Halak’s? It seems that enough pucks are sneaking through to add up to this curious but dramatic discrepancy in the won-loss record: Halak is 14-8 (overtime record included) while Price is 11-20.
(Price also has a 2.73 goalsagainst and a .913 save percentage compared with Halak’s 2.45 and .927, but I’ll leave it to more discerning observers to decide whether that constitutes a significant statistical difference.)"

Read the complete article in today's Gazette...

And there's a 2nd article on the same topic on page 2 of the sports section. (And, no, I do not work for the Gazette!) :-)

I've finally figured the puzzle out.

Jack, YOU'RE ALAN WALSH!!! And we thought our little HabsWorld site was so unknown. Halak's agent is even here! Nice!

I'm not gonna go over this again, but the win/loss record doesn't tell the whole story. Neither does the stats, playing against bad teams can pad your stats. Playing the bulk of your games lately with a full staff of players help, getting more goal support helps your win/loss record. Last I saw Price avg. 1.5 goal support, Halak had something like 2.5 goal support.

These stats are a red herring, but I'm happy with Halak getting some more starts, what ever it takes to win. Price is still the future, and he's still young.

Now they're making it out that Halak was the key in a 6-0 blowout? Really? I mean, good for him to get a shutout, but I don't think the Habs' big weekend was all on him at all.

I agree with you. Price is the future.

It's not that I don't like Halak though, but before the beginning of next year one of those two fine goalies will be gone. It just makes sense to have a preference to the youngest, more talented one. Too bad, because Halak is really good too. Not fun to make such a decision.

I think jackp is actually Jack Todd.

And nobody is disputing that Halak has been playing well. But Todd loses credibility when he repeatedly uses the same stats without giving the context (like Wamsley did in his article - I wonder if I should email him telling him to read it?). Stubbs at least mentioned that Price has faced tougher opponents and received worse goal supports, Todd just celebrates after every good Halak performance and refrains from commenting on all the other games.

By the way, did anyone notice this line from Stubbs's article: "Halak is a slice of white bread in this multigrain world, though one with a rye sense of humour." I wonder how many years Stubbs has been waiting to say that.

I just can't see how people can't celebrate what Halak does WITHOUT knocking Price. Whenever Halak plays a good game, they take swipes at Price. This isn't like the leafs and habs, you can like both, you do not have to choose.

The other day I was watching a game, I forget which, they were saying that goalies that make great spectactular saves are generally the goalies that are out of position, and the mundane everyday saves are the sign of a good goalie because they are in the right position.

The reason I bring this up, is that Price hasn't many hightlight saves, because his positioning has been better. I worry a lot about Halaks positioning, and his rebound control still, he's gotten better, but you still see pucks sit in front of the net instead of being smothered.

I like bother goalies, but each have stuff to work on, Halak supporters think he is perfect, and thats doing him a dis-service.

i've been a member of this site for like 5 yrs and although i NEVER post i like to read the threads daily for a nice dose of habs related news & to see what most fans are thinking... this price/ halak bull has forced me out of my (media silence).

everyone needs to chill..... if you watch the habs as i do every night u will clearly notice that halak is playing better in the net on most nights. price had a 7-10 game stretch were he played great but we were unable to win. then halak went on that 6 wins in 7 starts to pad his win total and is playing really good hockey these days. martin understands halak is seeing the game well & on most nights the game is still moving pretty quickly for price... halak is getting the bulk of the starts as well he should. he is the more developed goalie at this point

i am not discounting price & his "potential" as only a fool would let a goalie go who has won & been an MVP at every level of hockey he's played in. his ability to reach 50 wins faster then the likes of greats like roy, brodeur, luongo & fleury are a testament to his potential and 1 of the major reasons he isnt going anywhere. i believe gainey has learned from dealing away huet to early and will keep halak until next years deadline. he will continue to play them both and have them push eachother for the benefit of the team as well as for their development (barring a RFA contract from another team or an over the top trade).

either way the montreal candiens are blessed to have 2 talented goalies under 25. price being the younger prospect with a higher ceiling & halak being the older equally talented goalie who has clearly benefited from his time in the AHL & seems to be just that... 2yrs more developed!!!!

At last!!! A balanced post! (Even if I don't agree with the implication that in 2 years Price will be as good as Halak is now).

At least now the Price supporters (not calling you that IN THE HEARTS OF MEN) are giving Halak a little bit of praise (grudgingly, I might add). Let's not forget that it wasn't too long ago that they wanted him traded away. (Some of them still do. I guess that would be one way of making sure Price is number one...)

I've never understood why fans of a team can't be supporters of both netminders.

Isn't it obvious? If you say anything the least bit critical or praiseworthy of either goalie, you're automatically a lover or a hater!

Nobody wanted Halak traded away because he was bad. It's called dealing from a position of strength/selling high to support your teams weaknesses.

