pretty simple question.

do we make a trade and try to save the season, barely make the playoffs and see what happens there.

or just trade Hamrlik, Spacek, whoever is tradeable in order to have some needed caproom and ... to TANK.

Tanking is just more quick-fix thinking IMHO. 'Ooo, if we get a top-5 pick, all will be well.' Come on. We HAVE two fairly recent top 5 picks in Pouliot and Price and I don't see miracles descending from heaven. And besides, whoever we pick will be universally declared a failure and run out of town on a rail once he encounters the first sign of growth pains, which he WILL. So you can't give me the argument that 'at least a high pick offers the fans some hope.' It does, for about 10 minutes. Then the loathing and recriminations begin. Meanwhile UFAs want nothing to do with a perceived loser of an organization.

No. The current team has a feasible prospect of contending in 2-3 seasons without radical surgery if Gainey and the Molsons can just keep their heads. Bob should of course trade away any UFAs he can't sign (Pleks) and over-the-hill/overpaid veterans (Hamrlik, maybe) and perhaps Halak in order to add young assets to that foundation. Even the latter two moves, I wouldn't be in some great rush to make. In any case, that's not the same thing as 'tanking,' surely.

Ny Islanders and Tavres

Tavares

Tanking ius a matter of perspective, if you watched the last 3 games i'd swear they were tanking.

The roster isn't good enough to win, no injured player is coming back soon. So trade some assests and get ready for next year.

[quote name='Chris' date='Feb 2 2010, 04:06 PM' post='387289']
Ny Islanders and Tavres

Tavares

Tanking ius a matter of perspective, if you watched the last 3 games i'd swear they were tanking.

The roster isn't good enough to win, no injured player is coming back soon. So trade some assests and get ready for next year.

Tanking is pretty much a moot point. Rusty look a way Up. THANX Friendly.

Lol, what the hell kind of question is that? Of course not!

Although I can appreciate the logic in tanking, there is still no guarantee that higher prospects will turn this club around. I'd rather see my team fight through adversity thanks.

No need to tank........we can always TRADE UP to get a top 5 pick. And finishing last/2nd last doesn't guarantee a top 2 pick either

This team can lose on its own without being told to do so. All tanking does is make losing acceptable to the players and the organization. If they're gonna get a good lottery pick, make them earn it by losing for real!

Yes Tank and Rebuild, get rid of Hamrlik, Spacek and Gomez (if possible)

I chose "yes" because I'd prefer that they wind up with a top 5 pick than finish 7th or 8th in the East. I don't want them to throw games, but if they trade a couple of players away for youth, we won't have to pretend to be a bottom 5 team in the league - we'll be one.

Tanking is not the answer. We have no way to fall below the Leafs and the Oilers nor probably the Hurricanes. If we try to tank we probably won't make the bottom 5. There are a few teams in a position to sell almost all their decent veteran assets for prospects and we can't do that. Atlanta will fall like a stone once they trade Kovalchuk for some picks and prospects.

We have a good shot at finishing 7th or 8th in the East. Maybe we fail and finish 9th or 10th in the East which is 22nd or 23rd overall (where we are now). If we tank we can finish 25th. Will the 6th pick be all that much better than the 8th or 9th? I don't think so given that the cost is to install a culture of losing in some of our young players.

Trade any assets possible that give a reasonable return.

Tanking is the wrong way to put it. We are tanking without effort.

Here's a list of our assets that we can trade:

O'Bryne
Cammallari
Plekanec
Gorges
Pouliot
Price
Halak
both Kostitsyns
Pacioretti
Spacek
Markov
Weber
Leblanc
Maxwell
Desjardins
Subban
Carle
Kristo

Trading them all will certainly guarantee us a top 2 pick. We can probably also get
6 or 7 more first rounders and a number of second rounders over the next two years.
We will also guarantee ourselves a top 2 pick next year and probably the following year.

Of course if things don't work out we can repeat in 2015.

Jeesh, apparently somebody sure likes watching the BullHabs play.

For all the whining and worrying about how "bad" we are and how teams behind us will SURELY catch up and overtake us, if each team continued at their present pace and we stopped at game 60 (for now), here's what the points would look like:

60 games played.

(Position in the east) (team name) (points at 60 games if pace continuted)

6. Philly 65
7. TB 62
8. Mtl 61
8. Fla 61
8. Atl 61
8. Bos 61
12. NYR 60
13. NYI 58

That's ignoring tie breakers.

