Wamsley01

You are saying the way to rebuild is through the draft, with top Draft picks. All those guys are top draft picks, and only 2 of them won the cup. Losing is no guarantee of future success. Tampa Bay did not win the CUp because of Lecavalier. They won the Cup because they drafted Richards/Kubina with value picks, they picked up the MVP off the junk heap as a Free Agent, they traded an average young defenseman Paul Mara for Nikolai Khabibulin, they stole Dan Boyle out from under FLorida's nose. All those other moves were more responsible for the Cup then the Micheal Jordan of hockey. Being handed the top pick does not guarantee a bloody thing. Rob Ramage Doug Wickenheiser Dale Hawerchuk Gord Kluzak Brian Lawton Mario Lemieux Wendel Clark Joe Murphy Pierre Turgeon Mike Modano Mats Sundin Owen Nolan Eric Lindros Roman Hamrlik Alexandre Daigle Ed Jovanovski Bryan Berard Chris Phillips Joe Thornton Vincent Lecavalier Patrik Stefan Rick DiPietro Not many Stanley Cup Champions there with the team that drafted them. Lecavalier/Modano/Mario Lemieux That is over 20 years. 4 championships out of 20 seasons. A 20% success rate. Yep, I am on board. Now take a look at the Conn Smythe winners in the last 20 years and check their average draft position. These were the top 10 Draft choices: Mario Lemiuex, Scott Stevens, Steve Yzerman. You can add Gretzky in there as he would have been a top pick but he was undrafted.

Thornton - 0 Cups (playoffs 2 series wins/6 series losses) Marleau - 0 CUps (playoffs 3 series wins/7 series losses) Olli Jokinen - 0 Playoff games Lecavalier - 1 Cup Legwand - 0 Cups (playoffs 0 series wins/2 series losses) Sedin's - 0 Cups (playoffs 1 series wins/5 series losses) Heatley - 0 Cups (playoffs 1 series wins/1 series losses) Gaborik - 0 Cups (playoffs 2 series wins/1 series losses) Dipietro - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games Kovalchuck - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games Spezza - 0 Cups, (playoffs 1 series wins/2 series losses) Nash - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games Boowmeester - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games Eric Staal - 1 Cup Nathan Horton - 0 Cups, 0 Playoff games I can see how tanking and getting the top players leads to amazing success. Some of these STARS have never even made the playoffs. Tanking and getting high picks is no guarantee of success. Pittsburgh caught a miracle when they drafted Crosby. If Montreal had won that lotto instead we would not even be having this discussion. In the New NHL Pittsburgh has a 4 year window to win or those 4 players are going to eat the cap and they will have to lose 1 or 2 of them. 20 years ago the Pens would be set up for an Oiler type run. Things have changed. We are a borderline team and I would rather rebuild right now, but we do not have players who are so desirable that we can trade them for top picks or players. So we have to hold onto our youth and hope that some turn into stars and some turn into good 2nd liners. If Price becomes a Star and Lats as well then we have to make all the right moves in Free Agent signings. Lecavalier was drafted in 97 and won the Cup 7 years later. So on our time frame we tank next year, get a top 3 and wait another 7 years for Stanley? I think we are closer than that right now. We have one of the highest rated minor league systems in the NHL, all we need is a couple of those to turn into frontline NHLers and we will begin to make some noise.

To each his own I guess

3 weeks ago the Leafs embarked on a 5 game road trip 6 points out of the playoffs coming off a 8-2 loss to the Pens. @ CAR @ NYR @ STL @ OTT @ NAS They went 4-1. I looked at our schedule at the beginning of January and figure we would have to go 7-17 to fall out of the playoffs, looked at our opponents and said, no way. We will go .500 at worst. We can win the 3 home games. We take down the Jackets on the road and we will be ok. I know it is optimistic but crazy streaks have been happening all season. Anything is possible. At least I keep telling myself that so I can sleep at night.

You know how many great players were drafted after #10 in the Draft? I just listed a ton of All-Stars. You know how many terrible players were drafted before #10 in the Draft? The draft is a crap shoot, you are looking back at the Drafts and identifying players after they have blossomed. Hindsight is 20/20. Do you think if they redid the 1984 draft that Patrick Roy would go at number 51? Have you ever heard of Craig Redmond, David Quinn, Trevor Stienburg, Roger Belanger, Dave Pasin? Would you pick Ed Olczyk, Al Iafrate, Shawn Burr, Doug Bodger and JJ Daigneualt ahead of Patrick Roy? All of these players were valued as better picks than Roy in 1984. The Number 1 pick ended up with Mario Lemieux, the number 3 pick was Al Iafrate???? It is not a science. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1984e.html What does making the playoffs have to do with ability to sign Free Agents? It is about money. If you have the money to offer they will come. Unfortunately Montreal has to overpay, but be that as it may, you cannot make mistakes. Samsonov was a mistake, but only a 2 year mistake. The Leafs have just as many reporters in their face as the Habs do and they attract Free Agents. Montreal may be a shitty place to play when you are losing but it is also a great place to play when you are winning. If we had better drafts than we would be a better team. Simple as that.