But that's the problem with selling high: once your guy is playing well, you're always too attached to trade him.

Another reason to trade Halak, is his agent has made it pretty clear he doesn't want his client coming back to a team where he'll be a 1a/1b tandem.

The incredible thing to me is that Halak has never once gotten to play after a loss. How can some of you people sit in judgment (Price is more talented, Price has more upside) when Halak has never really been handed the reigns. We have never seen him be able to come back after a loss (his fault or not). We have never seen how he responds to carrying the load knowing his job is secure.

For all we know he will falter if given the chance, but Price has faltered numerous times and keeps getting more chances. Halak can't even get the chance, which is key to a goalie's development. Do you really blame him for wanting to either be traded or be played? He needs to do it and we need to see it before we decide that Price is better.

I think both these goalies need more seasoning before they are legitimate number one guys (I define that as showing more consistency, they can both pitch great games). I just want to see Halak get that seasoning as well before we make any decisions. I think Halak has earned the right to play this entire road trip, win or lose.

Halak is doing very well. I like him a lot. I am a Halak supporter. I would like to see him get a start after a win.

Price is developing nicely. I am a Price supporter. It is too bad he was called up too early and Huet was let go too early.

Wow, look at that. I like both goalies. Neato. I still think we should trade Halak for Ott straight up, and call up Dejardains. Unless BG can keep both next year. But I don't see that happening. The only issue is Ott is UFA at the end of the year.

What this tells me is the coaches know that goaltending isn't the issue with this team, it was the injuries, the influx of new players, and other circumstances.




One thing that gets me, is now Halak gets a chance to play more and peeps are still complaining about his lack of a chance? He's getting his chance right now.

Brobin you mention about how we can sit in judgement of Halak? We can because we are fans, but we as fans have very little say in the long run. It's up the coachs to determine when a goalie plays, do you think they would put a player in 'just to save their job'? Or maybe they see something we do not? We do not and will not ever know the full story what goes on in the dressing room. What happens between games regarding attitudes.

My reasoning against Halak is my observations of his lack of rebound control, feel free to disagree with me on that. Last two games he has been better, so sure give him the road trip, but don't error too much in giving Halak a chance, if he's playing bad get him out, don't stubbornly play the 'it's Halak turn' card and make two wrongs.

The way the goalies have been handled this season has been about perfect in my eyes, except for the strength of opponents each goalie has faced.

The chance I am referring to is the chance to play after he loses. The chance to come out the next game and redeem himself. Price gets that treatment, Halak does not. I think that is a key to both judging and developing a true number one guy. I don't begrudge the opportunities Price had to carry the ball for a few games, win or lose, but Halak should get the same opportunity. For the matter, several times this season Halak has lost even though he played great, but he didn't get the next game. A week later, Price lost, but he got the next game.

In other words, I suggest we play by the same rules between the goalies, not one set of rules for Halak and a different set for Price. It might make both of them better and will certainly help us down the road when we have to decide what they are worth

As for trading Halak, unless the return is great, I wouldn't do it. We made the mistake once with Price (dumping Huet for a draft pick) and I don't want to see it done again, unless we are completely out of contention or the offer is too good to refuse. We can get a pick for him this summer to let him sign with another team if we want, he is restricted and I don't believe either of them are going to run to the KHL any time soon.

In other words, I suggest we play by the same rules between the goalies, not one set of rules for Halak and a different set for Price. It might make both of them better and will certainly help us down the road when we have to decide what they are worth

What's wrong with

You win your in
You lose you snooze?

Hopefully there wont be many more losses this season to test this theory out.





There's a lot of problems with that. You can play terrible in a 6-5 win, and play great in a 1-0 loss.

Why should the goalies be held accountable for the lack of scoring by the players in front of him? Unless we want to blame Halak and Price for their lack of goal scoring too

The problem with the ones who claim " A : Give Halak the #1 AND B: We shouldn't have dealt Huet so fast" is that without B, yoy don't have A.

I always liked Price, and I still do. I still think he will become one of the better goalies in the league(within the next 4-5 years) but we have to face the fact that Halak has been playing some solid hockey lately. He should get 2 of the 3 games on this road trip!

We can't let Price sit out for 2 weeks, it just isn't fair to any goalie!

I can't answer for anyone else, but for me it's easy: With Halak, we usually win. With Price, we usually lose. I'm a fan of the Montreal Canadiens and so it logically follows that I'm going to want to play the one who wins, and avoid the one who loses.

In my case, if you're *unreasonably* supportive of one side, and continually fudge the facts, try to pooh-pah what the other guys is doing, and make bold predictions *on the future* of your guy based on what he did in junior and the minors, well, yeah, that kinda classifies you as a lover.