Despite all the injuries, all the disparaging comments about the team, and all the negativity, the Habs are right there in the thick of things. There would not be an appreciable difference at 82 games, either. So, let's stop with the "94 points is what makes the playoffs" butkas and start looking at what's REALLY HAPPENING. This is a tight race with a pile of teams who are mediocre - it's as simple as that. Us tanking wouldn't change a whole lot, and any team getting a great return on a trade wouldn't out-distance any of these other teams by a significant margin - at least it's doubtful this late in the season.

We're in it as much as any other team. That's the way of the new NHL. This is not a dynasty anymore, this is... how to call it... REALITY.

Time for Habs fans to live in the now.

Time for Habs fans to live in the now.


Tanking in my mind can happen in various ways. From the players stand point they can just go through the motions and not put the effort in on a daily basis. Just quit and not compete. From the management side, you can purposely misplay your players, not putting them in the best position to win or you can trade away assets diluting your own product. I strongly disapprove of all of the above. Saying that, I am all for, short term loss for long term gain. There is a very fine line here.

How is 'yes' winning? Sickening... And the hyprocrites accuse the Habs of playing with no heart.

Trade Hamrlik, Halak and Spacek(if you can get rid of him) for youth and prospects. Leave the rest of the team as it is.

I was replying to Prime Minister K. who suggested we should trade all of our assets.

I think this should be a multiple choice poll, because it's not as simple as "trade whomever you can and tank" or "trade for help so we can claw our way in". In my opinion, if you can get rid of some suspect contracts, that's what you do, not to get a higher pick, but to improve the cap situation and manouverability for next season and beyond. If anyone would take Hamrlik off our hands that's a no-brainer - as CC mentioned in another thread as solid as he's been it may prove to be addition by substraction because you get to play Spaceman on his natural side OR if you can get rid of Spacek's contract you do that instead, but not both at the same time.

If you can do one of those two and get either an expiring contract or a lesser one, or a pick/prospect in return you can start thinking about keeping both goalies for the short term, and delaying that decision for another six months to a year (also Halak might fetch you more as a signed roster player than as a pending RFA, he's playing more now so there's really no reason for him to consider KHL, especially as the economic climate over there changes).

Finally, we're seeing signs of what people were afraid of at the start of the year - our small lineup is wearing down, they are getting hit, injured and slowly deplated. You can have all the heart you want, but you do need some protection and cannot completely negate lack of size (see Koivu, Saku) - I would consider picking up another Moen/Kostopulous-type guy or two, maybe even scourge the waivers for one (Gainey has done it before).

Tanking is for rebuilding.

Rebuilding is for long-term success.

Long-term success requires a GM with a vision and a farm system good at developing players.

We have neither. So tanking would be a waste of time. We had tons of prospects in 2003 when Gainey came in and look what good that did to us.

If we were to tank and aim at a rebuild, first I'd want to see the current staff -- Gainey, Gauthier, Brisebois, Martin -- gone and replaced with a staff that have a real vision for the Habs. No point telling a GM who already squandered and failed a rebuild have a 2nd 5-years go at it.

It pains me to say this, but I think you're right. IF it's a full on rebuild, it's time for a fresh start, a new approach. Oh ya, the pain is not that I agree with Mr. Kozed, it's that people would lose there jobs, stuff like that.

This is a lucid point. However, there are two possible weaknesses to the case.

1. Gainey has fired both coaching staffs resposible for the first rebuild. In effect, he has concluded that player development, not drafting, was the problem and that coaching was the cause of poor development. This doesn't mean he should keep his job, necessarily, but it does mean that a big chunk of the 'current staff' was NOT implicated in the failure of the rebuild. In short: Gainey has already followed your advice, but been more surgical about it.

2. We don't need a TOTAL rebuild. What we need is for current youngsters like A. Kostitysn, Lapierre and Pouliot to progress, 3-4 new young players to develop as significant contributors over the next 2-3 years, and at least one of our goalies to emerge as elite. If that can be added to the current, perfectly adequate nucleus, we will contend IMHO.

Having important pieces not be injured would also give us a better gauge of the team as a whole.... I know I know not allowed to use excuses as a reason.

All that being said, I didnt even answer the poll because I dont even think tanking is an option. Tanking is for shitty expansion and small markets organizations with no ambition, no talent in the pipeline and nobody with any clue at the helm. Tanking is a despicable well-fare loser tactics. "I suck, reward me for being a shitty team and give me a franchise player!" I shit on those teams and that kind of mentality.