2009 First overall would net you John Tavares! You are either selling the present, or selling the future. Unfortunately, we are caught in the middle somewhere

Only problem being that when your main core is a guy named Patrick Roy...anything is possible. Muller came over in 1991, and after getting smoked by the Bruins Corson and Courtnall were traded for Damphousse and Bellows. But the Stanley Cup 1993 edition were in first place overall with 6 weeks to go and ended up finishing in 3rd place in the Adams. I am sure they had some must win games that they came out flat in. If we can pull it together this weekend a mini streak will put us back in the 4th-6t seed. Pittsburgh has played .850 hockey for the last month Toronto has played .700 hockey for the last month NYIslanders are playing .660 hockey for the last month 1 if not all 3 of those teams are going to thud back down to earth in the last 25 games. Anything can happen.

I have stopped watching until they win a couple in a row. Personally it is all superstition. I hope that by giving up that they turn it around. I already tried by wearing my Patrick Roy jersey from 1987 that is 4 times to small for me, but alas that failed as well. But last night was the first game I did not watch essentially all year and what did I do. I had the Raptors game on while I checked Habsworld on my laptop. It is in the blood. I cannot ignore them, it is impossible. Let's just say it is a silent protest. Well, not really silent since I posted it on the board

Good post Beliveau1. The way I see it anybody who is jumping off the bandwagon would probably not be here in the first place. There are no rules set in stone as to how you support your team. This is a forum to set forth your point of view. Some may be stupid, some may be passionate and irrationale, some may be well thought out. WE all have our opinions on how to get this thing back on track, and I am frustrated, dissappointed and perplexed as to how to get back on a roll. Gainey and Carbo are busting their ass I am sure trying to figure it out and if this season goes down the drain and we make no moves so be it. Do we want a return to the Houle years where shortsighted moves placed this team in quicksand for close to 10 years. Have we forgotten 99-2002 when the CH became a joke? Even though we are struggling right now a 5 game win streak would put us back in 4th or 5th place. We have the MVP of the World Juniors in our minor league system and lots of young talent to build around and barring any huge raises to Ryder/Higgins/Perez, signing Markov to a $4 Million deal and allowing Souray/Rivet/Abby walk we will have close to $14 Million in Cap space to sign 4 Free Agents in the off season. The ship may be turbulent right now, but it is far from sinking. Carbo may not be the answer, but Gainey is learning alot from what is going on right now about his players and his young coaching staff.