This is revisionist history, unless his agent has made an additional comment that I'm not aware of. His agent wanted a trade when Halak was hardly playing at all and was being treated unfairly based on his performance. I have no idea where Halak and his agent presently stand, based on the increased workload Halak has gotten lately.

As to the other comment about trading Halak to get a good return. You say it has nothing to do with how he's played. Good. Then couldn't the same argument be used to trade Price?

So why don't you want us to trade Price instead? You guys make me laugh. Be honest. You like Price better. You think he has more upside. Good. That's your opinion. At least be honest about it. You won't find me trying to be PC. I admit I like Halak better. I admit I don't think Price will ever be anything better than a mediocre goalie. I don't come out and say that I want Price traded because "it would be better for the team." I out and out say that I want to keep Halak and don't care what happens to Price because I think Halak's the better goalie and is better for the team I love: the Montreal Canadiens.

It's time to address this issue of style... Personally, I don't care if the goalie stands on his head during the game, as long as he keeps the puck out. Can you think of a worse "style" than the way Hasek used to play? Yet he was a dominant goalie. I see what you're saying about Halak: he gives up rebounds (more than Price does, I admit). So what? He also stops more pucks than Price does. That to me is more important than who has the better rebound control.

Now this, I completely agree with. Neither of the two is a Patrick Roy, just as neither is a red-light Racicot. It was disgraceful when they sat Halak for 2 weeks and it shouldn't happen to Price either...

6 consecutive posts, that's could be a post padding record!

What's unreasonably supportive mean? Having a favourite? You're the only who's claimed to have a favourite.



Fudging the facts as in using stats out of context to support your argument? Again, you're the only one I've seen do this in the entire thread. Find me someone else who's done this in a post.



Pretty much every poster in this thread has said that he likes both goalies. Again - except for one.



Doesn't it stop being a bold prediction when almost everyone in hockey is making the same prediction? This is because success in junior and minor hockey is a huge part of assessing prospects. (Then, of course, there's the NHL success that you omit.) You can hardly expect there to be a line-up of people agreeing with you, when you choose to ignore pre-NHL (and early NHL success) when assessing prospects.



You gave 4 criteria for being a lover and you're the only one in the thread who's met any of them.

As for your question about why people would prefer to trade Halak then Price, this is because Price has higher upside - in my opinion and in practically everyone else's opinion whether professional or amateur. This point leads to the conclusion that Price is the goalie of the future, and that leads to it making more sense to trade Halak. Trading Price would only make sense because he would yield a much higher return (ask yourself why that is) - but still, teams rarely deal away their most valuable assets, so I can't see it happening. Halak would really have to have stolen the job from him, and by that point, Price's trade value wouldn't be as high anymore. Of course, they could always keep both goalies, but that's an entirely different matter that you're trying to fuse with this one.

Man, I took a break from marking exams, and you can bet it was pure pleasure compared to that!!!

Thank god that this is the only place where I'm "treated" to such questionable logic. Go anywhere else (such as the Gazette) and you won't find many espousing what many espouse here. (And when I say "thank god," I mean for the team's sake, not mine).

Don't you suspect that move saves per game could be a symptom of giving up all those rebounds? The rebound issue may not mean much against the lesser opponents (up until recently that is what Halak played the majority of), we'll see when he gets more quality opponents how it goes. I want both goalies to succeed, I do not want Price to succeed at the expense of Halak, but that seems like what has to happen, the same way you want to see Halak succeed at the expense of Price. It's ok to have favourites, I do, I don't hide them really. I bring up legitimate reasons for doubt in Halak, and bring up numbers, which we've gone over and over and over don't show the whole story. I've always written reasons for concern with Price, so I'm a equal opportunist.

Sadly, I have to agree with Jack, haha. I've been seeing more and more articles out there discussing the benefits of trading Price and hanging onto Halak.

Personally, I fully believe that whichever goalie we stick with will become mired in mediocrity while the one we get rid of will become a Vezina winner.

I think Price has more of a future in the NHL. I don't dislike either. I know this is your favourite subject, and frankly I don't know why I bother to answer you. I guess i'm bored. The idea of not liking Price at this stage in his career is just as arbritrary as saying either of them has a chance of being anything but .500 goaltenders. There are way bigger issues on the team than goaltending. I would not trade either in a non-cap world, but because we have the number 1 AHL goaltender in Dejardains, maybe trading Halak at the end of the year would be an option.

Right now Halak is the better goalie. I feel much better watching him in net. I have more confidence. Right now. Please save this post and in 2012, we can look at it again. If Price is in the minors, because he is a useless bum, I will congratulate you for ranting nonstop about the subject. If he is good, (which I think he will be), you can .......Well, you know!

Well, at least we've finally turned the corner from the Koivu/Ribeiro debate.