A healthy team is a team that can be a contender and keep a steady flow of youth coming in the team because they scout, draft and develop well. That is the ultimate goal. We could have been that team when, but too many bad calls got us in the present situation. Gainey wants to win now and planned all his moves with short-term success in mind, including the new staff. You dont trade your biggest prospect (McDonagh) for Gomez's contract because you're thinking long term. You dont fill your roster with UFAs because you think long-term.

As it's been said, we dont need a total rebuild. My plan would be simple and reasonable. Pick an age limit and get rid of everybody above that age limit. The critical age is 30. That's Markov, Gomez and Gionta's age.

1- Dump everyone above 30 for picks or prospects: Markov, Gomez, Gionta, Mara, Hamrlik, Spacek, Gill, Metropolit, Darche.
2- Use Carey Price + something else as a bargain chip for a young franchise player stud. Not a 31 yrd old Lecavalier/Marleau type. A younger guy, a Kane/Stamkos/Kopitar/Nash type, someone to build around. Can be a defenseman or a forward, doesnt matter. That's the guy everybody wants to tank to draft, but I'd just trade for one, or find a lesser one with potential to elevate his game to become one. Halak established himself, and Price is the big hyped guy. I'd want Price's potential at another position dressed every game, not on the bench. And if Halak falters later, get a goalie elsewhere. Phoenix got Bryzgalov off waivers, Detroit won the Cup with Osgood. Great goalies are vital, bad goalies can sink you, but good goalies are enough if the rest of the team is solid enough,
3- Use Markov the same way TB used Boyle (2 solid prospects, a 1st and 4th round pick)
4- Fill the rest of the roster with prospects in competition against each other.

Sounds simple, and it is; just not easy to do. However it would be a way to replenish while still remaining fairly competitive. When you think about it, it leaves us with the same 1st line (13-14-46), the same #1 goalie (Halak), the same checkers & secondary scoring (Pouliot, SK, (Moen, Lapierre). It's the blueline that would be overhauled because all the old legs are there.

I wouldnt hesitate a second to give regular NHL jobs to Weber, Carle & Subban. We'd have MAB, Gorges and O'Byrne left. Add any D got from trades and we have internal competition. I know, that's 4, 5 very small but very mobile defensemen. But I would build my system accordingly! Use a system built on speed and counter-attack and defensemen always acting like 4th forwards. Use your strength for now, aim at a better, more balanced blueline later.

There you have it. A rebuild while still being reasonable playoffs contenders. And once in the playoffs, anything can happen.

Over the past couple of years Bob has systematically removed every player/coach/scout associated with the "old culture" of the team, and yet continues to produce the same results. Sooner or later the constant will be hard to ignore.

To be fair, it was only over the past year that he started to do dismantle the culture he had helped create.

Further to this, I'm not sure the original comment really stands up. What we saw in 2008 was a team play catastrophically below what its talent level seemed to dictate and to wilt rather than rise to the occasion. The 2009 team, generally speaking, plays with a lot more gumption, stands up for itself, and shows some character. (Consider the difference between the Markov injury last season and this season. Last year, the team simply folded. This season, they hung in). And all things (including injuries) considered, I'm not sure we can really say this team is playing below its talent level. I don't see too many position players this season who we can point to as disappointments. Maybe Spacek and Lapierre. Last year practically everybody was a disappointment.

So character-wise this group is a huge advance. Coaching-wise, whatever we think of Martin's system, he has instituted a clear and logical expectations structure. If you don't listen, you sit. That's also a huge advance on Carbo's seeming refusal to instil any discipline.

The similarities are indeed eerie in other respects: dubious zone defence, crappy transition play. But I don't see this as a 'character' issue per se.

As for player development - way too soon to tell, but the early reports on Boucher in Hamilton seem very promising.

Always great Mr. Cuke.

The bold is what baffles me. Why are we having the exact same issues as before. Everything you said is true...In the face of that we still fail where we always have failed.

I really wonder if we have the same problems because Bob made the same type of team (upgrades to talent/heart aside).

It's like "groundhog day" all over again, new coach, core players yet same game plan.........year after year

Anyone who wants to see their team lose = not a fan. Bottom line.

That's what happens when your team's better players are mostly under 6' tall. Smaller players have a harder time coping with the rough play at this time of the year.

Think about it, who will fare better in the long run, a 5'9" player who weighs 190pds or a 6'3" player who weighs 220pds? Over a long 82 game season, battling in the corners, bodychecks, crosschecks etc.etc.etc.

The problems is the habs injuries have been of the weird type...Markovs, Cammys, Giontas, A kosts..not really anything to do with physical play...maybe Cammys.