Sure the last 7-8 years have yielded studs at 1st overall, but you need great trades, great free agent signings and great scouting to win the cup. All 3 are integral. Take a look at the last 5 stanley cup winners. Other than the Avs/Nordiques they have not relied on tanking to get them top picks. The Wings and Devils are head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to homegrown development and it shows in their results! 2006 Champions - Carolina Hurricanes Other than Eric Staal the rest came through trades, late picks and Free Agent signings. Ladd was 4th overall but did not exactly make our break their run 2nd Overall - Eric Staal 4th Overall - Andrew Ladd 25th Overall - Cam Ward 75th Overall - Erik Cole 91st Overal - Josef Vasicek 97th Overall - Nic Wallin 2004 Champions - Tampa Bay Lightning Lecavlier was the first overall pick but Brad Richards was stolen in the 3rd round, St. Louis was signed as a Free Agent and Boyle and Khabibulin were acquired through good trades 1st Overall - Vincent Lecavlier 179th Overall - Pavel Kubina 64th Overall Brad Richards 2003 Champions - New Jersey Devils If you want a team the proves your theory wrong here is the team. Even though they got Niedermayer at 3rd overall it came from a trade with Toronto for Tom Kurvers. All the rest of their impact players were drafted after number 20. Look at the players the Devils drafted and turned into other assets over the last 15 years: (Brain Rolston/Jason Smith/Sergei Brylin/Stephane Yelle/Brendan Morrison/SHELDON SOURAY/Steve Sullivan/Alyn McCauley/Chris Mason/Willie Mitchell/Mike Commodore. All of these players drafted after the first round. The only high pick they had that led to Stanley Cup glory was Shanahan in 87 at #2 which ended up netting them Scott Stevens. 3rd Overall - Scott Niedermayer 20th Overall - Martin Brodeur 27th Overall - Scott Gomez 49th Overall - Colin White 51st Overall - Patrick Elias 82nd Overall - Brain Gionta 2002 Champions - Detroit RedWings Once again superb drafting in later rounds and a different system in whcih they could spend money shaped this franchise...not tanking and getting a high pick. The other high pick that benefitted them was Keith Primeau at #3 who was traded for Shanahan. 4th Overall - Steve Yzerman 53rd Overall - Nik Lidstrom 74th Overall - Sergei Fedorov 59th Overall - Mathieu Dandenault 171st Overall - Pavel Datsyuk 210th Overall - Henrik Zetterberg 2001 Champions - Colorado Avalanche You have to go to the Quebec Nordiques and their futility to prove tanking or stinking helped build a winner. 1 Mats Sundin 1 Owen Nolan 1 Eric Lindros Those picks helped shape the team in that they acquired Forsberg/Ozolinsh/Claude Lemieux through those players, but they also made some great picks among their core and trades....I don't have to bring up the Patrick Roy fleecing. 15th Overall - Joe Sakic 22nd Overall - Adam Foote 72nd Overall - Chris Drury 87th Overall - Milan Hejduk 12th Overall - Alex Tanguay It is an excuse to claim that we do not get impact players because we do not suck bad enough. Where was Patrick Roy drafted? Where was Jose Theodore drafted? If you employ good scouts and develop properly from within you can still win a Stanley Cup. How many 1st overall picks turned out to be disasters and the reward for tanking turned out to be: Roman Hamrlik ALexandre Daigle Bryan Berard Chris Phillips Patrik Stefan All excuses. The Senators stunk for 5 years got top 5 picks every year and still have trouble getting through the second round and cannot beat a Toronto team who has been absolutely horrendous in developing homegrown talent.

A bandwagon fan is somebody who does not give a shit about a team 24/7 until they win, and as long as the continue to win that bandwagon fan remains a fan. When the team begins to lose and that fan loses interest and finds something else to do, THAT is jumping off the bandwagon. You want 2 examples, Colorado Avalanche - 10 straight years of sellouts, they become a borderline playoff team and the empty seats begin to appear Toronto Raptors - in 2001 with Vince Carter, 38 sellouts....the last 5 years...20 sellouts...the last 3 weeks 10 sellouts. Becoming frustrated from watching every night for 2 months as they show lack of effort and endure the tailspin of hell and trying to do superstitous things to get them back on track...not exactly the acts of somebody who does not care.

We are struggling so badly that why not just throw a puck on the ice and tell the players to outscore them. See what happens. Teaching them over and over how to leave the zone early and be defensively responsible is getting us knowhere? And WTF happened to our PK. If our PK stayed the same and everything else fell apart we would still be in 4th place. Did he lose the room?

Did you look at his roster in 91? http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues...0000371991.html He took those guys to the finals. The early 90s Stars were a pretty bad to average team.

Gainey handpicked Carbo, set him up as an Assistant coach to learn the ropes from him and handed him the head coaching job. He is not going anywhere! Gainey just does not roll like that. I have never felt this hopeless as a fan of any team in my life. You are either contending and selling the present, or you are rebuilding and selling the future. THERE IS NO IN BETWEEN. And where are we right now? ######ING IN BETWEEN!! Brutal, thank god I have the Raptors to distract me somewhat

I refuse to watch them until they prove to me they can win a game. I still find myself checking the score every 5 minutes but I cannot bring myself to watching a half assed effort with a coach who has no idea how to spark his team. We have lost 17 of our last 25 games. 17 of 25!!!!! And the best we get is Ninimaa playing forward?

Bob Gainey motivated them last year because Bob Gainey is a good coach. He took a terrible Northstars team to the Cup Finals in 1991, and it would seem he took a terrible habs team last year and had them 1 period away from knocking off the eventual Stanley Cup champion. I really do not know if I have the patience to sit and wait to find out if Carbo is a good coach. I find myself caught betweem a rock and a hard place. If Carbo is a good coach, it means our team stinks and if Carbo is a bad coach, then we are screwed because Gainey is patient and will not can him anytime soon.

WTF happened to this franchise? From the day I was born until the first time I saw them miss the playoffs in 95, it was considered a terrible season to get 90 points. Now we need shootout losses and OT losses to get to 90 and squeak an 8th seed. It is soo depressing.