But seriously, you didn't really say anything at all in your post. It was just a big, "IhavenothingtosaybutHalakisgreatleavemealone." Again, pretty much everybody in hockey agrees that Price has extremely high upside. If you think he'll be a mediocre goalie for the rest of his career, that's your problem - but you can't expect to find hosts of people agreeing with you there. There's no use bringing it up after every good game Halak plays, you'll always get the same response (unless you're talking to Jack Todd who has little credibility).

This thread has gotten predictably unpleasant. I don't want to add fuel to the fire and I'm fully appreciative of Price's championship pedigree, his NHL accomplishments, and (most significantly) his younger age than Halak. I am NOT trying to say the Habs should trade Price. In fact, I'm kinda thinking out loud here, so take what I say here in that spirit.

There's one thing that gnaws a bit at me. We've seen this movie before. The Habs, for instance, quietly faced a related 'dilemma' in 1996-98. They had a 44th overall pick from 1994 (one José Theodore) and a 226th overall pick from the same year (one Tomas Vokun). Theodore had championship pedigree and the aura of a winner. Vokun was perceived as a long-shot. Well, we all know who has proven to be the more enduringly excellent NHL performer.

(There's also the old Theodore/Garon debate - also argued with intensity - with Theo again being preferred. The Habs bet correctly there, but in the end both went on comparably mediocre careers).

The Sharks perhaps did something similar with the highly-touted Nabokov over Kiprusoff (although at least the former was a lower draft pick; nonetheless, the conventional wisdom was Nabokov was the future star). Both have had ups and downs but Kirpusoff is probably the guy most would pick now.

The Habs also faced this issue in the early 70s, having to choose between Tony Esposito and Ken Dryden (not to mention Rogie Vachon). They made the right choice, fortunately, but it's worth noting that 'second banana' Tony Esposito was widely regarded as in Dryden's class for most of the 1970s.

What is the point of this? I'm honestly not sure, except to remind us that pedigree is not an assurance of career outcomes and perhaps that goaltending is probably the most poorly-understood position in the game as far as scouting and evaluation go. (More proof being that teams tend not to trade big assets for goalies, despite the position's importance; they tend not to draft goalies as highly as position players; and many franchises inexplicably limp along for years with substandard goaltending yet think they can win and don't address it, e.g., Philly, Ottawa, and Detroit, which actually *did* win, and even Vancouver before Luongo). All that being said, then, I think it's entirely possible that the Habs will 'go with Price' only to find the two guys having comparable careers, or Halak becoming the better #1.

I'm not saying this WILL happen. I'm just saying that the scouts' word should probably mean less when it comes to G than, say, position players. Draw from that what you like.

really though.....
halak is not the key, neither is price. goaltending is NOT the problem with montreal in this first half of the season.

Health, health & health. montreal is not deep and if we are to succed we need to STAY healthy. our defence is pretty much there now we wait for AK and see what happens.

we have played 2 games with our optimal lineup and i think we can win consistently with either of price or halak as long as were healthy... halak however, is giving us the added option of stealing a game on his own.

Goes without saying that the traded goalie will also be the difference in a playoff series against us.

not a single person on this site including me would of penciled us in 8th spot with all of markov, gionta, gill, obyrne, kostitsyn and gomez/ hammer missing considerable amounts of games played.

as well as SK's demotion and recall only to be hurt with his brother simultaneously with the return of gionta & markov. we sould be battling in the basement but are as of today sitting infact in 8th. we just out played the New Jersey devils for 6o minutes and sh&t pumped the rangers with some good old fashion revenge.

hail halak and praise price cause there both are guys this year. and may the hottest hand lead us to glory!!
hoping Ak comes back just as he left off hoottt! and our defence finds balance.

pouliot continues his rennaissance and we position ourselves for a run... cause i for one always believe we have a chance. just watch that miracle of 93 to understand

I'd say the game AK comes back we will be at most 'optimal', with the lines as they are and Halak/Price duoing.

I don't think Theo's decline was mainly due to hockey reasons, but more because of controversy/attitude problems/stress and stuff like that. Had he played in a different market, Theodore might still be a Vezina calibre goalie.

Either way, whether it was Theodore or Vokoun who turned out to be the better goalie, the Habs made the right decision. The GM that made the call can not be blamed with hindsight. Think of a poker hand: you have pocket aces and somebody goes all in before the flop. You call. Whether you win or lose the hand, you're not to blame - you made the best decision given the information you had at the time. This is how most of Gainey's decisions are (/were).

Scout's word and pedigree still need to be taken into consideration. When a player is that far ahead of the learning curve for someone his age, you have to play the odds. Banking totally on the guy that was drafted earliest is foolish. Completely ignoring pedigree is even more foolish. You can't fold pocket aces! If it turns out that Halak is an elite NHL goalie in a few years and Price is in Europe, it won't change my mind about what should have been done now given what we know now.

maybe 5 games after his return. then we'll be in business