I am waiting for them to pull a Leafs from last year. Drop far enough back that people start to jump off the wagon and then they rip off a hot streak to just miss the playoffs. They really are not showing any hunger at all. This is 5 straight losses. When does desperation kick in? Now Huet is out for who knows how long. And all we have to hold on to is praying that the Forum ghosts have annointed Halak the new saviour...wow sad

10 games ago

There is no doubt it is the system. We have not had a 100 point scorer since Mats Naslund and we have not had a 90 pt player since Damphousse and Turgeon in 1996. They have not had a PPG player since Damphousse in 97. What does that tell you about our system. I can deal with a conservative offense if you have a strong defense, I can deal with a conservative offense if we are going to be a contending team. But sitting back for 60 minutes against the dregs of the league like the Panthers hoping to catch them make a mistake while they do the same, leaves me wanting to poke my eyes out. Is that how you break out of a slump?? Florida is out of the playoffs for a reason. Put some pressure on their defense, force them to make mistakes. They are not going to make any mistakes if you passively forecheck them and sit back in the neutral zone. They have the scouting reports, they know our defense is apt to cough the puck up with a little pressure, and BINGO guess what happened. Why load up on speed if you are not going to utilize it? Why call up Kosty? He is going to be placed on the 3rd line and taught to play defense the Canadiens way. In 2 years we are going to wonder why the hell all of our prospects dried up? And that is because they are to afraid to jump in the play and take risks. Tonight is going to be just as painful to watch. Either Montreal will finally score first and sit in a shell hoping the Devils cannot score or they will give up the first and lose 2-0 or 3-0. I am holding out hope of a shocking upset to end the streak tonight...I can always hope!

LOL

This team is not a horrible team. They just have serious deficincies in areas that were covered up by supreme goaltending and special teams in the first half. This team could still make a jump next season but they need to acquire a first line center (sorry guys Koivu is not a 1st line center), this would fill our second line center need with Saku. We then need to resign Markov and place Streit back on D as they are the only 2 defensemen who can move the puck out of our zone. We then need to sign another puck moving defenceman because Souray, Rivet, Dandenault, Cube cough the puck up way to much when under a tough forecheck. You want to know why we struggle with the Leafs, because they forecheck hard and we cannot get it out of our zone. Then they jump on turnovers and send in the big talentless crew of forwards who cycle along the boards waiting for a mistake. We either make that mistake or we take a dumb penalty setting them up with the powerplay that they have been waiting for. To add to that we have almost no forecheck so we have guys like Samsonov, Kovalev, Koivu, Perezhogin trying to dance along the line to gain the zone. DUMP THE PUCK IN THE CORNER and go create. Teams are stacking the blueline because they know we will try to dipsy doodle by and try to create off the rush. Take a look at our 5 on 5 results....it ain't happening. This is the second time in a row this team sucked me in with early season success. From now on I will sit back and watch the games and take a prove to me over a season that you are a contender before I begin to get giddy. It seems the second I buy in they go into their winter swoon. A couple of acquistions and a little bit of freedom for the kids and we will be back on track.

With every passing day I start to believe that this is a system problem. How many times have we played Florida and both teams set up in the neutral zone with little forecheck and wait for each other to make the first mistake? Go look, how many goals have we scored against Florida in the last 3-4 years? We have zero forecheck and our forwards generally do not go past the hash marks when they do go in to forecheck. How many defensive zone turnovers do we create in a game? The Maple Leafs are winning hockey games with an aggressive forecheck with the following players in the lineup: Bates Battaglia/John Pohl/Travis Green/Boyd Devereux/Wade Belak/C. Kilger/J. O Neil/Ben Ondrus/Matt Stajan/Alex Ponikoravsky and Nik Antropov!! Are you telling me that we cannot compete with that lineup? It comes from the system. I am really dissappointed with Carbo, he has shown no ability to motivate and has juggled the lines to the point where nobody knows who they will be playing with the next day. I keep looking for a spark...but I can't fathom where it is going to come from.

Ottawa have always been gutless whiners who could never win the big game. And to be honest I still prefer those whiners to the arrogant Leaf Nation who believe that they are the center of the universe and the rightful home to the cup resides in Toronto even though most of them have never seen a Championship.

I said "he thought that it would be a good idea to place an image of Mike Tyson on his mask." Which he did. Muckler told him to take it off. Otherwise he would still be wearing it. Poor judgement then, poor judgement Saturday.